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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - bw5-fs quick range report (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/7/2005 6:41:15 AM EDT
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Well, I said some time ago, that I wouldn't get one. Being curious, I though on it and decided to go for it. Once it arrived, I was pleased with the fit and finish. They did goof on the order and sent the metal lower, but I found out when it shipped and they sent the right one-which was a screw up on their part which Andy denies. I apparantly got the last plastic lower as well, They said the new ones will be ambi with a different selector? The flapper mag release is my only issue, I would like to find one that I saw somewhere that has a small spring on it to limit the "flapping" is this normal? Anyhow, I ran 290 rounds through it, 100% ! I used Winchester 115 ball, 7 HK mags(beaters) 2 of the aftermarket supplied 30 rounders and 2 10 rounders. I got it pretty warm at the end and dumped a couple in a row. I believe this puppy is smoother to shoot than the UZI and Colt system 9mm's that I've shot. I'm debating on the Surefire M63(have it now) or the Surefire integrated forend. I had a Top-notch retractable that was returned and hopefully replaced with a tighter one, if not, I will return it for refund and find an HK one. That did piss me off, when I called and inquired about the slop, the reply was " well I have an HK here for x # of $'s" and your lucky you didn't get a Turkisg one, they move around about 2 inches. Screw that! That stock moved up and down at least 1/2" when installed, I just looked at a buddy's and it doesn't move a bit. Right now, I'm not to trusting of Top notch, they also sent me two used extractor springs claiming to be new. They are replacing them with two new gold colored ones though. More than likey, this thing will be SBR'ed I'm still waiting on my AR paperwork, 3 months now  Mark |
+1 I'd love to "retire" my HK94, but... Still fear the unreliability reports. |
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I was leary of the same thing, but nearly every report was related to the extractor and the spring. A close friend fixed a SW that was having the fte issues -extractor and spring. What puzzled me was why they were having those problems for so long without fixing them in lieu of taking chances and fixing them after the product went out and failed. I inquired about the issues with Bobcat before buying and was satisfied with the response. They didn't deny what the problems were, just that they had corrected them and the current production runs were working fine. I think people may get one that was an older one that has been floating in the supply chain for a while and may exibit the problems noted. So far, I can say that I'm more pleased with the Bobcat purchase than I was with the Vector/UZI one, although those issues were corrected. Mark |
| Mark, you are aware that 100% of all the parts used are Top Notch / SW parts. I bought a real Hk extractor, spring, and ejector and it didn't fix the issue. Upon receiving my Bobcat back they had tightened my mag well so tight my Hk mags will hardly go in and you have to fight them in! Every inside moving parts was replaced ...and ... the trigger pack didnt work! They are mailing me a new one. I would think the bugs should be worked out by now! |
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I know the parts are and I knew that mine were not Hk. I'm not defending anyone, just trying to inject reason and not just bitch about things without giving first hand knowledge from my experiences so far. I know how upset(first hand knowledge)someone can be about a weapon that doesn't workright, regardless of it's intended legal use. I feel for you and hope that your stuff is squared away soon! Mark |
| Hey sabre, my Bobcat runs fine. Just rubbing it in a little. Seriously though, I think quality control must be real issue with Bobcat. I've put close to 500 rounds through mine with only one jam. I attributed the jam to the ammunition. I'm glad that I've been one of the lucky ones with mine, knock on wood. I would be curious to know for a fact, How many total units they've sold, and what percentage have been returned for repair. I wouldn't expect Andy to be too forth coming with a true answer though. |
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mark5pt56 Quote, "I had a Top-notch retractable that was returned and hopefully replaced with a tighter one, if not, I will return it for refund and find an HK one. That did piss me off, when I called and inquired about the slop, the reply was " well I have an HK here for x # of $'s" and your lucky you didn't get a Turkisg one, they move around about 2 inches. Screw that! That stock moved up and down at least 1/2" when installed, I just looked at a buddy's and it doesn't move a bit. Right now, I'm not to trusting of Top notch, they also sent me two used extractor springs claiming to be new. They are replacing them with two new gold colored ones though." I only wrote about Top Notch parts because of your quote on the A3 stock. Ask Vinnie 935 about his A3 stock? My gripe is that I SBR'd mine ($200) and bought oodles of accessories, like an Hk A3 stock which is awesome and fits great, and it runs like crap. I just got it back from Andy and note that every inside moving part was replaced. I havent been able to shoot it yet but will tomorrow. Im done responding to all the good or bad posts of Bobcat or SW, so for those looking to buy use your own judgement of what you have been reading...And thats first hand ownership experience! |
