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Posted: 5/19/2005 9:56:27 PM EDT
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Saw these of POF's website. Basically just a clone of the HK416. Just wanted to see if anyone has one and what they are like or if anyone has any info on them Heres a link to their website. Seems a little high for an AR upper but...I dunno...what do you guys think? POF 416 
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I saw the POF 416 upper and rifle at the 2005 SHOT Show. Frank from POF was kind enough to explain the 416 to me at the DSA booth. I think the upper looks great, and I have heard a lot of praise from DSA, and LCW who DuraCoated the rifle for Shotgun News and SHOT. The price of the upper is high, but is very well made. I don't shoot my ARs enough to justify a POF upper right now. However, if HK did release the 416 upper I would buy one, just to add to the HK collection. Chris |
If the POF 416 is a HK 416 clone then a Pontiac Fiero is a Ferrari clone. Just because it is a piston operated AR does not mean it is a HK 416. Just like a Fiero may have two seats, four wheels and a mid engine but, it is not a Ferrari. The POF system is an old long stroke design adapted to the AR. The HK system is new short stroke design and uses HK's patented G36/XM8/SL8 piston. I'd bet my last dollar that in reliability testing, the HK 416 would beat the POF 416 every time. You may get many years of great service out of a POF 416 but it is not a HK 416 clone. |
+1 |
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Maybe I can clarify. Both design's are gas piston operated systems. Both system were displayed at the 2004 Shot Show. We continued to build and display our system at the 2005 Shot Show. Our gas piston system is available to all. The gas piston uppers on the AR operating system is nothing new. Colt did this back in 1968. Both systems ARE short stroke. The piston pushes the bolt carrier for a very short distance before the bolt carrier continue's it's path to the rear of the buffer tube ejecting the empty then the return spring returns the bolt carrier to the chamber picking up the next round from the mag. Both systems use old operating systems that are new to the AR operating system. HK uses the old AR-18 design on their G36, XM8, and their gas piston AR operating system. We use an operating system similar to the FAL. The only difference is we employ a two piece piston/op-rod design. We have built the system using a return spring on the op-rod which Troy Industries is marketing. Best regards, Frank Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF-USA) www.POF-USA.com |
honestly, great customer service is what would make me want to buy that product over the HK. I still think piston uppers are a waste of my money but if I was to buy one I'd go for POF. |
I stand corrected. The FAL system is indeed short stroke.
Not true. The HK gas piston is totally different and patented new design. The AR-18/AR-180/AR180B gas system uses a fixed piston surrounded by a reciprocating cylinder with bleed holes to vent pressure near the end of the stroke:  The HK uses a fixed cylinder with a reciprocating piston that has a regulating tip. It is an advanced system where the design of the tip, along with the forward vent, control the pressure impulse. This gives a smother, more consistent force and results in increased reliability and durability:  HK has a long track record of designing and manufacturing top quality military and police firearms for nations around the world. They are acknowledged as having one of the finest firearms research, development, engineering and manufacturing staff and facilities anywhere. The name HK is synonymous with quality firearms. The time, money, skill, research and testing that goes into a HK design could not possibly be equaled by a small company with comparatively little firearms design experience. I have nothing against Frank, his product or customer service but, by calling his product POF-416, it looks as if he is trying to mislead people into thinking they are buying a clone or something equivalent to a HK-416. Just look at the post that started this thread. Instead of trying to move in on another company's reputation, if the product is good, give it it's own name and it will develop it's own good reputation. I doubt you will ever see Leitner-Wise calling their AR gas piston system the LW-416. And, as for all the ragging on HK's customer service, I'm almost certain that it comes from people have no actual experience with it. I have met Mark from HK customer service and he is a nice guy. I know of several times where he went above and beyond to help people out. Just because you call HK and ask them to start making HK94s in their new US factory and they say no, does not equal crappy customer service. |
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HKrazy, Your well informed. Thanks for the great pictures. Our gas piston design is similiar to the the FAL system like HK's gas piston system is similiar to the AR18. Both system are patent pending new designs. Both systems are similiar to old designs. When HK bought themself's back from British Ordnance, they also aquired "Sterling" which manufactured the AR18 for many years. For the record we have been selling our P-4 tactical rail system well before HK displayed their M4 enhanced gas piston system at the 2004 Shot Show. We both displayed gas piston systems at the 2004 shot show. Other gas piston systems being displayed at the 2005 shot show other then our system, looked just like HK's gas piston design. Our system is very different. We are the only system that is able to be disassembled without the need to remove the hand guards. Just turn the 90° gas plug to remove the gas piston for maintance. Thanks again. Best regards, Frank |
Again, you are incorrect. The HK gas piston is in no way similar to the AR18. Both are tappet and rod type designs but the pistons and cylinders are 100% different. Look again at the pictures I posted above. One uses a fixed piston, the other uses a moving piston. One uses multiple vents at the bottom of the cylinder, the other uses a single vent at the top of the cylinder. How much more different could they be?? Continued insistence that they are similar is puzzling.
