No problem and I think that the OP did a better job explaining himself going forward so a lot of misunderstandings in this thread etc.  

I guess the bottom line is that the biggest "problem" (intentional quotes) with KAC from a consumer standpoint is the people that buy things they dont need only to try to flip and screw people on the secondary market.

I have been able to buy most items including full rifles and harder to find parts at the normal pricing and am I happy with the value at those price points.

Been called a trouble maker a time or two. But it wasn’t my intention to speak bad upon them, I just seriously wasn’t familiar with the history of the company and was honestly expecting a different story…like they were out of business and John Wayne was the former owner. Just can’t wrap my head around paying $1k-$2k for a stripped lower receiver.

They delayed in shipping it, but promised on Monday that it would go out either today or tomorrow. The suppressor will ship separately once the F3 is approved to go to my SOT. I'm super excited to get it in. I literally bought a DSLR camera last week, just to take quality pictures of it when it comes in. I'll post a new thread on it with dozens of pictures. And if there are any pics of parts of partnumbers of/on it, just let me know and I'll take & share them.

Maybe true before Geissele REBCG and LMT ebcgs. Geissele guns have proprietary gas length as well and many feel have less blow back. LMT and Geissele manufacture far more in house then KAC to that point as well.

I’ve been underwhelmed by knights guns. Even when I bought at retail I was unimpressed. I’ve had Mod1 LPR, Mod1 CQB, MOD2 16”, and used/tested M110, as well shoot a buddies sr-25 regularly, I’m out of them completely with no desire to dabble again. Helped a new shooter zero/group a brand new SR-25, was about 2-3 moa…then the bolt catch broke next day at range. It also had ridiculous recoil compared to every other large frame I’ve shot/used. Trigger was abysmal too. I just don’t get why people lust after it.

I can't wait to see all of the photos! Congratulations on such an incredible package/rifle. I will be anxiously waiting to see everything!

@Jack_L

Tell us. Is the snail telling the truth or bullshitting a little?

And just for context, Reed's friend's name is James DeGroat. Owner of DeGroat Tactical Armaments. If Jack_L is close enough to Reed to ask him, ask him if he custom ordered this M110 for James as partial payment. Better yet, if I provide Jack the SN, perhaps he could enlighten us what their system/database says.

Here are all the SN's, unhidden. If Jack has access to the database, perhaps he can confirm for us on who placed the order and if James in New Mexico was the recipient.

Ha, so much focus on the blow back the G crowd is…. I sorta lost faith in G when they had a bunch of barrels a year or so ago that couldn’t chamber a fucking 556 round.  Between that and the middle aged fitness summer army camps I just got tired of all the WeApOnMaKeR catchy matchy matchy color branding holiday sales and coupon this and that.

Sucks to hear about your buddies SR25, perhaps all that blow back was making him flinch?

I don't know exactly how many individual components LMT or Geissele manufacture in-house, but I do know how many we do, and it's the majority of the rifle.
We do try to find places to make simple parts, but it is extremely difficult to find shops that are even willing to try, and a smaller number that can consistently meet tolerance requirements.
On an SR-15, we manufacture the vast majority of parts, from the receiver extension to the barrel. We do outsource the bolt carrier itself from a widely known and used manufacturer. We do outsource simple small parts like springs, detents, fasteners, pins, and the like.
On an SR-25, there are even fewer outsourced parts.
If one of those companies are manufacturing more parts in-house, its at most a few percent of what we do. There just isn't much more that makes sense.
We also produce suppressors, night vision devices, and belt-fed machine guns here in the factory, and virtually no machined parts (or additive in the case of our new suppressor line) on those product lines come from outside sources.



If that is true, it absolutely should have been sent back in for us to look at. We expect an SR-25 to be no more than a 1.1 MOA average with quality ammunition. Recoil is definitely not "light", but when all else is equal, an SR-25 will have a very similar recoil to most other large-frame rifles. Our triggers are 5lbs +/- 0.5 lbs. Something definitely sounds off with that rifle, and we would have fixed it.

There's nothing in the system for it, but if it's one of Mr. Knight's personal rifles that he's trading for a personal project I wouldn't be surprised. I don't see an order for DeGroat for that kit, but again, if it's a personal deal it won't come through me.
The SN is an accurate range and the kit layout lines up with the M110 SASS deployment kit.
I don't see anything that leads me to suspect shenanigans.
No, I am not going to bother Mr. Knight about proving someone right on the internet, but if I will if I have an opportunity.

Sounds good Jack. Thanks for looking into it Sir. I'll see if I can get James to bug Reed into autographing some sort of letter of authenticity. It's a long shot, but it can't hurt to ask.

