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Posted: 1/5/2016 1:27:26 PM EDT
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In order to be a Korean War bring back rifle would the serial number on the receiver, bolt and barrel all be the same? the Rifle I am looking at is made of all H&R parts, but the serial numbers do not match on any of the three. What does that mean?
I am trying to figure out the value. |
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Are you sure you're not looking at drawing numbers? (Drawing numbers are the "serial numbers" on the blueprint for that part.)
For example, the drawing number on an HRA bolt should be 6528287, barrel could be 6535448. Bolts don't usually have any kind of serial numbers--they might have a heat lot number. Barrels usually have a date (MM-YY). |
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It's also very unlikely that any H&R M1 Garand would be a Korean war bring back as the war ended before H&R got into the swing of full production.
For the H&R to be correct it would be all H&R parts and the barrel date should be within a few months of the serial number. The barrel could be either H&R or LMR. |
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The only "serial number" will be on the receiver itself. All of the other numbers on the various parts are government blueprint part numbers. The barrel will be dated as to month and year of it's manufacture, not necessarily even close to when the rifle was made, as well as having a blueprint part number too.
Most rifles have been rebuilt, often several times. I'd rather get a freshly rebuilt rifle than a well worn original, but that's just me. I want a shooter, not a collector's item. |
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yep, while the h&r went to Korea it wasn't there for the short Korean war. It got there after as military aid to the Koreans. We fought the Koream war with the WW2 gear for the most part.
also those numbers are part numbers; and heat lot numbers. The parts were not sn'd to the firearm. |
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Receiver below the standard U.S. Rifle designation reads ( H&R Arms Co. 4,667,5XX
Bolt reads 6528287 H.R.A. and under that is U.W. 883 Barrel reads HRA D6536448 then it is dated 4-53 and then there is R522 out from the date. On the wrist of the stock there is an upper case P in a circle. Gun shows some honest wear. |
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You will also find h&R specific part numbers on the trigger housing hammer safety operating rod gas cylinder lock screw elevation and windage knobs and perhaps some others I have forgotten. There are also ways to identify the smaller parts based on minute manufacturing details. It is rather rare for a rifle to be complete all correct as it left the factory. One thing I have seen pretty common is a rifle with correct era parts for the bolt barrel and operating rod but the rest of the small parts replaced.
It is comparatively much more common for a post world war 2 rifle to be found all correct compared to a ww2 era as has been mentioned many garands were rebuilt multiple times from 1945 through the late 60's While it is common belief to think of the m1 as superceeded by the m14 by the late fifties in actuality many units were still running garands in the mid 60's and in the guard and reserve into the 70's, while the navy and coast guard were using them to some extent until the 80's |
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Quoted:
"Bring back?" You mean stolen? -- Chuck I have had several Korean war vets tell me they were actually able to buy guns from the DOD while in the service. The man this gun belonged to died several years ago. He was a Korean war vet. I assume he bought it. ETA, I never met him. |
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As someone else said, most HRA rifles never made it to Korea, even though they were made during the war--it didn't last long enough to get them into combat after ramping up production.
A lot of times, a vet will show someone a gun and say "This is the gun I carried during the war." What they mean is "This is the same model of rifle I was issued while I was in combat," not "This was THE specific firearm I carried in combat." Odds are this is not really a "bring back" rifle. |
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As someone else said, most HRA rifles never made it to Korea, even though they were made during the war--it didn't last long enough to get them into combat after ramping up production. A lot of times, a vet will show someone a gun and say "This is the gun I carried during the war." What they mean is "This is the same model of rifle I was issued while I was in combat," not "This was THE specific firearm I carried in combat." Odds are this is not really a "bring back" rifle. Well the folks who have it never claimed it was. That was my assumption based on him being a vet, and able to potentially buy his gun from the DOD. I have been told by several vets that they could have bought their guns if they wanted to, and wished that they had. My understanding is they could even buy demilled machine guns and bazookas and such towards the end of the war. If I am not mistaken this receiver was one of the first 7500 made in 1953 by H&R. the barrel is marked as being made in April of 53. the war ended on paper in july of 53. I just put two and two together there. |
No worries, wasn't trying to poke you in the eye, it is just a common misconception (one I had with some relatives until I grew up and started asking questions), so just wanted to clarify how that idea of a "bring back" can come about. 
I have seen cases where soldiers from WWII were allowed to purchase their personal weapons on the way out the door (some 1911s, mainly), but was not aware that policy/procedure had extended into Korea. May have to do some Googling to see if that was the case..... |
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Way too hard to put a value on it based on description. Some pictures would help.
