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Posted: 5/26/2006 4:32:49 PM EDT
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I was shooting my FAL at the range and it all of a sudden it would not chamber a round. Between trying to get the magazines to feed and trying to get the bolt to close completely I tried to chamber many rounds (and wasted 10 mins of different configurations). Finally I asked the range officer if i was doing something wrong. He suggested to look at the spent casings and sure enough the was one ripped in half. Bore light showed the brass wedged nicely (no thanks to trying to force the breach closed on 14 other rounds). I spoke with a local gunsmith and he said since it was Remington rounds it must be a gun problem. The gas adjustment knob is all the way closed, not sure if that matters. I ordered a 308 broken shell extractor (and a 5.56 for good measure) due here in three buisness days. I must admit shooting it was pretty cool untill it stuck the upper half of the case. The bottom half of the casing had a nice crecent moon shaped indention in it after firing. |
Sure it can - excessive headspace or an extremely rough chamber can do it... I'd check your headspacing 1st... On the bright side, it sounds like your extractor is plenty healthy... "The gas adjustment knob is all the way closed, not sure if that matters." I wouldn't say that too much gas(closed) could cause that... - georgestrings |
Perhaps not quite. Commercial brass is generally geared around bolt hunting guns. It tends to be softer, thinner and is usually fired in rifles with tighter headspace. Commercial SAMMI 308 can also be loaded to higher pressures than military 308. The end result is that when fired in a gun that doesn't offer the same chamber support (looser military headspace, etc) a case rupture can happen. Before I panic about the gun, I might get some military surplus ammo and give it a try. IIRC, there have also been some "issues" with Remington ammo reported in the AR15 section, such as kabooms. |
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How old is your FAL? I ask because mine still stretches brass HARD through extraction even at 5.5 - 6.5 on the regulator. Mine seems to be due to a not so smooth chamber. You can see the marks on the side of the brass from the extraction process and it tends to deform the rim if I give to much gas. There are tooling marks visible in the chamber too. It is slowly wearing in just through use so it is getting easier on the brass as time goes by. Remmington brass is what seperated on me too. The Core-Lokt's I was using seemed to be loaded pretty stout. Only use the amount of gas you need to lock the action back after the last round plus a click or so. More than that is just tearing up the brass and enhancing recoil and wear. |
same exact brand and type, my action has yet to remain locked after firing. at least twice I fired with only 1 round in the mag. I did notice the brass hit the wall and bounced 10' more. So i need to decrease the gas and it should lock it back? thanks for the responses. |
I did purchase 280 rounds of south african from aim. I just had to go shooting and could not wait till 7pm when ups delivered. So bought what the gun range had  . After the case exractor comes in and I remove the brass from the barrel I will use the milsurp. wheres the best place for good magazines? |
You're admitting WAY TOO MUCH gas to the system. When you admit too much gas, it bends the extractor rims and/or pulls the case head off. Plus this is really hard on the action of your rifle. I would read the instruction sheet that came with your gun carefully and adjust the gas adjustment nut accordingly. If you don't have an instruction sheet, here is what I would do: (1) Open the nut so that the gas bleed hole is clearly visiable. This is allowing 100% of the gas to be exhausted to the atmosphere. (2) Put 1 round in the mag, and insert into rifle, and chamber round. (3) Shoot the chambered round. Did the bolt lock back? yes=close the gas adjust nut one more click and precede to (4). No=repeat step 2 & 3. (4) Load a mag with 3 rounds, and shoot all 3 rounds, any malfunctions? Yes=Close the gas adjustment nut 1 click more, repeat step(4), No=enjoy. |
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[ I spoke with a local gunsmith and he said since it was Remington rounds it must be a gun problem. The gas adjustment knob is all the way closed, not sure if that matters. . Seems like gunsmiths know less and less about guns all the time. Not one professional gunsmith I know has half a clue about military auto loaders. About three years ago I helped a local gunsmith (with a huge ego) put together a gas system an a Hesse FAL they took in on consignment with no gas system in it. He was dumbfounded watching me put it together. Unless it's cleaning a deer rfile, the gunsmiths around here are lost. Don't bother asking them to switch out a barrel, they will have a seizure. Bad ammo or dirty chamber. Gas has absolutely nothing to do with it. |
My thoughts exactly......i shot my FAL last thursday with the GAS adjustement all the way closed and it had no problems whatsoever feeding, exactracting etc etc. The only noticeable thing is that it was ejecting the brass too far away, but nothing other than that. IMHO your problem isn't gas related either, it was either bad ammo or something to do with the chamber (whatever that might be). HUNTER. |
Lots of gas will expose the issue though. The Remington ammo that seperated in mine brought my attention to the issue and brass from all different suppliers was showing signs of impending seperation when I examined it (i doubt it's the ammo). Turning the gas down helped, but until the chamber smoothes a bit I just don't run it full closed like that. I decided not to send it back to DSA. At the rate they are going, I'll have it worked on by someone else. I'm not keen on having the gun gone for months. |
It created an amazingly difficult to troubleshoot problem. The headspace is spot on. So it is not a closed bolt headspace issue. However when a round is fired and extracted using gas, the case is expanded beyond the dimensions of a no-go gauge that the bolt WILL NOT CLOSE on (this has been checked 3 times by different folks). Fire the same load with the gas shut off entirely and the case expands exactly to the chamber dimensions. Fun huh? My only gues is that the shoulder of the case is still bound to the walls of the rough chamber even as the bolt begins to unlock. That allows the case to expand back while still under enough pressure to do so. this causes metal to flow just behind the shoulder and that's where the seperation will begin. Mine happened about halfway down the case. Over time that has decreased in severity but it still occurs on hunting ammo .308 loads. They are typically stiff and the same occurs with my own maximum handloads. If I run them even 2 grains shy of max they will only last 3 shots. Mild loads will last 5 plus shots. Agreed. |
Grunteled: You know DSA obligated to fix the problem since it is their f'ck up. I would certainly try to approach them first and give them an oppurtunity to resolve the problem. Ask them to see if they have a local FAL smith nearby, but that is unlikely, most likely you will have to return your rifle to the factory. Do me a favor, update this thread when you get your problem resolved with your rifle. I would be very curious what was the final resolution. Good luck. TIA.