I get it.  But you do understand that KAC itself does NOT sell stripped lowers for $1-2K right?  How about paying the same $1-2K for an original HK MP5A3 stock (as opposed the the F variant) or for a HK MP5 factory 4 position lower with correct trigger group.  I am sure I can come up with more examples.  This kind of shit is happening all over the place and greed and GB seem to be driving it.  Just saying.

Some people say they have had bad experiences with KAC and that happens.  I have not.  I will say that I cannot fathom why anyone would pay $5K for a gucci 1911 but there are people who do this every day.

The very very few minor issues I've had, CS has taken care of me ASAP.

I got to meet (briefly) Jack, Ash and Patrick at shot two years ago.  Class acts all the way around, and every time I have spoken to Jack here, or Patrick via email/phone, they always go above and beyond to help out.  

For a company that "cares only about Military contracts", they have gone above and beyond for me for what ultimately amounts to very small potatoes.

Oh, and they have Tom.  I guess he's alright .  On a serious note, I owe Tom at this point...probably a few bottles of very good bourbon.

If you like KAC and have the means to get it, get it.  If you don't, don't.  But to have a legit issue with the company because they're relatively small and people go full retard on the secondary market really doesn't make any sense.

Yes I get it. I totally understand people have different wants and needs and also we live in different tax brackets. Simply put, I was completely unaware of KAC and was curious as to why I’m seeing lowers being sold for thousands of dollars SECOND HAND.

Strange thread.

I don’t think it’s greed when talking about rare items. Irreplaceable items get irreplaceable item pricing by most collectors. And to buyers, the money is inconsequential in the setting of obtaining the almost impossible to obtain.

HK parts that are out of production or no longer being released by HK (e.g. anything MG related, like trigger groups) are going to command a premium. Try finding German HK 23E parts right now. When you find them, the prices are bananas.

Rarity drives the price, not greed.

I have stuff like their rails, buis, etc. all seems well made. I put them on regular ARs though, ain’t spending the money of the gucci guns, although I bet they’re nice.

I get your points but disagree on the last statement. While sometimes it’s true, rare items are valuable, greed can and does 100% drive prices up.

I view it differently. If I have a rare item and I don’t need to sell it, don’t really want to sell it, but have a number in mind that is high enough that I’d take the money and run, that’s not greed. That’s setting the value. It’s not an essential item. It’s not a need. It’s a collectible want. If there is a buyer willing to pay my asking price, is happy with the transaction, then both parties are satisfied.

There are guys who had the foresight to buy all sorts of collectible items. Guys with multiples of interesting transferable MGs, HK items, SIG items, KAC items. Should they simply sell these items for less than they could or should they get as much as the market will bear? I just helped a friend acquire a gorgeous original WW2 German mg42 from an advanced collector. It’s museum worthy it’s so gorgeous. The owner bought it from Sam Cummings in the 1950s and likely paid around $100 for it. Should he have sold it for less than what the market would bear, or should he get the price he wants if someone is willing to pay it? In this case, full freight was paid and both parties are happy.

I’ve been collecting HK 21e and 23e parts for the last 2 years, have stumbled upon some great deals and have also paid some painful prices for new in wrap items. I should have been buying this stuff 10 years ago when it was less costly and more available, but I didn’t and therefore I expect that it will cost more. I don’t begrudge any sellers with whom I’ve dealt for asking top of market for rare items. I’ve also passed on some things that I felt were out of my budget. Some of the thrill is in the hunt.

Bringing it back to KAC, if SR25 lowers, uppers and complete rifles are not available directly from dealers and availability is sparse, why wouldn’t those with the rare items sell them for what the market will bear? At present, the items cannot be easily replaced, there is no concrete lead time on when KAC will re-stock dealers and distributors. That makes for a seller’s market.

It’s not greed, it’s the way rare collectibles go.

Again, I agree that the rarity of an item can and rightfully so does bring more VALUE to a particular item. I’ve been a collector of sports autographs and have some pretty valuable items myself there, the rare ones bring the dollar value and with a couple I can almost name my price, no harm no foul because if someone wants to pay it, more power to them. My point is basically dividing the two into seperate categories. Greed and rarity. I was also not necessarily aiming at guns in particular or any brand in particular. I’ve seen the auto and housing industry turn a market into greed.

Literally the most tired argument on the internet is the "muh pittsburg tools are just as good as snap-on for 1/10th the cost, muh timex tells the same time as a rolex for 1/200th the price muh frankenbuild shoots the same as a KAC"  It's just hell to have these choices available, go make yours and be happy.

