Friend of mine didn't buy anything from DM was denied.

I applied for 2 form 1's on 12-14-22

The SBR was approved on 2-3-22

The suppressor is still showing submitted as of today 4:15pm central


This is making me nervous

I have a name that is globally unique - would it be helpful if I submitted a Form 1 to see if I’m denied as well?

I was already planning on picking up a couple of cans, and it’s not like I’d have trouble completing an F1. I’ve got a lathe sitting in my office right behind me.

Even if you dont build it, you could always submit regardless, I believe you can get the stamp refunded if you don't go through with the build. You're just out the cost of mailing in your fingerprint cards and time.

My buddy wants to form 1 a can, I told he should submit paperwork just to see what happens.

Eta, He also has a unique name...hey wait a minute...

Submitted 1/25/22
Denied  2/28/22

Has anyone submitted one recently and been approved?

I should get my fingerprints done & submit for a .177 airgun can made of Legos.  If they deny that, they've made Technic Lego bricks illegal.

Question, since anything that's designed to be a suppressor part is now a suppressor, how does stuff like this get sold by big names on the daily:

https://yhm.net/phantom-qd-adapter.html

This replaces one end of a suppressor. The "other end" cap if you will - and is everywhere for sale.

As a matter of fact, this is what I bought from DM that will apparently get my entire form 1 pulled even though I machined the K baffles, tube, and end cap from a SOLID BILLET OF FUCKING TITANIUM AND IT TOOK ME 60H TO DO.

I can't express how angry I am that I even have to think about this when I did everything right, did all the research on what was kosher in 20fucking15 and moved forward in the manner that was completely compliant. 7 goddamn years later.

It's like it's an ex post facto ruling...

I feel like filing just to see.

I'd put something this in the notes portion:
Upon approval of this form, said form 1 silencer and all associated parts, controlled by said form 1, are to be made, in part or whole, from non-silencer parts.

At this point tell them you want to cast it… I think they would still try to say the raw materials are intended for use in a silencer.

this is out of hand

-Mike

While it's not an official stance yet, one agent basically leaked out you are goin to have to resubmit the form 1 with a source of raw materials, schematics, and what machining/cnc process you are going to be using to complete the built.  If someone wants to be a guinea pig you can go ahead and do that now, worst case you get a charge and refund for the stamp.  Will probably be honor system since you don't have any set requirement to have raw materials in advance, and you can use more raw materials in the process until completion.

I get why they are doing it then but its still dumb and denying all the people who lawfully jumped through their hoops is a dick move which does nothing to make us safer.

It also does nothing to keep NFA weapons out of the hand of criminals since no criminal would bother with a form 1 to begin with.  


What are these gun groups I keep getting asked to donate money to doing about this?


Does any other industry/customers get treated like this by the federal agency that has oversite of them?

Cut their funding, reduce manpower have GAO audit them

Yeah, more info in the other thread...
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/ATF-Mass-rejection-of-Form-1-silencer-apps-/5-2534357/

This is personally where I see this going.   The BATFE leadership appears to have solvent traps in their crosshairs and previously would look the other way if you effectively registered a solvent trap via a Form 1.  

Solvent trap kits probably got onto BATFE leaderships desk after some report about unregistered solvent trap based suppressors showing up more and more in crime stats, or maybe some high profile incident (like the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot) got someones attention.

Ultimately, its anybodies guess as to "what" prompted  this change but it does fit the current narrative that the current democrat leadership of this Country clearly doesn't like end users making their own guns at home and they really don't like end users making their own guns from easy to assemble "kits" be it an 80% lower, an Auto-Key card,  or a solvent trap.

With Form 1 suppressors they clearly can't just 100% stop people from building suppressors via a Form 1 (Contrary to some of the online hand-wringing, I don't think Form 1 builds are DOA).  

But given the definition of a silencer and the inclusion of "parts" in that definition they are going to make it much more difficult for the average Joe to complete a suppressor in their garage using an online sourced complete solvent trap kit and a hand drill.  