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Dude, not saying your were the one spouting hearsay, just making a statement. What's the skinny on the A3 stock that vinnie has? I'm hoping that the replacement is tight, if not, I'll have to find an HK one. Wade did say that the new batch of stocks would have the metal cap on the back vs. the plastic one. In addition, they would be tighter as well. Mark |
| mark5pt56, The Top- Notch A3 stock that I have has a little slop in it . I'm also not happy with the plastic end cap. Mine does not fit flush with back of the stock. I do like the finish. It matches my Bobcat very well. And it operates really smoothly. I don't know if sabre will agree, but I think that it functions as smoothly as his HK retractable. I originally had what I think was one of the Turkish A3s, the finish didn't match my Bobacat at all, and while it worked, it was very sloppy. Almost 1.5" of play in it, and it retracted very roughly. I really can't afford a real Hk and have just convinced my self that you get what you pay for. I've just decided to accept the Top-Notch part for what it is, an HK knock-off. Bobcat, SW, and Top-Notch, are not and never will be Hk. And unless you can afford to buy a real Hk, you just have to accept the clones with all of thier faults and weaknesses. |
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Vinnie, Hey, Obviously you two know each other and have seen each others clones. Based on my experiences, no maker is immune from problems, some more than others. I had the same observations with my A3 that was American made. I decided the extra was worth it and got the real HK stock. I though long about the real thing and decided that spending 3-4k wasn't worth it to me. I'm actually contemplating getting another clone, maybe the PDW or a twin to the fs-need to move two nice AK's though! Mark |
| Mark, about your question regarding the flapper spring, I was told that the flappers on the Bobcats were installed through what would be the pin hole on a full auto reciever, and then welded in place. Take this for what it's worth to you, but I was told by Andy, that to install the no rattle paddle, you would have to remove the ledge that the front of the lower receiver rests on, and then grind through the welds holding the flapper in place, remove the old flapper, install the new flapper, weld it into place, then reweld the ledge back into place. At least that's how I interpreted Andy's explanation. Sounded like more trouble then it was worth to me. I'm just going to live with the rattle. |
 congrats on the Bobcat/sw5Im glad you got a good one. You have more balls than me. I have been wanting to over look the negative comments about SW and pick one up but couldnt seem to get past toady. Then Bobcat came on radar and I waited for positive feed back. Yours is the second thumbs up I have read. The only bobcat5 I saw was down at Blackwater at an USPSA match that we had a rifle stage on. That damn thing didnt run more than 10 rounds before something in the trigger pack gave up. Do you ever get down there and shoot the USPSA match we have on the 3rd Sunday of the month. Unless your talking this month then the match is this sunday 3/13/05. I sure would like to look at your rifle.  We have a class for duty rigs.Who are you going have do the barrel when you SBR it? |
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udog, It has the fake can, the barrel underneath already has the 3 lug, so I'm set after I send it off and get the paperwork back. I was supposed to be down there this sunday to train, but I have to cover days:( Other than hearing reports on the web, my only experience is mine and a SW one that had the extractor and it's springs replaced-that made it run 100% afterwards. I was given one of those Asian mags, after loading it and then down loading it, I decided it's going to the show this weekend at Hampton. It was hanging up then dumping 3 or 4 rounds at a time so I decided that it wasn't worth trying it in the weapon. So if people are using those, that could be a source of problems. Mark |
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Not to hijack, but I got a BW5-FSC yesterday and took it to the range this afternoon for a quick 100 round feeding of cheap Walmart Winchester target rounds. When I got in the stall, I loaded all four (3 factory straight 30 rounders and 1 curved mag that came with the BW5) magazines with 10 rounds and commenced to firing. All rounds fed, fired and extracted fine. So then I loaded up a straight mag with all 30 rounds and I had feed problems starting after the third round had been fired. More specifically, the bolt would not go all the way forward so I locked the bolt back and saw that there was a live round 3/4 of the way in the chamber. So I pried it out with a small screw driver. This lasted for about 5 rounds then was fine. I then loaded up the curved mag with 30 rounds and all fed, fired, and extracted fine. With the limited time I had with it, sounds like I have a magazine issue. However, when I have more time, I will load up all 4 mags with 30 rounds and see what happens. In the interim I have ordered a TN gold extractor just in case the dreaded FTE starts up. All in all, I am satisfied on the results. I knew what I was getting into and there was no way I was going to spend 4k on a real HK94, so this was the next best thing. DW |
