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Posted: 4/10/2009 7:53:30 AM EDT
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Five inch circles at 200 yards, from a Springfield Loaded Synthetic, 100 rounds downrange since NIB, and a Springfield Custom Supermatch with Hart bbl, 200+ roundcount, according to the guy who special ordered it and had to sell it to me. Fed GMM 168 thru the Super, SA 7.62 thru the Loaded.
It wasn't me, I ran several sub 1/2 moa groups from a Rem 700 during the same session. What's my first move towards better accuracy on these rifles? What one change is likely to tighten those groups the most? |
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How well can you shoot with iron sights? If you're not focussing on the front sight and ONLY the front sight (none of this shifting back and forth between the sight and the target), 5"@200yds is as good as you'll ever get.
Also, if you pull the stock off to clean, then it's probably going to take 10-20rds for the gun to settle in before it starts shooting well. |
| I'd think the possibility of getting two guns that can't shoot well and one of them being a supermatch is probably rare. I'd take a look at the guy behind the trigger. The M14 took some getting use to for me. I could drive tacks with my AR but when I stepped up to the big boys I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn for a while. |
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H20, I need to pull the Super and see how the bedding is. Wanted to shoot it first, see if it was solid or not, it probably isn't. The Loaded is whupping it, surplus vs match ammo. I'll look into shimming it. Guy's wife moved to New Zealand for a super job, he was allowed to import one long gun per year, this one wasn't his first choice. I was hoping I got a tack driver, but that's not what I'm seeing so far.
30cal, I'm in and out with irons. I'm prescribed for -9.5 diopter contacts, but use -8.5s for shooting. Just over the flu (can't wear contacts with goo flowing) so my contacts were first day installs, as good as it gets. Focusing on the target at 200 is never an option for me. Fuzzy black dot is the best I can hope for. I was holding 2-3 inches with a Bushy service AR, stock DCM, during both these sessions. Occasional fliers, but decent groups. I'm going to take what I can get from the M1As out to 300, long enough to zero what I have, then look into accurizing. Its probably not fair to the Springfields to shoot them same session with the Remmy, but I still think I can more out of them than what I see now. Appreciate the discussion so far, keep it coming. |
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The Super Match should have everything done already as far as accurizing goes... How are your groups with this rifle and the match ammo?
On the loaded it has the NM trigger and NM barrel so next step would be to unitize the gas cylinder and bed the action. Also use better ammo in the Loaded, SA is decent plinking ammo but it will never give MOA groups at 200 yards. |
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I'd think the possibility of getting two guns that can't shoot well and one of them being a supermatch is probably rare. I'd take a look at the guy behind the trigger. The M14 took some getting use to for me. I could drive tacks with my AR but when I stepped up to the big boys I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn for a while. I can see where you're coming from, but the Remmy .308 bolt is much lighter than the M1As and it's literally drilling dimes. I do know the synthetic stock on the Loaded is uncomfortably long for me, but the wooded Super feels good. The serial # on the Super indicates mid 1980's vintage, and I do not know if the original owner had it all the way down for cleaning after every session. From the results, I suspect he did and it may be time for new bedding. Could be technique, but it isn't basic technique. I was taking my time setting up NPOA, following through, and both triggers fell pretty good to me, better than the Remmy IMO. What's different on an M1A as compared to other rifles? I have a Bushy BAR-10 that won't run worth a darn but holds 1.75" at 200, and a series of ARs in .223 that run the gamut from sloppy to tight. Is there a secret to technique that just applies to the M1A? |
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The Super Match should have everything done already as far as accurizing goes... How are your groups with this rifle and the match ammo? On the loaded it has the NM trigger and NM barrel so next step would be to unitize the gas cylinder and bed the action. Also use better ammo in the Loaded, SA is decent plinking ammo but it will never give MOA groups at 200 yards. Being a mid 1980's rifle, I suspect the Super used to be better than it is now, even though it was claimed to only have 200 rounds downrange since NIB. My original common sense (theoretical) plan was to keep the Super for matches, and set the Loaded up for fighting and funning. Hence the SA in the Loaded, and GMM for the Super. I'm getting 5 to 5.5 inch groups at 200 from both right now. I'm using a sling with the Super, and a rest with the Loaded. Wanted match conditions zeroing the Super, and just a zero for the Loaded since it would probably be fired freehand under intended conditions. Probably not going to bed the Loaded, I chose that model so it could be field stripped regularly under heavy use. Ah, almost forgot, one more thing, maybe important, maybe not. The Super is vertically stringing the groups, where the Loaded is making circles. The Super's groups measure 1-1.5 inches in windage, 5 to 5.5 inches in elevation. Does that help ID potential issues? |