At the same time they are going to put a pretty significant dagger in the heart of the supporting solvent trap industry by not allowing end users to use their critical parts (like threaded tubes and cups) in future form 1 builds, arresting vendors who cross some arbitrary line, and intimidating future customers by sending out scary letters  to former customers.  

This is very similar to the efforts to get rid of 80% receivers as we currently know it in order to make privately made firearms that rival the functionality/reliability of factory made guns more difficult to make at home.

Again personal speculation... the primary objective is probably really intended to put a significant dent in the online solvent trap vendor industry by putting most of them out of business by drying up their business to the point where its not profitable and/or too risky to continue. Its just a side benefit if it also reduces the number of homemade form 1 suppressors.

It sounds like there was a not well thought out edict to probably just deny all pending suppressor Form 1s or all pending Form 1s that met some sort of poorly defined internal ATF criteria where they "believed" the submitter was using a solvent trap kit.  Could have been a combination of customer list, previous submissions, model chosen, attached documentation, some sort of hastily decided common solvent trap length, or just left up to the individual examiners to kick back whatever they wanted with completely random results.  Clearly they drafted the lengthy denial verbiage to add to the denied forms of which nobody has ever seen before, so I don't think this was some sort of eforms computer glitch that erroneously denied a bunch of forms.

My guess is that any denied Form 1 will need to be resubmitted.   Any future Form 1s (or ones that for whatever criteria were not denied)  the NFA branch may require some type of documentation on specs, what materials you plan to use, where the materials are sourced from, and how you plan to build the suppressor.  

You may  have to provide a basic drawing of what you plan to build, state you are making the suppressor parts from raw tube/bar stock, washers, etc , and you plan to use a manual lathe or CNC in your build.   It will probably be on an honor system given there is currently "no post" build feedback requirement but your "pre-build documentation" will have to be submitted under "penalty of perjury" same as when  you sign the Form 1..... which will probably scare most people off from lying and using a solvent trap kit anyway.  

Assuming this is how it shakes out, how strict they are in terms of future Form 1 pre-build documentation is anybodies guess at this point.  Maybe it will be a check box type item like the CLEO notification where nobody actually follows up to see if you sent the CLEO copy in or it may require all sort of documentation and a high level of scrutiny like re-registering a former LE only imported SBR, like an HK416SF.

Longer term the ATF may update the eforms site to require this pre-build information to be uploaded as part of the eform 1 submission process as well as update the instructions on the paper form 1 to require a pre-build documentation checklist to be send along with the paper app.

Who knows, maybe this will cause enough of a stink from end users and congressional inquiries they drop the whole thing and blame it on an internal computer error quietly drop it like the M855 debacle.

They could also double-down on this path and start sending out denial letters for previously approved  Form 1 suppressors where they have evidence that a solvent trap kit was used in its construction. Although I suspect the evidence bar to retroactively deny approved Form 1s will probably need to be higher given all the implications that come with that path vs  just denying a pending applications where there is no already built (and now contraband) suppressor and owner to deal with.

Solvent traps violate the spirit of the law which is that you build the suppressor from scratch. I knew these solvent trap kits weren't going to last.

It just sucks that this the way they go about closing that loophole.

The law violates the spirit of the Constitution.

Wait what?

What law is that?

The spirit of the law is that silencers are registered so the government can track them.  The law has nothing to do with something being difficult to build.

"the loophole"????

The NFA is the damn "loophole" against our 2nd amendment.

If we were to accept that the current ATF operational hypothesis is valid - then it is a HUGE Admission of guilt by ATF that they have collected taxes which were not due, created fraudulent entries in the NFA database, and provided invalid tax documents which did not actually protect the taxpayer as intended, and conspired to allow illegal items to exist in interstate commerce.

And they have been doing it for decades.

