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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ORF experiences (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/7/2004 8:47:57 AM EDT
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I am still thinking about getting a mp5k-PDW clone someday. My 2 choices are Bobcat Weapons (who may or may not have anything to do with Todd Baily....I don't really care) and Ohio Rapid Fire. I hear a lot of negative feedback about Bobcat Weapons (from people thinking it' s Todd Baily....don't know ....don't care) My guess would be that Bobcat would be OK. But, I have never heard ANYTHING bad about ORF, and it would only be logical to go with a company with a good reputation rather than one with bad/none. Can anybody tell me the pros and conns of ORF. Fit and finish are very important to me. It has to look really good as well as being reliable. Do ORF guns look as good as the real thing?? Any advice THANKS |
| I have a Bobcat BW5-FS and love it. I have seen HK MP5's at gun shows and think the Bobcat actually looks better. The welds and finish are awesome and much nicer than HK. My real HK retractable stock went on very tight...better then perfect...and you cant argue with that. I dont know about ORF only that Toad (SW) posted a picture of the receivers they bought which were from Hesse. I would not want that. And yes if you dont know Special Weapons does make the Bobcat receivers for Andy of Bobcat. I have delt with Andy over small issues and he didnt hesitate to straighten it out. Andy informed me he has certified HK Armors building his guns. Two magazines tested Bobcats, Dec issue of Small Arms Review and a few months ago Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement. Both gave good reports of there findings. Just my 2 Cents! |
Wrong. ORF doesn't use Hesse receivers, and their HK94 clone receivers are neither made by Hesse, based on Hesse receivers or made on Hesse tooling. |
| Yes I know Toad (SW) is a butt! And I know its not worth much hearing from him about ORF receivers...but where do they originate! They state on their website that they have used Special Weapons receivers in the past? I bought my Bobcat before learning of ORF. I think both are the top clones. I wouldnt pick anything else. |
ORF, for a short while, manufactured HK94 clones based on SW receivers (which weren't total crap, once they moved to stamped) with some SW parts. The problem with SW wasn't the parts or the receivers, it was the assembly, and a careful smith could generally fix any issues, which ORF did. Somewhere along the line, there was a falling out between SW and ORF, and Todd (Toad) of SW has been spreading rumors and conjecture ever since. Now ORF is making their own stamped HK94 receivers. They're in pre-production right now. Initially, they tried to make a deal with Hesse to use their tooling (modified to be in spec), but this never materialized and they decided to go it alone. The tooling they're using is (as I understand it) entirely their own made to original HK94 specs. ORF's past work (including their FNC clone) leads me to believe that this will be the finest clone receiver that you can purchase. Eventually, ORF will offer HK94 clone rifles built on their own receivers and assembled with POF contract parts. POF has also mentioned that they're interested in building HK94 receivers. Neither is available yet. It will probably be three to six months before you start seeing ORF selling their HK94 pattern guns in any quantity. ORF recently secured original HK tooling for the HK91 rifle, and will be producing HK91 receivers as well. I know very little about Bobcat Weapons, other than they are located quite close to the original SW factory, and there is some sort of familial connection between them. That does not mean that they have bad service or inept smiths assembling their rifles like SW. |
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If you are willing to take the time, there was a discussion about this in the ORF HK94 receiver group buy. It's worth a look. ORF is starting to make thier own receivers, but from what I hear, the difference in quality did come down to how the smith builds up the weapon(in the case of SW receivers). I heard about the pictures too, they were unfinished receivers that were smoewhere in the middle of production. Todd at ORF posted them on his site for people to look at http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/rf21.htm. He even complained about the top-notch welder that he had hired on for a couple weeks. Anyhow, check out the group buy thread on ORF recievers. Rayn |
To all responding, Bgunner stated he wanted to know about MP5K clones. JLD doesn't have an HK94 clone receiver to offer. And where does ORF's 94 receiver come from? They sure aren't making the receiver now? Think about it. Who is actually making HK94 clone receivers...not who uses them.