Not when it comes to the heart of the system, the gas piston. The POF 416 uses a fifty year old FAL piston design, who's patent has expired. The HK 416 uses a newly patented, advanced piston design, adapted to the AR by one of the worlds best military firearms manufactures.
What is amazing is that gas piston ARs have been around for years but, it was not until HK came out with one, that suddenly everybody decided they had to have one. If there is any confusion it is not helped by POF's misleading people into thinking that their design is a clone of or related to the HK design. Most HK enthusiasts I know own ARs and remember the Rhino and other piston systems and therefore don't think HK came up with the idea. HK did not make the gas piston AR first, just best. |
Just read in Rifle Shooter's special AR edition about the POF design. The reveiwer seemed very confident that the POF system is the better between HK and POF. Unless you have had first hand experience with both systems (what about Leitner-Wise), I suggest you leave the analysis to others. |
Oh my god, I can't stop laughing.  Let's see, a tiny company with zero history or experience and no military contracts is making a better product than a company with one of the best reputations in the business, a huge R&D budget, tons of military contracts and a gas piston AR that is currently in use in the sandbox. Next you will be telling me that Special Weapons is better than HK because you read it in a magazine.
As you have no idea what my experience level with firearms is, I suggest you mind your own business. |
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HKrazy, You prefer the HK system, and hopefully they will sell you one. Both system are similar to old designs. I did state "similar". Colt designed a gas piston system in 1968. They were the first. We both displayed our gas piston systems at the 2004 Shot Show. We know many people that have shot the HK system and have told us. A flash signature (like a muzzle flash), comes out the front of the HK gas block when fired, and the flash is larger when a suppressor is used. The flash is easy to see at night. HK changed their carrier design then the carrier at the 2004 Shot Show. They moved the face of the mechanical key behind the cam key, like our carrier design we displayed at the 2004 Shot Show. We offer a gas piston system that is a different design and have been selling them very well. And yes we are a growing small company and proud of that fact. Like any large company on the market, they once were a small company that grew to a large company over the years. Wish you the best, and hope you get the weapon system of your choice. Free enterprise and having choices is what makes this country great. Best regards, Frank |
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HKrazy - what is your problem? Do you have experience with both systems? Even if you have, you are completely biased and your analysis would mean nothing to me and possibly others here as well. I don't understand how you can sit at your desk and type that the HK's design is superior JUST because of their name. Also, because POF and Leitner-Wise systems are developed by small firms doesn't mean that the system are inferior. Its not how much money you throw at a problem, its how you address the problem. |
I just thought I might as well sum up the discussion. |
I have provided photographs and descriptions to show that there is no real similarity especially in the piston design. Your continued instance that the AR18 is similar to the HK system only shows your lack of understanding of firearms design.
And the POF system explodes with a suppressor. Thats an improvement? A friend purchased a POF gas piston upper at the SAR show in Phoenix and when he tried it with a suppressor, it blew up . The HK 416 won't blow up when you put a suppressor on it. Yet another example of the HK's superior engineering.
Yes, my observations are based on actual experience, not what I read on the internet or what's printed in some gun rag. I have been to HK demonstrations and I have fired thousands of rounds with the HK gas system. I have examined but never fired a POF 416. However, I know several people who bough a POF system and have gotten their money back.
I enjoy how you can decide that I am biased. Based on what? If you read my previous posts you will find that I've stuck to the facts. I can assure you I am not biased towards any company and evaluate each firearm on it's merits. Just because HK makes something does not mean it is great. The HK UMP is, hands down, the worst sub gun I have ever fired. The only reason I responded to this thread was not to promote or defend HK but, because calling the POF 416 a clone of the HK 416 is incorrect and misleading. POF chose to copy HK's name to cash in on HK's reputation, not the other way around. Unfortunately Frank's refusal to admit to that the HK and AR18 designs are totally different even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, his lack of explaining why he chose to take HK's product name and his continued instance that both are based on old designs reminds me of a snake oil salesman. A little bit of truth and a whole lot of BS. There is an old saying "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" The claim that the POF 416 is equal or better than a HK 416 is an extraordinary claim. Where is the proof? And natedogg42, your summation of my posts shows an alarming lack of reading comprehension. Now, why don't you go out and play hide and go fuck yourself. |
 You'll have to admit, that was pretty funny
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You find the juvenile ranting of a person who can't enter an discussion logically and can only resort to personal attacks funny? It's more like sad.
