Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 4/2/2006 10:47:45 PM EDT
I know I need a form and have to get it notarized, but I dont know what form to get and I dont know where to send it.

Can anyone provide me a detailed explanation of how this is done?

Thanks
Matt
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:59:17 AM EDT
I do not have a trust, but I do know Florida only requires that it be notarized and witnessed. It does not need to be filed with the State. And I know many are using the "Willmaker" software (about $25) from Quicken to draft them.


Paging stangboy555.... Paging stangboy555....
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:50:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:51:12 AM EDT by snail50]
I'm looking to do this as well. Here's something I found on subguns or glocktalk (can't remember which, don't know who posted it), and the source seemed reliable (trust attorney). This is a cut & paste of the text:

--------QUOTE--------------

In Florida, a trust must not just be witnessed and notarized, it must be executed with the formalities of a Will to be legal.

As for LLC's being liability proof, generally not the case. While you may be protected by the corporate veil, a determined plaintiff can get a judgment and execute on the assets (i.e. your guns - and if they are NFA thats usually alot of $$$). Also, most people don't proprly maintain their corps or LLCs and often do the things that make piercing the corp veil easier. LLCs were not really started for more liability protection, but as a way to get partnership tax treatment (i.e pass through) for corps that did not meet the requirements of an S-Corp.

Also, you do not need to pay an attorney to act as the resident agent for a florida corp. you can be your own resident agent for free. You will have the $150/year corproate annual report fee to pay to Tallahassee. Other states may vary.

The Grantor is the one who establishes the Trust and the Trustee it the person in charge of the operation of the trust. If properly drafted an intervivos revocable trust should ideally have the Grantor and Trustee as the same person, therefore avoiding the need to file a separate tax return (1041) for the Trust itself. Any income or loss is passed through to the Grantor/Trustee and reported on your own return. Also Intervivos does not mean revocable or irrevocable, it means a trust established during your life time as opposed to a testamentary trust (established after your death by your will).

As far as whether the trust needs to be registered, in Florida there eis no such requirement. Again other states may vary so speak to a qualified professional (i.e. trusts and estates attorney). CPA's generally cannot draft trusts as it is the unlicensed practice of law. I like my CPA, but beyond the tax ramifications of a trust, he is clueless as to the legalities.

If you move to another state you will need to have a professional review your trust to make sure it meets the legal requirements of the new state (and possibly domesticate the entity in the new state) as well as notify the ATF by filing the appropriate form that you are moving. Whether Individual, Corporate, LLC, or Trust, if you move you have to be legal in the new state and have to notify the ATF prior to moving the NFA items across state lines. While a foreign entity can do business in another state (subject to certain requirements), you can't move the NFA items back and forth between states at will. They are tied to the state the entity is based out of. If you have a corp or trust in state A and live just across the state line in State B, you can go to State A and play with your toys, but you cannot bring them to State B without first notifying ATF and receiving the form back (I think F5320.20) approving the temporary move. To make a permanent move see above. In short, base the entity in your home state and move it to your new state if you move.

You do not have to modify or re-notarize the trust each time you add an item or sell an item. I fyou are Grantor and Trustee and the trust is properly drafted you can make additions to or sell items at will.

As for transferring NFA held by a corp. by selling the corp. That only works obviously if you are selling all the NFA assets held by the Corp to the Buyer. If you have a Uzi and an MP5 and only want to sell one item, then you can't sell the whole corp. And you can't sell 1/2 the stock and the new shareholder would have rights to all the corp assets (both guns). Also, you have to find a buyer who is willing to buy the corp to get the gun and buying the corp may also involve buying into potential liability for past acts fo the corp. That is which oftentimes small businesses are sold by way of an asset purchase agreement where you only buy the corp assets and goodwill (name) and not the corporation itself to avoid assuming any potential liability.

You can list anyone you want as your beneficiary. They are the ones that get the assets of the trust at your death. If you are bequeathing the NFA items to them the need to be qualified to own them. In the alternative you can provide that the successor trustee liquidate the items and distribute the cash to the beneficary or beneficiaries.

When filling out the Form 4 I advise including a copy of the whole trust. Who cares if ATF knows who your beneficiaries are.

A transfer to a corp or trust does not require Fingerprints or photos (cant fingerprint an entity). I still have the transferree sign the Citizenship form. Fill in the name of the trust or corp and then fill in your name asa trustee and sign.

As far as asset protection, it is hard for a potential plaintiff to know if you have a trust. In FL at least it is not registered. So the only ones who know you have it are you and the ATF. However, I an not an asset protection attorney so I would not be able to say with any certainty if this would give complete protection. If you bought NFA in someone elses name you could not possess the items yourself and woulf have to have them with you to be able to take them out and shoot.

When I do an NFA Trust I set them up specifically for NFA items and advise my clients to not rely on the document for their general estate planning needs. Keeps the whole thing nice and neat.

------------------END QUOTE------------------------
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 7:54:21 AM EDT
Wow, that was very informative. Thanks for the replies!

So basically I should go get the Willmaker software, have it notarized and then send it in?

Do you know exactly where I need to send it?

We need the instructions as a sticky in this forum!