| Mark5pt56, Yes Vinnie and I know each other and shoot together. He's just picking on me because I bought my BW5...then he saw it a bought one as well. Now Im having all this trouble and he's raging on me. Ive tried to convince him that the Hk A3 stock was worth the extra cost but hes on a budget. I shot my BW5 today after getting it back from Andy and no FTE's...but the bolt carrier has about .050" of side to side play. I think this is excessive but Andy says it needs the loose fit. Does your bolt carrier have alot of play side to side in the receiver? |
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I bet he offered you a 100 b's for the thing as you cussed! I don't think I have that much play, I really haven't looked at that. Hey, if that blaster runs now, let it be. I know how you feel, it took Vector a new gun and new parts for the second one to make it run right, irritating as can be. Mark |
The bolt/carrier should have no play, side-to-side or up-to-down. Dunno who told you that was ok...it's not. My HK94 has no play; if it did, I'd be sending it back to HK for repairs. |
I just got it back! Bobcat says its supposed to be that way!!! Somebodys lieing!, and I dont think its Hk. |
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Sabre, I have replaced every critical part of my SW5SBR to make it run. The problem was FTE and the only thing that cured it was the newest style GERMAN ejector lever. I'll condense this post some: The following have been replaced. 1) SW cast bolt carrier, replaced with older model that is machined and welded. 2) Bolt head (HK) 3) Extractor (HK) 4) Extractor spring (HK) 5) Locking piece (HK) 6) +2 rollers (HK) 7) firing pin and spring (HK) 8) Hammer spring 9mm (IGF, don't know who made it) 9) Ejector lever (HK) 10) Recoil spring (Wolff) 9 and 10 are reversed. The lever finally fixed the problem. It is a ton different than the original SW part. It's taller, the geometry is a bit diffenrent, the face that contacts the empty case has a very sharp angle on it. It's a very smooth part and seems to be harder than the original. Now, after more than a year and around $225 in parts, and one visit to IGF for an evaluation the thing finally runs perfectly. You can see it in the IGF opinions thread. The thing that made me post originally is your concern about the slop of the bolt carrier. My original cast unit had some play but not much. The SW carrier that I use now is the one that typically came in the older, cast receiver guns. It's a very nice part, very well made and is VERY tight in the receiver. No slop. If you want to take out that slop maybe you can try one. I got mine from a sear owner that uses the gun as a host and changed to the full auto carrier. You could try a used HK94 or MP5 carrier but they are more than the SW part to the tune of $40-60. I gambled on the SW part and won. I would have liked to get an HK part but the cost was just to much, after all that I have spent on the thng already. I refused to give up on mine and it became a quest (obsession?) to make the damn thing run or I would have came to my senses long ago and sold it. Yours can be made to run, it just depends on how much $ you are willing to spend on it. Paid $1450 for the gun and dumped about another $350 into it to make it run and look better. Still much cheaper than an HK. |
| hkshooter, I agree Ive made it my obsession!, and its driving me nuts. Who do you know now that would buy this gun from me? I spoke to Andy again... and Im sending it back again. I did replace the ejector w/the newest Hk one but that didnt fix it! I also bought an Hk extractor and copper colored spring! Im convinced of two things, one that its not my problem to fix (Bobcat can at their cost), and two it was a bad or improperly constructed receiver from day one. Andy claims they did not widen my receiver and that every bolt carrier is the same spec. What he doesnt seem to understand is I know how the bolt fit prior to the first time back and now it has tons of slop. Vinnie935 says his bolt carrier has less then 1/32..or maybe 1/64 play between the carrier and the raceways! Plus my magwell was tightened which again Andy claims they did not do. How do you explain mags going in like glass...to having to fight them in? I cant continue this rant or Ill have to commit myself. I requested a new gun or my $ back! Then I told him I would just use it to buy another BW5...Now hows that for believing its just this gun thats bad! |
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sabre, It sounds like there were things done to your gun that you definately don't know about. Is the serial number the same? And i agree that it's BW's problem to fix and not yours. In my case though, the customer service of SW was so bad I figure I would have to eventually spend the $ to fix it anyway. I would just have to do it months after fighting to get it back from SW and his failed attempts first. I'll give you $500 for it and solve your problem;) |
| I give sabre a hard time about his Bobcat, but the truth is, that if not for him I wouldn't have mine. Listening to all of sabre's problems, and some of those described on this forum is starting to scare me. I'm waiting for my Bobcat to start acting up. I had one jam( fail to eject) after firing the second or third round and just wrote it of as an ammo problem. I don't have access to my home PC right now, but the only concern that I have is a small dent on the inside of the reciever. When I get home I'll post a pic. But it appears to have been made by the rim of a shell casing. I assume the one that didn't eject. I hope it's not a problem. I don't like it, but as long as the gun runs, i'll live with it. |