Look closely at the RF94 pictured. It is a Special Weapons cast receiver! http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/photos/94FWS.jpg |
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OK, I'm new to the whole H&K thing. I know that I want a gun just like Bobcat Weapons BW89-PDW. Is that a clone of an H&K mp5k-PDW??????? It needs to have a choate folding stock and a vertical foregrip( I think its called a "K" grip). I would also get it in SBR form. Can anyone post pics of this setup?? So, are these style of weapons made from H&K 94 receivers?? |
and HK 94 is the semi-auto version of an MP5, so yes, but the K reciever is different than the reciever than the 94 (it's shorter) ORF is going to have a K reciever later on, but they're going to finish up the 94 reciever first. You could buy a 94 reciever and pay some one like IGF to convert it to K specs, but that is expensive. And Saber23, those are OLD pictures (from when they could still get SW reciever), they've been up on their website for a while, I don't think they are currently making any 94's, that is until they finish their own reciever. And I'm pretty sure SW's recievers are stamped not cast...... |
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ipsilateral_7, Your last statement about SW receivers being stamped not cast is correct. That why I stated earlier that it is a fact that Bobcat uses SW receivers..because they do! Like Toad...or hate Toad its his stamping! As everyone states its all about the build. Bobcat builds these guns and they are in the process of moving away from SW's location (probably to get away from Toad) from what Andy says. Just as ORF used Toad's receivers in the past and everyone claims the builds were great, the guns were awesome. Finally, Bgunner if you want the shorter version of the HK94/MP5..the SP89, Bobcat is advertising them now..the BW89. As with anyone who buys a new car they like...I bought a Bobcat and will pass on that they are beautiful guns, have nice welds / finishes and do function with the correct ammo. Im having trouble with buying the most econmical target ammo (cheap stuff) and ejection, but with the quality high dollar stuff it will sing all day. Low impulse ammo doesnt have the guts to open the locking rollers...look why the MP5SD used a different locking piece (for use with subsonic ammo and reduced sound). |
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Nevermind, it says right on their websight "made with "K" receiver" So if alot of these places use some of the same parts(or used too), and some work better than others,its just who puts them together then. So if I bought the Bobcat, and something wasn't right, would ORF possibly work on it for me? |
Moslty correct in that ORF was originally using SW receivers. I actually had one of the ORF RF94's (HK 94 clone) built on a SW receiver, as the SW receivers were the only ones available at taht time. Although the fit and finish of the overall weapon was great, it suffered a FTE every 5th or 6th round in over 350 rounds. Todd Grove at ORF shipped me a new actual HK ejector to fix the problem (which he has seen in the past) and it even got sent back to him with shipped covered both ways by him. Unfortuantely the problem kept cropping back up. Eventually I met a fellow with a real HK94 and he was kind enough to swap "guts" with me. We swapped every damn operating part on the RF94 and eventually concluded that the SW receiver was the problem- the magazine well was not properly sized and shaped, so the magazine would rattle around and cause the case to get knocked loose of the extractor claw. Later, some research showed taht this problem was not unheard of in the SW receivers, and that many people glued a penny to the front of their HK mags to make it work. We tried the RF 94 "guts" in his HK 94 and they work fine.  I told Todd Grove of this problem and although he had not personally experienced it on other builds with the SW receiver he took my word for it and true his word honored the warranty- he took the rifle back and in a week I had my money back. I would not hesitate to buy another firearm from Todd Grove at ORF, as he is a man true to his word and highly respected for his gunsmithing skills. He tried everything in his power to fix my rifle and when he couldn't he refunded my money without question. I am sure now that they are manufacturing the receivers in-house the quality is 1000% better and that the rifle will function flawlessly. In short, you are good to go with ORF! |
| Ok Guys your killing me! ORF does not have a receiver to date they call their own. They used SW receivers in the past and yes they are now drumming up tooling to make there own. With that, take what you can get or wait for ORF to be putting their own receivers out (complete guns) in several months...but nothing now. Yes Bgunner Atlantic Firearms shows the BW89 on their website for pre-order. The one you are talking about being built on a K frame is with you want! So I think you have really picked a great conversation forum as to who makes and builds what. Trust me I looked into every option in buying a 94 clone and the Bobcat is the only thing to buy to date....there is nothing else. ORF will only build a 94 complete rifle if you supply the receiver. |