Link Posted: 4/3/2006 8:39:34 AM EDT
just fyi.


i did mine through.

bob j howell p.a.
4801 s. university drive. suite 138
davie, fl 33328

look at under $500.00 for everything

phone # (954)-252-8889 please note: his secretary is a bit scittish, so if you call just ask to talk to bob about a living trust.. once you talk to him you can talk class 3 all you want. very quick and one hell of a document..

if you want to keep it local (well in fla at least)
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:01:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:17:19 PM EDT
...
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:47:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AZATHOTH777:
just fyi.


i did mine through.

bob j howell p.a.
4801 s. university drive. suite 138
davie, fl 33328

look at under $500.00 for everything

phone # (954)-252-8889 please note: his secretary is a bit scittish, so if you call just ask to talk to bob about a living trust.. once you talk to him you can talk class 3 all you want. very quick and one hell of a document..

if you want to keep it local (well in fla at least)



Huge +1 for Bob. He is also a Class III dealer so he can get you whatever toys you want once you're up and running.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 6:47:54 AM EDT
My three F4's just got approved, I had a Trust created with Willmaker 33 Days mailbox to mailbox.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 7:44:54 AM EDT
Legal Zoom


And they sent me a .doc file explaining everything.

Here is the 1MB document, right click and save...
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 8:41:12 AM EDT
Thanks for that info, KF.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 9:36:11 AM EDT
thanks for all the info guys, Ill probably just go with Bob, when I go back down to south florida!
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 6:08:24 AM EDT
I went LLC for $115
Very simple
Have form 1 submitted
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:24:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 7:24:40 AM EDT by in_burrito]

Originally Posted By Punani:
I went LLC for $115
Very simple
Have form 1 submitted


The reason I didn't go that route, and the reason I decided to go with the trust instead, is that the LLC requires "upkeep" in the form of IRS paperwork every year and state fees to keep it active. Let's say you buy an Outback II for $300 and pay the $200 transfer. You now have a can that cost, in real money, $500. Let's say the state charges you $100/year to maintain your LLC. In 5 years your Outback II has now cost you $1000 while mine has cost me $900 ($500 initial investment, $400 for setting up the trust). In 10 years your Outback II has cost you $1500 , while mine has still only cost me $900.

Obviously if you buy more items (SBR, FA, more suppressors) the cost gets spread over all of the items, but in the long run the trust is still the more economically sound choice. Even more so if you are willing to form the trust yourself and essentially have $0 startup costs.

The one advantage to the LLC and/or individual ownership is that you can take the items with you if you ever move out of state. Personally I'm a Florida boy and I'm going to stay a Florida boy so it's not a concern for me. If I wanted to move somewhere else I'd have to pay $200 to transfer the items to a corp or to myself all over again in a new location.

The other advantage in the corp is that you can always add people to it later on. I don't know how difficult it is to add people to an existing trust.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 7:27:15 AM EDT
you're saying that with a revocable trust, you'd have to re-transfer all the NFA items to yourself/the trust again if you move to another state?
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 8:07:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By snail50:
you're saying that with a revocable trust, you'd have to re-transfer all the NFA items to yourself/the trust again if you move to another state?


I believe that is the case. It is my understanding that the trust is state-specific.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 11:43:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:

Originally Posted By snail50:
you're saying that with a revocable trust, you'd have to re-transfer all the NFA items to yourself/the trust again if you move to another state?


I believe that is the case. It is my understanding that the trust is state-specific.



Sounds like a real downer if that's the case. Anyone know what the next brouhaha at ATF is concerning trust? Someone (at the ATF) was telling me that the ATF may begin treating trusts like individuals, i.e. fingerprint cards, ect. Don't quote me on it and don't jump on my back since I'm bot 100% positive what it means.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 12:45:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2006 12:46:16 PM EDT by HollowPoint40]
Get a co. from a mynewcompany.com


you can get anything you could get with a class 3, without sheriff signing off for it.

Link Posted: 4/6/2006 12:55:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:

Originally Posted By Punani:
I went LLC for $115
Very simple
Have form 1 submitted


The reason I didn't go that route, and the reason I decided to go with the trust instead, is that the LLC requires "upkeep" in the form of IRS paperwork every year and state fees to keep it active. Let's say you buy an Outback II for $300 and pay the $200 transfer. You now have a can that cost, in real money, $500. Let's say the state charges you $100/year to maintain your LLC. In 5 years your Outback II has now cost you $1000 while mine has cost me $900 ($500 initial investment, $400 for setting up the trust). In 10 years your Outback II has cost you $1500 , while mine has still only cost me $900.

Obviously if you buy more items (SBR, FA, more suppressors) the cost gets spread over all of the items, but in the long run the trust is still the more economically sound choice. Even more so if you are willing to form the trust yourself and essentially have $0 startup costs.

The one advantage to the LLC and/or individual ownership is that you can take the items with you if you ever move out of state. Personally I'm a Florida boy and I'm going to stay a Florida boy so it's not a concern for me. If I wanted to move somewhere else I'd have to pay $200 to transfer the items to a corp or to myself all over again in a new location.

The other advantage in the corp is that you can always add people to it later on. I don't know how difficult it is to add people to an existing trust.



Correct. One of the reasons I went LLC is that I'd rather engrave my company name into a lower than my name.
And I'm sure my LLC will come in handy for other things. More NFA toys
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 3:10:01 PM EDT
My trust is my name, so if I was going to engrave a lower it would still be engraved with my name. I'm going with a Colt 6933 so I don't have to engrave anything.
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 3:14:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2006 5:33:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
My trust is my name, so if I was going to engrave a lower it would still be engraved with my name. I'm going with a Colt 6933 so I don't have to engrave anything.



My name is not that easy, the lower would be un-sellable
Link Posted: 4/7/2006 9:00:33 AM EDT
It sounds like a good thing might have to try it!

IF you have a Class 3 can you use CANS?


I shot a mack in 45acp ? Boy it was kinda hard to hold in place!

380 or under would be better for me
Top Top