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Posted: 12/13/2002 12:54:14 PM EDT
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New to M1a's folks. What is the hinged buttplate used for? Not the storage area cover, the one the lifts to 90+degrees. Thanks, w-w |
| As mentioned above, it's to assist in controlling the weapon when firing full auto. Basically, it is the same as the BAR which also had a similar type of hinged buttplate. With the bipod on a supporting surface, the plate is swung upward and placed on top of the firing shoulder. The firing hand grasps the stock/pistol grip/trigger and the non-firing hand comes across in front of the face and is placed on the top of the stock (rearward) exerting downward force. The cheek is laid against the back of the non-firing hand to add weight and to see through the sights. Without using the bipod (M-14 or BAR), the hinged buttplate is not very effective. |
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Yes, it is for better control in full-auto. Originally there was the M14 and the M15. The M15 was to be the support weapon (basically a heavy barrel M14), though all M14s are capable of select fire. This set-up was to replace the M1 rifle, M2 Carbine, M3 SMG, and M1918A2 BAR. The M15 was dropped before production started and M14s were simply fitted with the M2 bipod for support work. The hinged buttplate was retained on all of them, so any of them could simply do the support work with just a bipod switch. At least that was the theory. Pretty early on (like during trials), the Army figured out that GIs would keep the selector on Full auto on all of them, which ate up tons of ammo. They came out with the selector lock, and most of the rifles in the hands of GIs were fitted with the lock and became semis in prcatical terms (though still capable of select fire with the selector in place of the lock). Pretty soon the Army also figured out that they screwed up in not producing the heavier M15 for support because the M14 just wasn't hacking it. It fires pretty fast, heats up quick, and is tough to control even from a bipod. So they came out with the M14A1, which had a straight-line stock/pistol grip, and a forward handle arrangement that used the sling in an interesting way to hold the muzzle down. It also had a muzzle brake. Oddly enough most M14s (which were locked on semi) retained the hinged buttplate for full auto, and the M14A1 (which was designed for full-auto) eliminated it and had a rubber buttpad. Well, that's the way the Army does things sometimes. Ross |
I have known a few Marines who saw combat in Vietnam with the M-14. They all stated that all M-14's issued to Marine infantry in Vietnam were full auto capable. They had fully functional selectors not locks. |
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Apparently we have knowledgeable M14 afficionados out here, so I have a couple of questions. My situation is that I just got a handful of surplus M14s for my agency through Uncle Sam. They shoot great and were arsenal rebult before we got them; essentially they are new weapons. We paid $19 each for them. Who (besides Springfield) has Postban hicaps for M14s? SA wants $49, which is too close to preban prices. Any reasonably priced hicaps, besides the USA junk out there? The selector vs selector lock thing has me a tad confused. These are M14s, are technically MGs though they did not come with selctors (I know what those look like from the manual) and we had to register them on Form 10s once they arrived (US military weapons are not in the National Firearms Registry). What do we have to do make one fire on FA? I can't see any circumstances where we would use one in full auto, but it would be "fun" to have at least one that is select-fire, if for no other reason than to haze new guys and occasionally waste ammo; the same reason we still have an old MAC-10 in the Armory, which we would never deploy operationally. |
Copys of TM 9-1005-223-20 and TM 9-1005-223-35 (or their updated versions) would be useful to have. Will show you how to maintain (-20) them. You need "FSN 1005-587-8408 Selector-Automatic and Semiautomatic Firing". The lock is held in by a small dia pin. Drift out the pin---remove lock---and install selector. Should be able to get selector and pin at gunshow or SGN's. |
Thanks-that was what I was looking for. |
| TM 9-1005-223-20, "Organizational Maintenance Manual Including Repair Parts and Special Tools Lists for Rifle, 7.62-mm, M-14, W/E (1005-589-1271); Rifle, 7.62-mm, M14A1, W/E (1005-072-5011); Bipod, Rifle, M2 (1005-711-6202). HQ, Dept of the Army dtd August 1972. TM 9-1005-223-34, Direct Support and General Support Maintenance Manual (the balance of the title is exactly the same as the "20" manual INCLUDING the date. As well as the selector (FSN 1005-587-8408), you also need the Spring, Selector (FSN 1005-587-8415) that goes under it. The pin is a spring pin (roll pin) (FSN 5315-051-6891) Pin, Spring:S, Phos-Ctd, 5/64 Nom Dia, 3/8 Lg. Just reuse the one you drive out of the "Selector Shaft Lock". If you lose or beat it up, just buy another from a Hardware Store (unless you only have "Home Depot" types around for the mechanically challenged Yuppies). |
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I've never really noticed it to help in prone. Are you using a sling? Are you looped up real snug (but not enough to cause gangrene)? Offhand I could see - since it takes some of the weight off your support hand, and supports it on a much shorter lever arm. In NRA and CMP highpower though - you may not use the hinged buttplate - it has to be closed. |