Little different. I work on cars and it’s easily proven Pittsburgh strips bolts and snaps in half and my grandfathers Rolex is still ticking 60 years later. There’s quality and then there’s quality plus the urge to fit in with the big dogs in the gun world. Might I add, Some people hate discussions and educating others on brands…hand raised… yet it’s so easy to stay out of those threads.

Right but with KAC, there are a a lot of guys out there who buy all then can at regular pricing from dealers when KAC releases something and then turn around and try to sell it a little while later at a crazy marked up price.  This is documented and is greed driven.  And this causes other people to buy things they *might* need when there is a product drop because they know if they dont they will either not get it or have to go to one of the scalpers to it.  As an aside, I know about HK21 stuff - its one of those things I will most likely never get because the prices keep going up to the point of absurdity - I was too focus on the MP5 and MSG90 platforms when 21 parts were actually available.

I'll be the red-headed step-child, but I don't see my KACs doing anything more than any other decent AR I own.

I have an SR15 I bought from a member here who kindly sold me his for basically MSRP, and an SR25 I bought from smallarmsales for MSRP.

I don't regret either purchase, but I have plenty of other guns that shoot as well.  

I threw together an 11.3" Geissele upper/parts gun with a Huxwrx suppressor, and it runs like a top.  I can't really ask for more.  KAC would probably do as well, but I'd have to wait months to get parts in.

Well look what just arrived 5min ago. I'll take some pics tomorrow and start a new thread on it. My apologies to the OP for muddying up this thread with unrelated pictures.

Dude delivers.

Sorry you got flamed on Reddit, thst sub is kinda shit

Thanks man! I don't know why they were so sensitive. I'm not sure how they handle everyday life, if they're offended by a prequal post. I was just excited to bring it home. Thought I'd take proper pics before making a pic heavy post with a thorough discussion around it. Not so much about MY rifle, but rather all the tidbits and details on what comes with the KACs latest deployment kit, and for people curious on part numbers, accessories etc to make a perfect clone. No big deal for me though, I'll just have the discussions with you guys when I finish taking pics.

Cant wait. If you could touch on the story again how it came abouts. It was your MK19 that this was partial payment for? Plan to shoot it much or just for the collection?

Not to derail but you have a snail on your coffee table. Ironic.

Looking forward to pics.

LMAO!  So why in this thread?  Plenty of other places to post this...  Sorry to call you out but if the shoe fits..

I'll be sure to. It was Jame's MK19. He was asking 250-300K (I'll check). It was the only fully automatic transferable 40mm in existence. It came with 400 or so chalk practice grenades. I thought it was pretty neat but then when the ATF changed their views on 40mm live rounds 10yrs ago and banned even the practice chalk ones, it became much less appealing to me. But Reed is just using it mainly as a show piece. I still don't understand why he does not get post/dealer samples but it is possible that you're not allowed to have post samples for the sole purpose of displaying them as a museum piece. I'm not an SOT so I never looked too into it, but I know many require Law Letters, for demoing to LE/Military purposes only. He's got a butt ton of money, that's why he was so hesitant on the M110 stipulation. Even though this M110 deployment kit probably cost him 5K, I think he would of much rather preferred to fork over 30-40K cash.

I have not decided whether I'll shoot it or keep it as a display piece only. I'll probably try it out, because I've never shot anything like it. Like Reed, I too have my own transferable machinegun collection but on a much, much smaller scale. The vision I have for the M110 is to do a Table/area in the mancave/gunroom where the whole theme is the "War on Terror" era loadouts. Basically I want on display all of the most common or Iconic guns from that era (2001-2014). I have a handful of rare BNIB M16s of various types that I bought from the CEO of Colts personal collection.

I just gathered two of them moments ago that I felt would fit this era/theme. One is a real MK18 mod0 as ordered by the Seabeas, one is a M16A4 model R0901 type classified as a M16A2E4. One is a decommissioned M45A1 1911 and finally the M110 I got today. I also have a transferable factory M4A1 as well, but not pictured. The rule for the collection is they have to be factory made, not clones or conversions. I would have to consult with you guys on what would be some other good candidates for this theme. Benelli M4? Beretta 92? Were any SMGs even commonly used? etc. What were the prevalent guns that were most synonymous with 2001-2014 Iraq/Afghanistan etc.

But back to the shooting question, I probably will. I shot the NIB Mk18mod0 even though it is worth triple the M110. You live once, enjoy it. However, the M16A4 and the M4A1 remain unfired, because its a relatively similar experience as shooting the MK18 especially when swapping the equivalent upper. Now going back to the M110, as mentioned, I've never shot anything like it, so I might as well experience it for myself. Quite honestly, I think shooting the M110 at distance would be even more fun than shooting a machine gun at 15-30yards.  