First, seriously, relax. Yes, BW is the only company advertising an 89 pattern receiver, but right now, they exist as much in this plain of reality as the ORF 94 pattern receivers. Either way, you have a wait. |
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No, no one has stated ORF has their own receiver out there. But with everyone shouting GET AN ORF, you'd swear ORF HK94's are in your footfalls when you are trying to go out and get the mail. I have a Bobcat and I think it's a great product, and Andy hasn't jacked me around at all. Neither has Top Notch. Not sure when the K receiver will be out, call him and ask! I emailed the guys at ORF once and got a quick, complete, and professional reply. I'm sure they will have a great product. But they don't have a product YET. Why can't we all just get along? |
Dear CaptainKevinDarling read both above paragraphs and one gets the impression ORF is making a receiver which can be purchased....MY POINT! Sorry to strike a nerve! |
Then read what this actually says! |
ORF was selling recievers as a grou buy in the Group Buy Forum, which means taht techincally, yes they are making them. I did not look into it too closely, however, and it is possible that it is a preorder or that the ones in the group buy have been produced but that it is closed and no others will be available for a while. Either way, I would wait for an ORF receivered rifle, that was what I was saying. Sorry if I got the facts slightly goofed up, but at some point in the near future you will be able to get an HK94 built on an ORF receiver. If Bobcat rifles are made on Special Weapons tooling then I would not personally buy a Bobcat as my ORF rifle was built on a SW receiver and the problem was tracked down to poor design/tolerances of the SW receiver. Your money, your gun, but I personally would be willing to wait a couple of months to have a quality weapon with a 5 year warranty if I was going to drop over a grand on it. As they say YMMV. Dawg [edited] I do not believe that ORF will be making a "K" frame, so I guess if you want a semi MP5K clone, then Bobcat is the only show in town. |
| Unfortunately I cant rest on this because...I called Todd at ORF myself and they dont even have the tooling completed to date. Go on the website, get the number, and call him directly. He will grab the phone and speak directly to you...great guy. The tooling should be done within a month. They will be working to build K receivers as soon as they get the 94's going! A friend of mine has an old SW5 cast receiver. It runs great! Not all of them did. Problem was Toad (as we will refer to him) let quality control go. You can bet the new receivers are on the money. All rumors of them being bad refer to the cast receivers. The stamped receivers are fine...unless he does the same thing with inspections. If that happens Andy will be all over him. As well, call Bobcat, Andy will answer the phone himself and talk you ear off. I have no parts in either company...just bought one for myself as I stated earlier and like it! |
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Yep yep. What Sabre said. I've dealt with ORF...a great company, and I own an SW5 stamped receiver and a very late model of one at that. I've used the real thing many times and can compare my SW5 to the real thing whenever. They are very close. I haven't seen anything from ORF yet, I think it will be awhile as they have alot of irons in the fire right now. I'll probably buy one of his too! But, I only paid a little over a grand for my SW-5FS and it is pretty sweet. Sounds like Kevindevdog got burned by Toad? A few people have I suppose. Life goes on. Stay motivated all, Semper Fi. |
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Ok, what about a clone from Vulcan? Any quality or reliabilty issues? I went to this site, and all I can say is DAMN! http://www.vulcanarmament.com./cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=181&idp=87&his=0|87&cart_id=6183776.2464 I am thinking about one for Christmas. |
Stay away from vulcan! Whatever happened to you over at the ORF group buy? I do know that as of right now the RF94 receivers are scheduled for delivery on December 30th. I'll be getting my RF94 built ASAP and I'll leave you guys a full review. Jerad |
Vulcan = Hesse, which is bad. Also, they couldn't even get the delayed roller lock to work, so it doesn't even WORK like an HK. |