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Quoted: Who (besides Springfield) has Postban hicaps for M14s? SA wants $49, which is too close to preban prices. Any reasonably priced hicaps, besides the USA junk out there? There are LEO M14 mags out there. They usually go for $20. Just check the magazine for sale forums. I have seen them here. Also check: Battlerifles.com Assaultweb.net |
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Natez, Get a couple more of the $19.00 M14's ... Strip them down to the reciever (keep the receiver for the department as spare part) sell off all the other parts to make money ... buy the LEO mags you need .... probably get 300-400 per Kit... so 15-20 mags can be had for $19.00 invested... and then there will be some happy gents with parts kits... Ted... |
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If you got the M14's from the US Govt for $19, can't they sell you some mags for a discout as well? I mean I would start there first before hunting around and buying them from a vendor. Usually rifles, like the M14 are transferred to PDs under an assistance program that allows Fed funds/surplus equipment to go to PDs. I would think they'd have somehting in the program to get mags, bayonets, slings, bipods, etc to you as well. Check with Uncle...if he was good for a $19 M14, he may be good for a $5 mag. Ross |
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Phone gunner, He answered you on this in his last thread on these guns. Its a no go on that plan. They have to keep the guns, transfer to another agency or send them back. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=152126&page=1 |
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Lumpy, A bit more on the M15, M14E2 and M14A1. The M15 was supposed to be the squad automatic weapon and replace the BAR. The main difference between the M15 and the M14 was that the M15 had a heavy barrel on it. Having all other parts interchangeable was supposed to cut down on the logistical complexities of fielding numerous types of rifles and smgs. In the trials, the Army, in its wisdom, decided that the heavy barreled version of the M14 didn't make much sense. After fielding the M14, it was soon found that the M14 did not handle very weel in FA as a squad automatic weapon. Armorer units came up with some mods to make it more manageable - detachable muzzle brake, front folding grip, inline stock with pistol grip. This was the M14E2. After these modifications became adopted as standard, the designation changed to M14A1. If I remember correctly, E designates a modification made in the second or third support echelons, wheras A designates and officially adopted variation of the original issued item - eg Springfield '03A1 through the Springfield '03A2, Colt 1911 and 1911A1 etc. |
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"XM" designates an experimental model. After it is adopted, the "X" is dropped and the M remains. Upon adoption, the XM9 became the M9 pistol. As a side note, this is the current system, the M14 was adopted under the older system that used a "T" number for "Technical" that was simply a technical working model until adoption (T44E4), then the model number was assigned to it. It was soon figured out that if the designation of the experimental number was the same as the model number upon adoption, fewer publications would have to be changed and less confusion would exist, both saving money. "M" designates an adopted model. These are issued in accordance with a series type. So you have an M1 tank, M1 carbine, M1 rifle, M1 helmet (steel pot), etc. Once the numbers get too long, they just start over again, so you'll get repeat numbers, but not usually when something is still in service. For example the M3 Bradley is a repeat number of the M3 Stuart (both are under the same numbering series) but there has been enough time between the two that there isn't any confusion. Wheeled and tracked vehicles run separate. The M4 carbine is simply the fourth carbine in the number series of carbines (M1, M2 and M3 having been adopted in WWII/Korea) "E" designates an experimental variation of a model. (e.g. XM16E1 is the first experimental variation of an experimental model). "A" designates an adopted variation of a model. This is in order of adopted numbers, not linked to the experimental variation numbering. So the XM16E1 became the M16A1 upon adopting both the model and the variation at the same time by the Army. The M16A1E1 was the experimental variation of the M16A1. When it was adopted, it became the M16A2. "Mk" numbers are assigned by the Dept of the Navy. The Mk-19 automatic grenade launcher was originally developed for patrol boats in Vietnam, and adapted for ground use. As the proponent agency, the Navy designation is used. The Navy uses "Mod 0", "Mod 1", etc in a similar manner to the Army's "A". Whomever has the responsibility for the weapon system is the one who assigns the number to it. That's why you'll see both number systems in all the services, because it doesn't make any sense to call something a different name just for your own use. That move has actually saved millions of dollars. Ross |
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