Remedy - Suspend all ATF staff without pay until a proper bipartisan Congressional committee can sort this out.

Personally I think you should be able to buy your NFA stamp at your local Post Office and mail a certified copy to ATF and your done. Remember when the NFA is challenged in court they remind you it is a revenue taxation measure, the registration is just to prove the tax has been paid.

Fuck all that.

Imagine standing in line, at the post office, to file a form 1/4?
There's a probability the ATF processes them faster

What an awful take dude.

The law violates the very clear letter of the law: "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed".

I remember when we had to get paper tax forms from the post office, and the corresponding instruction booklets. If they were out, you were out of luck. There were no downloads back then.

I know your name, it's not that uncommon lol.
And Happy Birthday.

New addition to eforms:

Attached File

Read more, post less.

It's almost as bad as requiring a tax stamp on every piece of paperwork, or as bad as a tax on tea.

Who did not see that coming

Sorta.  They've set a trap for themselves:

Attached File

This was my response to the email I received yesterday, I mailed it out to ATF. I will let you know how it went.

Dear ATF Examiner,
As per the request on 3 March 2022 I will submit to the best of my ability.

1.Pictures of the parts that you will use to make the silencer.

     I can not supply pictures of parts that I have not made yet, as making the parts prior to the Form 1 approval is a felony.

2.A description of the processes you will use to assemble or fabricate the silencer.

I will use my lathe or lathes (Pictures submitted) to machine all the parts necessary (Baffles, end caps, tube) to complete the silencer (Proposed plans submitted, have not determined which one I will use, still researching)

3.The product, model, or kit name, if any, of each device and/or part that you will use to make the silencer.

I will be fabricating all parts of the model 9MM SUPPRESSOR on my lathe as soon as I have an approved Form 1.

4.The source from which the parts were obtained, i.e., the name of the store, website, etc.

More than likely, I will purchase the bar stock and tubing from Industrial Metal Supply here in Tucson. As of yet I have not decided on stainless steel or titanium or aluminum but probably it will be a combination of the
three metals. All the metal will be in their unmachined, raw form when purchased.  

I hope these answers all of the requirements that are needed and requested.

@User55645

No, you misunderstand me.

1. You fill out your form 1 at home.
2. Go to Post Office and buy the type of NFA stamp needed from vending machine or counter clerk. (until Congress removes the $5 AOW class, then only the $200 stamp would remain)
3. Make a copy of Form 1 with stamp attached.
4. Send paper copy via registered mail to ATF, email a copy and site the US Mail registration number.
5. Begin your form 1 project, and enjoy it once finished.

This isn't about requesting permission. This is you doing what you choose to with your God given rights.

This is a revenue law - you have completed your duty to register your tax stamp payment.

Edit: On further thought - this could also apply to Form 4's of personal items sold within your state (non FFL holders) - like a face to face sale of an item your are ready to remove from your collection.

To clarify: This is the way it should be - not the way it is.

it certainly is.

@ProfGAB101
I don't understand how your process would be very different than how it currently operates.
However, I was just making a joke about waiting in line t the post office

Please @ me when you get your approval.  

I am certain you're gonna be approved, as batfe are trying to limit form 1 to the few citizens who have the ability to fabricate a suppressor from raw materials only,  

They have a hardon for 80% receivers, p80 kits and solvent traps/form 1 kits, which they are attempting to criminalize.

I will let everyone know the outcome of this, if denied it means no form 1's will be approved because the raw metal is a suppressor part. If approved is because you need to fabricate everything and also means I will have to thread the suppressor to my AP5 that I am building
it for instead of using a 3-lug mount, because I do not have the milling machine set-up yet to build a 3-lug mount. But I think a 3-lug mount is an accessory if you have a threaded cap on the completed suppressor otherwise how can the different suppressor companies offer them for sale after the fact or sell their suppressors
with 2 or more threaded caps, after all you cannot have spare parts, right? I will find out once this thing is built, if it is allowed the be built.