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The Super Match should have everything done already as far as accurizing goes... How are your groups with this rifle and the match ammo? On the loaded it has the NM trigger and NM barrel so next step would be to unitize the gas cylinder and bed the action. Also use better ammo in the Loaded, SA is decent plinking ammo but it will never give MOA groups at 200 yards. Being a mid 1980's rifle, I suspect the Super used to be better than it is now, even though it was claimed to only have 200 rounds downrange since NIB. My original common sense (theoretical) plan was to keep the Super for matches, and set the Loaded up for fighting and funning. Hence the SA in the Loaded, and GMM for the Super. I'm getting 5 to 5.5 inch groups at 200 from both right now. I'm using a sling with the Super, and a rest with the Loaded. Wanted match conditions zeroing the Super, and just a zero for the Loaded since it would probably be fired freehand under intended conditions. Probably not going to bed the Loaded, I chose that model so it could be field stripped regularly under heavy use. Ah, almost forgot, one more thing, maybe important, maybe not. The Super is vertically stringing the groups, where the Loaded is making circles. The Super's groups measure 1-1.5 inches in windage, 5 to 5.5 inches in elevation. Does that help ID potential issues? Yes, possibly. The Loaded sounds like it's doing what it should and if you want it better, the usual match formulas would be the way to go for improvement. The Supermatch definitely sounds like it's misbehaving. 1. Sights. The aperture will eventually ratchet down under recoil if you're not checking the rear sight tension prior to firing as perscribed in the field manual, FM 23-8 (section 28 I believe). For this reason, I recommend that you always count the # clicks of elevation used. Start with it bottomed out, and when your done, count all those clicks back off. This will help you spot a sight problem if when it occurs. 2. This is more of a nebulous thing. Many people believe the match flavors shoot best when fired from position with sling tension. The rifle should bedded such that the forend of the stock pulls the barrel down (it should take a pretty tight squeeze to force a gap between the stock ferrule and the lip of the barrel band). This dampens out all the unwanted vibrations you get when you hang a bunch of loose, cycling junk off an otherwise great barreled action. Sling tension, in theory, may enhance that dampening. Still, it shouldn't be stringing badly. You may see an improvement shooting slung in, but I wouldn't expect it to be very big. My vote is rear sight tension. |
| Also, while you're looking at your sight, click it up and down a couple of times and make sure you get more-or-less equal movement in both directions when you reverse the knob. I've found several elevation pinions that have a full click of slop in them (which makes life very unpredictable when you bring the hooded aperature 1/2MoA adjustment into play). |
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Also, while you're looking at your sight, click it up and down a couple of times and make sure you get more-or-less equal movement in both directions when you reverse the knob. I've found several elevation pinions that have a full click of slop in them (which makes life very unpredictable when you bring the hooded aperature 1/2MoA adjustment into play). I was looking for a 200 yard zero when I noticed the groups were larger than anticipated. Clicking the sights between just about every string. I did not check for back tension, and will begin doing so. I'm guessing you want me to rock the adjustment knob a bit after setting it, to make sure I'm in the "middle of the detent"? I'll give it a shot, get what I can at 200, do the same at 300, and then that girl is getting field stripped so I can SEE how the bedding looks. 2.5 moa from a Loaded, using ilsurp ammo, isn't too far off the mark. Random errors that pass QA can add or detract to accuracy, and I have rifles that are enough better than factory specs to make 2.5 from a Loaded possible. But you guys have helped me see that 2.5 moa from a Super means something, somewhere, isn't "super", something has gone wrong with the rifle since it came off the line, and now I have to figure out what it is. I'll check the DoD manual for sight manipulation, get that right, look at the bedding, and then probably be back with more questions. I appreciate all your replies, thanks for the help. |
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Could be as simple as a loose gas plug...make sure they're tight.
Are the sights tight, how about the flash hider? When was the last time you cleaned the gas cylinder and piston? Are you sure you're getting all the copper out of the barrel and how do they gauge? Are you tuning the ammo for each of them...different OAL's, powders/primers? How's the trigger..stock triggers can get in the way if they are gritty/heavy don't release consistently? |
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Could be as simple as a loose gas plug...make sure they're tight. Are the sights tight, how about the flash hider? When was the last time you cleaned the gas cylinder and piston? Are you sure you're getting all the copper out of the barrel and how do they gauge? Are you tuning the ammo for each of them...different OAL's, powders/primers? How's the trigger..stock triggers can get in the way if they are gritty/heavy don't release consistently? Good stuff, I'll look into all those. Between the holidays, medical issues, a death in the family, and the meltdown, there are several new rifles in the safe here, and with winter ending, all of them need zeroes. All the work on them so far has been hit and miss, between emergencies and weather. There was reason to believe this rifle was its original owner's one in a lifetime dream rifle. The stock, the custom barrel, the nots he filled the catalogs and order forms with before he bought the rifle. He didn't take it with him to New Zealand, but he only got to take one, and I'm not sure I'd pick a super as my only rifle myself. I wanted to see how it shoots as is. I cleaned the barrel and looked at the piston, it was spotless. I didn't want to field strip it, even though I wanted to see the lugs and bedding. After I finish getting zeroes out to 300, I'll figure out a schedule where I can get deeper into the rifle, figure out where it needs improvement, and work with it till it gets where I want it to be. Thanks for additional suggestions where to look, I appreciate it. |
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What's my first move towards better accuracy on these rifles? What one change is likely to tighten those groups the most? One of the best moves towards better accuracy is installing your rifle in a SAGE EBR stock. |
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It wasn't me, I ran several sub 1/2 moa groups from a Rem 700 during the same session. I'll bet you a buck it was you. What you can do with a 700 and how you do it does not necessarily translate to the M1A. What's my first move towards better accuracy on these rifles? What one change is likely to tighten those groups the most? Dry fire practice, dry fire practice, dry fire practice |
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