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Update: Today I shot 30 rounds of Winchester in the white box and 100 rounds of Remmington. I still had a FTF problem in the same mag that gave me problems yesterday while shooting the Winchester. However, once I switched to Remmington, I no longer had any FTF, but I did have two or three FTE. I do have a gold extractor spring on the way, so maybe that will fix that problem. Anyone care to guess as to why one ammo would cause FTF and another only cause FTE? |
Probably because UMC is a recommended not to use ammo! |
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Now I am confused. UMC and Remington are the same? He asked if I wanted Wolf, Remington, UMC, or Winchester white. I said Remington. I saw him pick up a green box that says Remington from the Remington pile not the UMC pile. I can tell you that the Remington produced a ton of smoke whereas the Winchester barely had any. Also, where did you see that UMC is not recommended? |
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umc is a budget line of ammo, the brass is soft and from what I've seen, it appears that the case head is more rounded on the edges, prohibiting good extractor engagement. Also, if the brass is softer, that means it will expand more in the chamber and adher more to the surfaces making it harder to extract. The fail to fire -is there a good firing pin strike? or not chambering fully(out of battery) If those are from one mag, check it and see what happens. That Winchester white box has always left more brass residue when I've shot it as well. I haven't had any problems with it though. I do know that when I used the umc in my UZI-it exibited all problems noted-including a kaboom. Hopefully this helps. And keep the good info flow! Mark |
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You may find this hard to believe but I have seen Glocks that would not run with UMC ammo. Try some Hot Shot. Pistol calibers are great but the jury is still out on the rifle calibers. My SW5SBR runs with Hot Shot, S&B, W-W white box and Federal. Havent tried anything else. |
| I have a Bobcat BW5-FSC that I took to the range yesterday. Other than the cheap piece of shit A3 collapsible stock, the fit and finish is outstanding. It shot great right out of the box in semi-auto. I installed a full-auto bolt carrier and clipped on a full-auto sear pak. It ran full-auto with out a hiccup. The only malfunction was a few FTE with H&K straight magazines. With the curved H&K magazines it ran flawless. This maybe because it has about 150 rounds through it so far. Maybe it is in need of a original H&K ejector. Very pleased with it overall. |
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This is the dent that I described in my above post. As I said, I think it was caused by the rim of the case from the only Failure to eject that I had with this gun. The part that stinks is that I can't remember if it was there when I bought it, and didn't notice it untill around my 200th round or so. Has anyone else ever seen a condition like this before? http://tinypic.com/234jlh The dent appears to have been made from the inside out. As if the case somehow got wedged between the receiver and the bolt, or the receiver and the next loading round. |
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Mark - the fail to feeds are about 3/4 of the way into the chamber when using winchester white, but only on the fourth through ninth or tenth shot, then it smooths out with no other problems. However, running on Remington cause no fail to feeds, just sporadic fail to ejects. I should be getting my new gold extractor spring on Monday so I will take her back out on Tuesday. Stay tuned... |
Vinnie - Did that lower come with your bobcat? I've never seen that kind of lower on a Bobcat straight from the factory. I like that lower. Can you send a larger pic? |
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Vinnie, I had a G3 built on a Hesse receiver once that had a bunch of those dings in the same spot. The rifle never malfunctioned and I decided that the marks were cause somehow by the rollers bouncing off of the inside of the receiver as the bolt moved past. Thinking that the metal was thin enough for the rollers to dent it gave me the creeps and I sold the gun. My JLD rec has none of this nor does my SW5SBR. Put a small inspection mirror inside the ejection port and use a small but powerful flashlight to inspect the ding from the inside. You might be able to tell from the wear pattern or finish if the ding was there originally or caused by your jam. I, myself, find it hard to believe that a case rim caused your ding but I suppose it's possible. Either way, if it doesn't get worse you probably have nothing to worry about. |
Is your SW5SBR a cast receiver? |