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Ok got back from the GunSmith: I got a little nervous when he told me a DSA FAL he was working on was shooting 12' (feet!) left at 25yrds . He said that guns barrel might be bent. I said for the $$$ DSA better be the one working on the gun!  When I showed up he wanted to write me a ticket and do a full analysis on headspace and whatever else. He said it would take a week (he's busy, I should have guessed!). Why would I need a headspace check? First off it was test fired before shipped to me, secondly I shot 5-6 rounds before case splittage. So I know by deduction it shoots or rather does not explode (knock on wood). I'm getting my broken case extractor Fri. so no need to let my baby get fondled by a stranger. I did ask him if he could just pull the broken case (I drove 45 mins to get there), he could not find the extractor. Wasted trip. 
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In the absence of any other information, a head separation is a symptom of excessive headspace. Furthermore, I'm sure from his "bolt gun standards", your headspace will be read as excessive. Autoloaders are different. Don't waste any more time with this guy until you've managed to remove the stuck case and fire some real military surplus ammo. Anything this smith tells you is wrong should be handled by DSA anyway. A gun shoots 12' off at 25 yds and he thinks the barrel is bent? Something that far off should be noticeably bent. |
The DSA is not mine, it was his example about how untrustworthy the FAL platform is and why I should leave mine there for thorough inspection. Hate to say it but he reminded of a shade tree auto mechanic. |
Again, the gas system is really meant to compensate for differences in atmospheric pressure and will not tear brass apart regardless of the setting. I would bet money money that the chamber is non-chromed and tight, headspaced at .308 winchester, in lieu of min NATO spec. When the commercial ammo is loaded into a tightly headspaced rifle, and the rifle is fired, the brass swells. Commercial rifle brass is not as resiliant as military brass and due to the expanding pressure, the case gets jammed in the chamber. When the extractor grabs the rim of the cartridge, it rips it right off or seperates it as the force of the jam is too great for the rearward momentum of the gas system. That is the problem. Now, if the gas is closed too tightly, the bolt will stop moving rearward when the extractor grabs the cartridge rim. The extra gas will provide the momentum to force the bolt all the way rearward, and that will rip the case apart. But the problem is not the gas system, it's the chamber. I guess in a way what you said is true that the gas system exemplifies the issue, but excess or not enough gas will never cause a case seperation. Make sense? |
Yes, that is what I was saying. I reload so I have seen this with all different cases. My SA58 is not chromed and it's headspace is .003 below a SAMMI no-go (tighter that is) and if I run a hot load and a closed down gas setting it will produce the signs of seperation in: 1.) Remmington Brass 2.) Winchester Brass 3.) Lake City Brass 4.) WRA Brass 5.) Hornady It's not the gas directly causing it but it's clear (and measurable in my rifle) that the more gas you give it beyond that which is needed to operate the bolt the more the case stretches. It's not as much of an issue if you are shooting SA 7.62 but it can be an issue in hot, hunting oriented .308 off the Walmart shelf. Also: this is something that I experianced with my rifle very similar to his.... I make no assertion that it is true of all FALs or even SA-58s. This is something I noticed as a reloader with this rifle. |
I think it's safe to say DSA needs to re-think their headspace policy. The line of thinking is that the tighter chamber (.308) is more accurate but it seriously takes away reliablity. Essentially, DSA is doing a dis service by marketing these weapons as combat weapons. In combat, things get really dirty really fast and FALs will go from being the most reliable, robust battle rifle in the world to completely unreliable. Once those non chromed chambers get fouled, it's jam city. However, DSA will headspace the rifle to your custom specs, if it is logical and safe. DSA FALs are without a doubt the highest quality FALs ever made, but I think they should change headspace from 1.630" (min Win .308 GO) to 1.63215" min NATO GO. All my FALs inch and metric are headspaced NATO and are very accurate and very very reliable. I have heard many stories about DSA ejection issues. It's all in the chamber. 
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Boy, I love gunsmiths. If it is shooting that bad 12' to the left at 25 yds, it is most likely the receiver, the bolt or the barrel is drilled off center. I highly doubt the barrel is bent. It would take quite a bit of torque to bend a barrel. DSA as far as I know and I have built on several DSA receivers does not have spec issues, but I did have one crack once while drawing it up in the vise. |
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Did not have enough time to adjust the gas yet but I took it the range today (along with a broken shell extractor). It shot great, no problems at all, it shot 20 rounds between two mag reloads. My only complaint is my bolt does not stay back on last shot and I dry fired 2x. Other than that great gun. |
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