Thanks. Yeah you bet I have snail things! Snail night lights, snail napkin holders, snail bar soap, snail paper weights :)

Here is what I'm starting with (minus the M4A1). Also, this is just a random table in a room not the mancave with a designated area for the War on Terror. Still have to design and decorate it with misc military items/artifacts from the era.

Wow, that’s purty…

Attached File

I would not personally shoot that m110. Buy another SR25 to shoot.

Serious question.

Would shooting it really impact its value?

That shit's entirely too clean. Go paint everything, mag-dump them and get back to us.

Absolutely it would. NIB carries a large premium. It also kind of sucks to have NIB collectible firearms. I have a few that will not be shot.

IDK about the AR’s but the Colt rail gun it would. They didn’t blast them properly or bake the Cerakote so it falls off just from handling.

I don’t think anyone has an issue with you getting an M110. I think the problem lies with the “this was meant for an Ukraine contract but they diverted to me” that’s a little off. The deployment kits have been available for a while now that’s not crazy at all. It’s just the back story.

That’s makes sense to me for the Colt!

But unless there are so many m110 kits around that you can find a new one…I figured that fell into “if you want it, this is it” type category thus it would maintain value even with a few hundred rounds through it.

Irrelevant to me I suppose; I’d never spend that kind of money on a firearm.

I agree.

I purchased all of my Knight's rifles, uppers, and suppressors at MSRP when they were released and available.  Criticizing Knight's for prices charged by people not in their supply chain seems unfair.

There are plenty of posts regarding Knight's and HK that get into why MSRP is the way it is, e.g. contractually preventing them from offering items at lower than contracted mil/LE cost.

I love KAC but I wouldn't pay collector prices unless my intention was to collect for investment value.  If you're looking for a gun that's going to shoot and be reliable, you will certainly be able to find one at a much lower cost.  

If you are looking at lowers and other parts that are period specific such as GWOT era or Vero Beach era, those prices are going to command a premium.

Edit:  I will also add that if you or someone you know had a problem with their KAC guns and they did not take advantage of the great CS afforded by purchasing a Knight's gun, then that is really on you or your friend.  I met Jack and some of the other KAC folks when he did his first SR25 course and the pride and enthusiasm that the company has for their products is obvious and tangible.   They care about the civilian market even when the demand of their mil contracts take priority.  You can't really expect them shut down production lines and re-tool just to make a run of niche civilian products when they are doing their best to fill contract orders.  While his has led to the discontinuation of fan favorites like the Mk23 SOCOM can, anyone with common sense and minimum business acumen can understand.

Maybe you should read more into a thread before making assumptions. I did not start a thread criticizing KAC. I actually made it clear throughout the thread it’s more about the second hand market. Myself, being someone unfamiliar with the brand, was asking why the demand and sky high prices for their stuff.

I like KAC kit because it is innovative, well tested before release, and materially and quantifiably solid/tip of the spear stuff.

Yeah I was disappointed in their QC with that one as well, but clearly they rebounded from it and are building some phenomenal rifles. Very interested in their large frame offerings. I avoid much of brand loyalty/marketing/hype etc. So none of the other stuff bothers me.


No argument it kicked like a mule, but between that and the 5lb trigger I’m sure it didn’t help.

OP, I am not saying you are criticizing Knight's...but your comment here seems to imply that.  You comment on retailers and manufacturers...then go into mind blowing prices.

I understand that it may not be your intention, but these kinds of threads are never titled "Why is the second hand market for Brand XYZ out of control?".  It's always "Why is Brand XYZ so expensive?".  

So it’s an admittedly wrong assumption before reading. Typical way things go these days. People read the headlines and grab an opinion on a topic based off feelings

My original post was not even directed at you but a statement of agreement of DustyHaters post and I expanded on why I agreed with him.  I did not say you were criticizing Knight's, I was making a general point because of the way these threads historically go.

I've read plenty of threads that include all of your buzzwords...."ridiculously inflated"..."I'm a Franken builder"...."My PSA is just as good".  Those threads are generally pointless.  At least this thread has cool pictures.

when i bought mine, was only $200 more than a DD at the time...
while they may be overpriced now...no matter what anyone says, still smoother and nicer shooting than any other rifle i own or shoot...yes my DD and FN shoot slightly tighter groups. but as far as smoothness, recoil impulse, the way the lower operates smoothness wise, only my centurion lower comes close.

If someone is being honest, you can tell the difference....is it worth the current price difference? probably not...when KACs were 200-300 more than other brands totally....

QD cup lower