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Anybody still waiting for their "orders" for receivers from ORF, don't hold your breath! I've been trying to get some kind (any kind) of an update from "Toad Junior" for over two weeks now and all I've received is a kind reply from Henry at title2 telling me that Toad Junior has received my emails and that he should be getting back to me directly (two weeks ago now). I could copy what I have sent to him but the jist of it is that I was curious how the build was progressing and that a couple of pics would be appreciated, as well as, some reassurance of the ship date. Others also entered requests directly after my post and also received NOTHING. I don't know whats going on with ORF right now other than Toad Junior has obviously done a piss poor job of scheduling and planning his projects and now is getting "jammed-up" with everything comming due at once. I've entered into the Group Buy/Build with every good intention and a very favorable impression of Todd himself from our many emails and discussions. How things have gotten to this point is simply because noone can really truely KNOW FOR SURE when and/or if what will be shipped and what quality that will include at this point. All I know is Todd has lost my confidence and if I could get my money back out of my parts kit I would sell it and be gone from ORF forever! There is no way in hell I would ever send in my parts for a build at ORF with what I know about it's plans for the build process and the way the companies being run currently. Just my 2 cents worth! Happy Holidays to All! |
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Wow, you really need to cut down on whatever you are taking. Yes I have a iron in this fire also, and would like an update, but going mental and losing it, with three weeks left on the group buy... From what I understand they have many projects besides the RF94 and even reorganized their shop to do a better job for us. Does that take time in this McWorld, Yes. Is ORF pretty on time ususally when it comes to build times, Yes. With other builders you send in your parts and 2 years go by before your is built. Two weeks of nobody holdering your hand and your ready to "take your ball home" ??? As for the recouping of the cost go to the EE or http://www.sturmgewehr.com to sell them, shouldn't have a problem selling them there, and I'm sure that Title 2 will cancel your order. |
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WaMag, Well, I have many other reasons why I have lost faith in ORF. I haven't gone into all of them here simply because it's not worth airing it all here. What makes you think there's only three weeks to go? Have you received anything stating that you will be receiving your order in three weeks? Have you seen anything thats even close to being considered "finished"? Wouldn't it have been "smarter" to plan things a little better? I know I can't just tell all my customers to "please just wait while I build a new home or building so I can do more business with others". In fact, I just (Finally) received an email from Toad Junior. After two weeks he still doesn't have any pics and will not have any. He also said they will NOT ship on time AGAIN. I can copy you on the email if you forward me your address. Take care and good luck. |
| ORF's delays just don't bother me that much, but only because I am trusting ORF's excellent reputation on this board. Now, if we were dealing with an unknown business it would be a different story. In the meantime, I've been keeping myself distracted with my SEBR project! |
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Your a wise man! Unfortunatly, I've got so much tied-up in this MP5 build that I can't afford another project right now. I originally planned on having the first gun built and for sale by now so I could afford the second Pistol partially with some of the profit of the first. Had a builder all set-up and everything until Todd decided to try to buy his own pressing equipment and do it himself. Unfortunatly, that fell through becuase of .... That right (Piss poor planning) now it's going out to another company for pressing (another delay). Oh well, thats life I guess (at least my life anyhow). Take care, |
While I'm not going to jump off the deep end like others, it would be reassuring to get an update of some sort on the project. I certainly wouldn't resort to name calling. It's a little juvenile, but then again so are some people's tag lines  Until then, I will patiently wait, ready to ship my parts kit. In the end, Todd will give us a superior product to be sure. Bomber 
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Todd just posted an update. He'll have more info tomorrow. |
Nexus, Thanks.....I saw that. I wonder if you can apply for a Title 1 if you can pre-determine the serial number. If that is the case, I wonder if Todd would pre-issue S/N's to those who want them. Bomber |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ORF experiences (Page 1 of 2)
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