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I aquired the Bobcat BWFS last September and have been out to the range on three seperate shooting times and have experineced some FTE problems with old H&K strait magizines and those cheap asian mags from CDNN. The H&K strait surplus mags would fail about every eight to twenty rounds with FTE problems and the last two to three rounds in the mag would fail to feed correctly. The asian 34 rd. mags would fail to feed within the first three rounds from a loaded magizine. I would generlly load the mags to the high twenty mark and contine to have FTF problems. I contaced POF USA and picked up a eight pack of POF made H&K licenced 30 rd. magizines and went to the range after receiving these mags. I was advised these mags were the real deal and would provide quality feeding and no surprizes. I aquired 500 rounds of assortment of FMJ ammo from S&B 115gr, Wincheter 115gr, and some Fiochi HP and loaded all mags with 28 rounds and proceeded to shoot at close range of 20' to 30 ' feet. My BWFS shoots a little high and requires that expensive site tool but outside this little discrepency the POF magizines preformed at 100 percent. After a solid shooting exercise for about one hour i only recorded one FTE from over 400 rounds fired. The chamber was one dirty little whore but with a few spray drops of tri flo she was well greased and ready for more shooting. I use the standard A2 stock, degree of comfort level over the A3 retractible is superior. I aquired the POF A3 retract stock for the bobcat and i had nothing but problems. Mounting the stock was a bitch and after i got the thing on and off about ten times the A3 stock would fail to lock in the closed position. The lock mechinism would not "click" I think the mounting bracket failed creating the problem. anyway the stock sits in my junk drawer with the Asian and HK mags waiting to be thrown over board for a sonar target. Use the expensive good ammo and 30 magizines and most of these problems will disapate. The only things i need now are a good side folder from choate or B&T and that site tool and i should be in heaven. |
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I traded off that Asian mag yesterday at a show--for a HK 30 rounder! And picke dup 2 more hk30's and a 15 for an excellent price. I found a dealer who had the POF mags and decided to pick up two and a mag clamp-try that set up out next trip as well. I did see some of the hk straight mags, but decided to pass based on reports of problems-to bad, they look nice and rugged. Only saw one V93-with the fake hider though, other than that it looked nice. Mark |
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V2, I have an Hk A3 stock which works super! Plus, I got the B&T side folder from LMO and I choose to use it over all the stocks while firing. The A3 is just for eye candy. LMO had the best price and they had it in stock. My experience of FTE's was with real Hk 30 rd mags..even LE stamped ones! Im still in the process of working with Andy. My BW5 is in transit back to Bobcat . And I bought a new case of military M855 ball ammo which is supposed to be loaded slightly hotter, but not +P. I did also shoot Speer Gold Dot +P and had the FTE issue as well. Would anybody agree that I just got a gun which wasnt built correct? The 1 in 1000 which just cant be fixed! I have asked for a replacement since my new BW5 now has close to 2000 test rounds and not to mention the wear and tear which I would not have done not having this issue. Plus the fact that they tightened my magwell and dispute doing so. I have pictures of the before and after! |
Hey, despite all the issues Ive had and are having with mine; Andy offered to give me my money back, but it is SBR'ed which creates a factor. I told him if he did I would just buy another gun from another dealer with the money he returns...so Im convinced its a good gun.. Like I said above I think my current gun wasnt built correct. It even has the barrel lugs upside down in the 6 o'clock position. Anyone seen that before? Any builder would know to put the top lug in the 12 o'clock position. Im pissed and still telling you to buy one, thats gotta mean something. |
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I would expect a replacement as well. That is not unreasonable to expect considering you spent your time and money on that ammo, let alone the aggravation. I would ask for mags, parts, ammo shipped to you. It sounds as if it's beyond parts-I would without a doubt demand replacement or money returned. Mark |
When I got it back the first time I took pictures of the bolt and carrier. They were not the same parts which came with the gun. They look like used, worn parts. I went to Vinnie935's house and compared the parts to his BW5 which on a prior occasion we compared how our parts matched and were even concerned about accidentally switching them and the were different this time. I think they took parts from a gun in the shop which functioned good and just slapped them in my gun and said it works now. When I got it back the bolt carrier had close to .050" play which allow the raising ejector to hit the bottom of the bolthead before going into the ejector channel. The ejector got eaten, like beveled, on the right side? I dont understand how difficult it is! I am a Colt armor and have learned enough about the Hk design that if I was in the factory with the tools they have I could build my own, right, the first time! Its just a little attention to detail. Ive bee nworking with this gun since October! |
That's an error in the construction of the barrel, not its installation. On a real MP5 barrel, there are notches in the barrel where the front sight goes and where the barrel installs into the trunion, which should make it impossible for the lugs to be out of place unless the lugs are cut wrong to begin with. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - bw5-fs quick range report (Page 1 of 2)
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