You could go over to the CMP forums and look at the various pictures to get an idea of condtion. Over there they talk in CMP grades; collector, correct, service, field and rack. That's from highest to lowest condition generally. In reality CMP grades on barrel condition mostly. They can gage the wear on the throat and muzzle. That said rack and fields often look quite knocked around. |
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At this point I have recommended that they take it to a gun smith who is familiar with m1 garands. Gunsmith may be of no help as far as being a original rifle. It needs to be taken to a knowledgable collector Its not that hard if you can list the drawing numbers of all marked parts. If the rifles passes that then we can work on identifying the unmarked parts by manufacture. If you dont want to do it publically PM me the list |
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Gunsmith may be of no help as far as being a original rifle. It needs to be taken to a knowledgable collector Its not that hard if you can list the drawing numbers of all marked parts. If the rifles passes that then we can work on identifying the unmarked parts by manufacture. If you dont want to do it publically PM me the list Quoted:
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At this point I have recommended that they take it to a gun smith who is familiar with m1 garands. Gunsmith may be of no help as far as being a original rifle. It needs to be taken to a knowledgable collector Its not that hard if you can list the drawing numbers of all marked parts. If the rifles passes that then we can work on identifying the unmarked parts by manufacture. If you dont want to do it publically PM me the list Well as of right now it is being inspected by a local smith with some experience with M-1s. Once they get it back, if I can, I will. I am very interested in the rifle. I was never big into Garands, but this one is special because I grew up with several people who fought in Korea. The M-1 is a graceful rifle in the hands. |
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Receiver below the standard U.S. Rifle designation reads ( H&R Arms Co. 4,667,5XX Bolt reads 6528287 H.R.A. and under that is U.W. 883 Barrel reads HRA D6536448 then it is dated 4-53 and then there is R522 out from the date. On the wrist of the stock there is an upper case P in a circle. Gun shows some honest wear. The Barrel, Bolt and Receiver all are correct for your gun per Duff's data sheets and his post war blue book. If the stock has the eagle with 3 stars stamp (DAS Cartouche) on the side of the stock measure it. If it's 3/8 inch then it's an HRA stock, if it's 1/2 it's a later HRA stock. If it's 1/2 inch then it's an SA stock. |
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The Barrel, Bolt and Receiver all are correct for your gun per Duff's data sheets and his post war blue book. If the stock has the eagle with 3 stars stamp (DAS Cartouche) on the side of the stock measure it. If it's 3/8 inch then it's an HRA stock, if it's 3/4 it's a later HRA stock. If it's 1/4 inch then it's an SA stock. Quoted:
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Receiver below the standard U.S. Rifle designation reads ( H&R Arms Co. 4,667,5XX Bolt reads 6528287 H.R.A. and under that is U.W. 883 Barrel reads HRA D6536448 then it is dated 4-53 and then there is R522 out from the date. On the wrist of the stock there is an upper case P in a circle. Gun shows some honest wear. The Barrel, Bolt and Receiver all are correct for your gun per Duff's data sheets and his post war blue book. If the stock has the eagle with 3 stars stamp (DAS Cartouche) on the side of the stock measure it. If it's 3/8 inch then it's an HRA stock, if it's 3/4 it's a later HRA stock. If it's 1/4 inch then it's an SA stock. Incorrect HRA can be either 3/8 or 1/2 , SA are 1/2 You identify they manufacture by the P proof and the shape of the stock. |
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Incorrect HRA can be either 3/8 or 1/2 , SA are 1/2 You identify they manufacture by the P proof and the shape of the stock. Quoted:
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Receiver below the standard U.S. Rifle designation reads ( H&R Arms Co. 4,667,5XX Bolt reads 6528287 H.R.A. and under that is U.W. 883 Barrel reads HRA D6536448 then it is dated 4-53 and then there is R522 out from the date. On the wrist of the stock there is an upper case P in a circle. Gun shows some honest wear. The Barrel, Bolt and Receiver all are correct for your gun per Duff's data sheets and his post war blue book. If the stock has the eagle with 3 stars stamp (DAS Cartouche) on the side of the stock measure it. If it's 3/8 inch then it's an HRA stock, if it's 3/4 it's a later HRA stock. If it's 1/4 inch then it's an SA stock. Incorrect HRA can be either 3/8 or 1/2 , SA are 1/2 You identify they manufacture by the P proof and the shape of the stock. I just double checked the scott duff book. Looks like my dyslexia kicked in. I updated my post. |
"Bring backs" only legally applies to captured enemy weapons and were individually documented. (I have a P'08 with the "capture papers.") US weapons don't fit that category. There are legal sources for the M1 Rifle and many folks conveniently forget they got these from CMP decades ago.  Tell a story enough times and the teller starts to believe it.
If there were any DMRO sales they would have been stateside, not in Korea. The Army is not in the habit of selling current issue weapons. Certainly not in a war zone. The glut of "bring back" M1 Carbines after WW2 were all stolen but the USG decided to not waste the effort to recover them. Same for "bring back" M1 Rifles. Happened at the end of WW1 as well when thousands of M1911 pistols went missing. During the 1960s CMP sold thousands of M1911 pistols for $25 each for a short while before sales stopped. -- Chuck |
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