I'm sure they are many intelligent people reading this thread who appreciate the sharing of actual experience and knowledge. I'm also sure that due to the deterioration of quality and groundless personal attacks they are long gone. I would however, like to most humbly apologize for injecting some reality into your little fantasy world. |
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Actually, I did think it was pretty funny. And everyone that started personal attacks are taking away from the point of this thread ( FACTS ) No one can really objectively say one thing or another about either system because neither have been extensively used by enough people involved in this discussion. Time, trials, personal experiences will tell the tale. I'd suggest that only people that own or operate POF uppers & HK uppers make statements on the systems because the rest is speculation at best. Just my opinion though  Also, I'd like to ask a question... where and who are using the HKs in the sandbox ? Are they being used in actualy combat or just being desert tested ? How many are being field tested ? Just wondering... |
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HKrazy, Didn't want this post to become a pissing match with personal attacks. If you wish to contact me direct to discuss any issue you have with me or our company please feel free to contact me at 623-561-9572. I hope best for you and hope you get the weapon system you prefer. Best regards, Frank |
Huh? Maybe you need to re-read the thread and then tell me who got personal. Your baseless attacks on my credibility and ridiculous request that I not give my opinions and finally asking me "what my problem" was is what lead to my response. You asked a question, I gave you an honest answer. If you don't like it or can't handle it, tough. Good bye and good riddance. As for natedog. He asked for it ten times over. Bones21: When it comes to evaluating a gun, no one person could fire enough rounds to do a total evaluation so, even if they have experience with a weapon, any one persons opinion is just that. However, this is an open forum and everyone is entitled to have and express their opinion, even if they only play Airsoft. Really, the best test for a military firearm is actual military service. As for HK 416 in the sandbox, a civilian contractor told me he saw US soldiers over there with HK 416s a while ago. An HK rep told me that the HK 416 is serving in action with elite units and getting great reviews. As these units operate in secrecy, there is little info or pictures. The gas piston for the HK416 is the exact same piston found in the G36, XM8 and SL8. So, there are all ready thousands rifles of similar design in the field. If there were any problems with it, we should know by now. If anyone is interested in a first hand account and pictures of the HK 416 here is a link: HK 416 range report Frank - I have no issue with you personally. My only problem is that I feel that using HK's name for your product is misleading. I never told anyone not to buy your product. My interest in posting this info is to eliminate confusion and educate potential customers of the difference between your product and the one who's name it took. I wish you the best of luck with your system. |
I did re-read it and I didn't personally attack you. You jump onto this thread saying that the HK product was superior and the POF design was inferior WITHOUT any proof (am I just supposed to accept your word without any proof?). I asked for proof, thats a personal attack? Then you had a temper tantrum and I asked what your problem was, thats a personal attack? Just so this doesn't happen again, if you see a post that is started by me, do us both a favor and avoid and I will do the same for your posts. |
That last post was so far from the truth, I don't Know where to start. But here goes:
Here are some quotes from your posts:
If those aren't personal attacks, what is??
I have provided lots of information that you have chosen to ignore.
No where in any of your post did you ask me for proof. Only tell me I have no Idea what I am talking about. The only question you asked me was "whats my problem" and I gave you an answer.
Saying "Oh my god, I can't stop laughing" is a temper tantrum?? As what I said is clearly not a temper tantrum, i'll just chalk this up as another baseless personal attack.
Sorry no deal. This is an open forum any anyone is welcome to reply to any post they choose. According to you, anyone who does not agree with you is incompetent and should not post. You have contributed nothing to this thread other that attack me and when I got a little irritated and told you you were being a dork, you whined that I'm attacking you. Dude... you need a reality check. |
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HKrazy, Reguardless of your battle field experience with all of the gas piston set ups, (which I would bet my sack is absolutley none) if you want a mature conversation, act like an adult. YOU, were the first one to throw out a personal attack, and sadly, it was directly at a manufacturer who actually gives a shit about the American civilian market. It's apparent you do have a knowledgeable backing to your firearms debate, but only wanting to hear your side of the story, is only talking to yourself. Talking down on others opinons for the simple fact they don't agree with yours, is not a competent decision. Also, could you please post more info and/or pictures of the blown up POF upper. Was POF notified of this failure? If it was noted, how did you guys (POF) go about the incident. All I want is facts. Your opinion doesn't mean shit to me. So in short, debating with out proof, is just talking to yourself. Please try to keep it mature and logical. (IE; Talking down on others doesn't make your opinion fact) Many of us here want truthful answers, not spewed out jibberish trying to be passed off as truthful fact. POF, After the way HKrazy has been addressing you, I applaud you for your ability to keep your cool. |
People keep posting in this thread and it is obvious that they are criticizing me without even reading what I had to say.