From researching this mass denial, it seems that they have the names and addresses of the people that ordered from the company (I had not heard of Diversified Machinery till 2 days ago) but not what they ordered. It seems that if you ordered anything from a company that sold "solvent trap kits" in addition other products like muzzle breaks, gas blocks, etc. you will be denied even if you didn't order a single kit or kit part, that is wrong. Also I have read (this is hearsay not a fact) that BATFE is checking the Federal Registry to see if people who have approved Form 1s in the past turn up on the customer lists and revoking their tax stamp and turning them into instant felons overnight. I hope this is just paranoia and not reality.

My email to them had pics of raw material, with copies of my online metals orders going back in some case 5 or more years. Also copies of my amazon purchase history showing metal and mill bits. So I sent pics of material I have on hand and have had for years, kind of hard to say intent was there with an order from 5 years ago when my eform was submitted at the end of dec 21.

I also was very careful and never used the term baffle, just tube and parts. I was extremely non commital, and said things like this is what I have on hand, that I may or may not use.

Interested to hear how yours turns out as well, @StaccatoC2

Hope you get a quick approval.

Went with the "I'm not buying shit cause I don't trust you and I'm just trying to follow the rules" cause it's true. I have nothing on hand so no photos. Just wanted a approval and was going to figure out the rest later when I have the time. No lathe, so I fall into the average form 1'er category so we will see what happens.

Pictures of the parts that you will use to make the silencer (the pictures should be clear and allow the identification of the parts photographed): I do not have any parts to assemble a silencer in my possession as I have not received approval. I was under the impression that submitting a form 1 shows my intent and, should my request be denied, having parts on hand to make a silencer might put me in a bit of a gray area of the law.

A description of the processes you will use to assemble or fabricate the silencer: Cones/baffles/dividers would cut, drilled, and clipped using my benchtop drill press, a ball end mill, and an x-y vice. Because drill presses have some "wobble", I would need to smooth the cuts with hand files. Spacer material (for use between cones/baffles/dividers) would be hand cut from bulk tubing, probably titanium, using a RIDGED 31632 tubing cutter tool. These would be stacked and pressed into a steel tube with threaded ends to create the silencer assembly.

The product, model, or kit name, if any, of each device and/or part that you will use to make the silencer: I will not be using a kit. I will be designing my own. Kits do not allow you to optimize the interior dimensions to suit your chosen caliber or type of firearm.

The source from which the parts were obtained, i.e., the name of the store, website, etc. I have not sourced the material yet as I do not have an approved Form 1, and do not want to place myself in what may be considered a legal gray area. The ATF has used the word "intent" and the interpretation can be very broad. I have no intention of purchasing any parts or materials to build a silencer until an approval is received. I also cannot guarantee where I would purchase materials from as price and availability may change.

I understand I am unable to provide you with all of the information requested. If the above is unacceptable, please disapprove my application and refund me the $200 tax. As the ATF has launched the eForm4 system, which should drastically reduce wait times, I will just start buying silencers directly from dealers.

It's no loophole.  It's infringement.

You cannot tax churches because it violates your freedom of religion.  That's why churches have tax exempt status.

You cannot tax newspapers because it violates your right to free speech.  That's why newspapers are tax exempt.

You cannot create a poll tax in order to be allowed to vote.  That's why you don't have to pay a tax to vote for whoever you want to.  And is tax exempt.

But, they have been taxing the 2nd amendment for nearly 100 years.  And that doesn't even include the double taxation of the FET (Firearms Excise Tax).  Or, the triple tax of sales and paying income taxes to the government if you are a gun manufacturer or licensed firearm dealer.


Explain to me what loophole there is?  It's the government who is out of line.

I am think I am in fbi hold hell. So it might be a while. @viralinsurgency

My condolences, and I hope you're "released" soon,

The paperwork was received at 11:44 AM on 03/07/2022. The new waiting game begins, no denial or approval yet.