I never said I had battlefield experience so your sack is safe. I have never attacked Frank personally. I do have a problem with his business practices and I spelled them out.
Go back and read the thread. I have provides pictures descriptions and references to corroborate what I am saying. If I hadn't, how would you know that I was knowledgeable about firearms. Not one other poster has provided any factual information. On the contrary most are just attacking me because they don't like what I have to say.
I don't have pictures but POF immediately refunded his money. If you want more info call Frank. I know he loves to talk about it.
Calling my posts gibberish is mature and logical ? Despite cries to the contrary, I have provided factual information. It is others who feel they have to put me down. If you think any of my facts are B.S. please point them out and I will be happy to discuss it in a mature fashion.
As I said, I never attacked Frank personally. But, I am entitled to my opinion about his business practices. I still have to wonder why he has chosen not to address any of my questions about his marketing of the POF 416 such as why he took HK's name and graphics. Other than having both rifles in front of me, I could not give a better explanation of why the HK 416 and AR18 gas systems are totally different. Yet, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, Frank could not admit that he was wrong. Why, because it interferes with his ability to say that both the POF 416 and HK 416 are based on old designs. In fact the HK is a new design and POF is and old design but that does not sound good when you are selling POF 416s. Even though he knows it, he never said "your right the POF 416 is not a HK 416 clone" because he wants people to think that it is a clone even though it is not true. Then, when I brought up the POF 416 failure, suddenly he does not want to discuss it in public any more and tells me to call him. He didn't deny it. If the POF 416 a good product then why not give it it's own name and sell it on it's own virtues instead of trying to fool people. |
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Ok, shit ! You guys, go somewhere else and argue all this bullshit. You have completely gotten off track of the point of the topic. I don't recall Rem700PSS asking for a pissing contest when he started this thread.... so have some respect and stick to the facts and first hand experiences ( not observations, read reviews, opinions, etc.. ) Would you want your threads to be highjacked to the point where it produces absolutely useless information  I know I wouldn't want that for myself, so have some respect and get back on target or shut up ! |
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Quoted: I don't recall Rem700PSS asking for a pissing contest when he started this thread.... so have some respect and stick to the facts and first hand experiences ( not observations, read reviews, opinions, etc.. ) Exactly. HKrazy, my point was that you assume HK's design is the end to all. You do not know it is the best. You were challenged of your knowledge on the subject earlier, and you told the guy he has no clue what you know so he should mind his own business. That is a clear implication that you are in the know, when you're really not. Until you have battle field experience with all of the current piston uppers, don't bother. Then you call people names because they don't think your opinion is relevant to a factual conversation. When I said your opinion doesn't mean shit, I wasn't saying specifically to me, I meant to this whole topic. I never said your facts were BS, I was talking about your over stated unfactual opinion. If you would have stuck to facts alone, this topic would not have gotten ruined. I know you'll come back with something you think is witty, so do it by private message as your words have became worthless to many people reading this topic. |
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I'll skip the wit and stick to the facts: FACT - a POF 416 blew up with a silencer. Frank knew they had never tested their product with a silencer so, he refunded the money. If it were not true, don't you think he would have said so? FACT - HK 416s do not blow up with a silencer. Frank's own description of the flash signature is proof that even he knows the HK 416 works with silencers. He is the one that brought the subject of silencers up, not me. FACT - HK, SIG, FN or any other major military arms manufacturer have much more thorough testing programs and would never let a rifle who's design blew up with a silencer, ship to a customer. FACT - Frank can't admit when he is when he is wrong and was no longer interested in participating in this discussion once the POF 416 failure came up. FACT - Any claims that I was biased for HK and just out to get POF are debunked by the fact that I knew about the failure at the beginning of the thread but, did not bring it up until Frank continued to misrepresent the HK 416 and others asked for proof of the HK's superiority. I tried to be nice by only saying at first that the POF 416 was not the equivalent of a HK 416. I did not come right out and say don't buy it, it's an exploding piece of junk, even though I could have. I'm sorry if my tone has been rude but, when you actually do know what you are talking about and a bunch of people tell you that you are a know nothing mall ninja, it is a little irritating. |
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