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Posted: 2/18/2022 11:36:56 AM EDT
[#1]
With all the back and forth in this thread, I'm now not sure what's true. The question now is, if I put a short barreled upper on a serialized lower from a standard manufacturer, with a stock, and I decide to call it an SBR and submit the paperwork, does it now need an additional serial number and manufacturers name engraved on it?
If so, that means that the lower now has two separate serial numbers and is manufactured by two separate and independent manufacturers. Is that correct? |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 11:39:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all the back and forth in this thread, I'm now not sure what's true. The question now is, if I put a short barreled upper on a serialized lower from a standard manufacturer, with a stock, and I decide to call it an SBR and submit the paperwork, does it now need an additional serial number and manufacturers name engraved on it? If so, that means that the lower now has two separate serial numbers and is manufactured by two separate and independent manufacturers. Is that correct? Engraving for maker info, not additional SN. Eta: THIS explains things w/o all of the banter..... |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 11:41:35 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all the back and forth in this thread, I'm now not sure what's true. The question now is, if I put a short barreled upper on a serialized lower from a standard manufacturer, with a stock, and I decide to call it an SBR and submit the paperwork, does it now need an additional serial number and manufacturers name engraved on it? If so, that means that the lower now has two separate serial numbers and is manufactured by two separate and independent manufacturers. Is that correct? You recycle the serial number. At least I do. Ive never heard of anyone engraving a different SN. So mine gets engraved with: -Obsessed- NFA Trust Somewhere, XX 12345 |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 11:45:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Thanks to both of you.
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Posted: 2/18/2022 11:51:13 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks to both of you. 
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Posted: 2/18/2022 11:59:54 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks to both of you. @Piratepast40 THIS helped me tremendously, hopefully you as well. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 12:07:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all the back and forth in this thread, I'm now not sure what's true. The question now is, if I put a short barreled upper on a serialized lower from a standard manufacturer, with a stock, and I decide to call it an SBR and submit the paperwork, does it now need an additional serial number and manufacturers name engraved on it? If so, that means that the lower now has two separate serial numbers and is manufactured by two separate and independent manufacturers. Is that correct? That is a SBR, get the stamp first. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 12:16:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow, how did that come up? I've been shooting almost nothing but SBRs since 2016 and not once has anyone even asked to see a stamp, let alone go so far as to ask to see my engraving. Guess I have yet to run into anyone who wants to play Junior ATF Agent. I've had a SBR for a whopping four days now. 2 different people have mentioned that I "need to get rid of the VFG before I end up in jail". Most people are so confused by the internet, LGS lore, and a constantly changing aft that they can't discern between legal and illegal anymore. I don't believe that is accidental. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 12:26:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had a SBR for a whopping four days now. 2 different people have mentioned that I "need to get rid of the VFG before I end up in jail". Most people are so confused by the internet, LGS lore, and a constantly changing aft that they can't discern between legal and illegal anymore. I don't believe that is accidental. People that don't know shouldn't speak. Not sure why but every gun owner is an expert in their own mind. A VFG is GTG on an SBR. You're fine. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 3:15:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had a SBR for a whopping four days now. 2 different people have mentioned that I "need to get rid of the VFG before I end up in jail". Most people are so confused by the internet, LGS lore, and a constantly changing aft that they can't discern between legal and illegal anymore. I don't believe that is accidental. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wow, how did that come up? I've been shooting almost nothing but SBRs since 2016 and not once has anyone even asked to see a stamp, let alone go so far as to ask to see my engraving. Guess I have yet to run into anyone who wants to play Junior ATF Agent. I've had a SBR for a whopping four days now. 2 different people have mentioned that I "need to get rid of the VFG before I end up in jail". Most people are so confused by the internet, LGS lore, and a constantly changing aft that they can't discern between legal and illegal anymore. I don't believe that is accidental. So who do you believe is behind it? The truth is that gun laws for the most part haven't changed for a long time. People making stuff up because they can't bother to actually look into the actual rules are to blame for the vast majority of confusion. Sure there are some weird state laws but most people get are too lazy to figure stuff out and that includes "gun people" that are the ones people look to for answers like cops, gun store owners, etc. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 3:39:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So who do you believe is behind it? The truth is that gun laws for the most part haven't changed for a long time. People making stuff up because they can't bother to actually look into the actual rules are to blame for the vast majority of confusion. Sure there are some weird state laws but most people get are too lazy to figure stuff out and that includes "gun people" that are the ones people look to for answers like cops, gun store owners, etc. I bought a can from Silencer shop so not my normal dealer. When I go to pickup stamp during beginning of covid lockdown: You can't, drive license expired. I tell them wrong, governor said they are still good. Call LGS and they send me an email from ATF saying same to show this dealer. Fill out 4473 as normal, they say wait while we call it in. I say you don't do that for a stamp pick up. They argue and say it's required. As they walk away I tell another customer I know the NFA better than this store. Owner hears me. Owner says he knows I'm right but the ATF told them it's safer if they do it anyway. That last line I have posted here before and another big name dealer member here said they do same. My LGS does not. How would an average person know the law? They would believe what a dealer tells them. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 3:53:58 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought a can from Silencer shop so not my normal dealer. When I go to pickup stamp during beginning of covid lockdown: You can't, drive license expired. I tell them wrong, governor said they are still good. Call LGS and they send me an email from ATF saying same to show this dealer. Fill out 4473 as normal, they say wait while we call it in. I say you don't do that for a stamp pick up. They argue and say it's required. As they walk away I tell another customer I know the NFA better than this store. Owner hears me. Owner says he knows I'm right but the ATF told them it's safer if they do it anyway. That last line I have posted here before and another big name dealer member here said they do same. My LGS does not. How would an average person know the law? They would believe what a dealer tells them. Proved my point you have a bad store. As far as how the average person know the law most of it is easily found. For instance I can't even begin the list the amount of bullshit I have run into regarding 4473. Even with instructions for every question on the form itself people still make up their own explanations. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 5:20:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 15 years is long enough to know we avoid stuff like this in the tech forums. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Deleted This isn't GD. 15 years is long enough to know we avoid stuff like this in the tech forums. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 5:54:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Proved my point you have a bad store. As far as how the average person know the law most of it is easily found. For instance I can't even begin the list the amount of bullshit I have run into regarding 4473. Even with instructions for every question on the form itself people still make up their own explanations. The member here that also does same is Brian at Aim, he said so when I posted that before. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 6:29:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The member here that also does same is Brian at Aim, he said so when I posted that before. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Proved my point you have a bad store. As far as how the average person know the law most of it is easily found. For instance I can't even begin the list the amount of bullshit I have run into regarding 4473. Even with instructions for every question on the form itself people still make up their own explanations. The member here that also does same is Brian at Aim, he said so when I posted that before. Find one that doesn't if it bothers you. Calling it in wouldn't bother me unless it added a bunch of delay even though it's unnecessary. I understand why dealers are scared are scared of the ATF. Most of the stuff I was talking about were much worse issues and misunderstandings. |
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Posted: 2/18/2022 6:33:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryThanks for the link. Distinction between manufacturer and maker is important. |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 2:19:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Find one that doesn't if it bothers you. Calling it in wouldn't bother me unless it added a bunch of delay even though it's unnecessary. I understand why dealers are scared are scared of the ATF. Most of the stuff I was talking about were much worse issues and misunderstandings. Your first comment on that was that it proved your point which was my reason for posting it. Most people will believe what a FFL tells them. Not sure what's worse than lying to customers about NFA rules. I won't be using them again since they lied to me. My LGS doesn't call them in, I only went somewhere else to get a can LGS didn't have and Silencer shop did. Imagine driving an hour to pickup a stamp and getting a delay because they called in the 4473 and going home without it after waiting a year for it. Why would a dealer be scared to give me a stamp the ATF already approved? How many background checks are enough to own a muffler? |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 2:48:52 PM EDT
[#18]
This all seems horribly confusing, and it should be rather simple. You would think a simple answer would be that you need:
Your name Your location SBR serial number (and whatever else) It seems, for an AR lower, that you have to use a specific caliber once it's an SBR. Is that true? It seems you have to engrave the caliber on the receiver. Also, seems you have to identify the barrel length somewhere. So, it seems, you aren't allowed to SBR one lower, and then use it to host multiple uppers. Am I understanding this correctly? |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 2:53:43 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This all seems horribly confusing, and it should be rather simple. You would think a simple answer would be that you need: Your name Your location SBR serial number (and whatever else) It seems, for an AR lower, that you have to use a specific caliber once it's an SBR. Is that true? It seems you have to engrave the caliber on the receiver. Also, seems you have to identify the barrel length somewhere. So, it seems, you aren't allowed to SBR one lower, and then use it to host multiple uppers. Am I understanding this correctly? You are not. Caliber had to be marked when first made and it can be on the barrel as well as the receiver. There is nothing that says you can’t change configurations. What did you read that lead you believe that? |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 2:55:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your first comment on that was that it proved your point which was my reason for posting it. Most people will believe what a FFL tells them. Not sure what's worse than lying to customers about NFA rules. I won't be using them again since they lied to me. My LGS doesn't call them in, I only went somewhere else to get a can LGS didn't have and Silencer shop did. Imagine driving an hour to pickup a stamp and getting a delay because they called in the 4473 and going home without it after waiting a year for it. Why would a dealer be scared to give me a stamp the ATF already approved? How many background checks are enough to own a muffler? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Find one that doesn't if it bothers you. Calling it in wouldn't bother me unless it added a bunch of delay even though it's unnecessary. I understand why dealers are scared are scared of the ATF. Most of the stuff I was talking about were much worse issues and misunderstandings. Your first comment on that was that it proved your point which was my reason for posting it. Most people will believe what a FFL tells them. Not sure what's worse than lying to customers about NFA rules. I won't be using them again since they lied to me. My LGS doesn't call them in, I only went somewhere else to get a can LGS didn't have and Silencer shop did. Imagine driving an hour to pickup a stamp and getting a delay because they called in the 4473 and going home without it after waiting a year for it. Why would a dealer be scared to give me a stamp the ATF already approved? How many background checks are enough to own a muffler? Lying and CYA are considerably different to me. If I showed up and got delayed I would be pissed as well which is why I said it wouldn’t bother me as long as it didn’t add delay. One of the problems is that stores are scared of the ATF and I find that perfectly reasonable. |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 2:58:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are not. Caliber had to be marked when first made and it can be on the barrel as well as the receiver. There is nothing that says you can’t change configurations. What did you read that lead you believe that? I read this thread and accompanying information. Said the caliber has to be engraved. There was also a mention of the barrel length. I'll have to dig through and find it in the thread/accompanying info. |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 3:01:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If everyone actually read the instructions for the Form 1, we wouldn't have to answer this question every month. From page 3 of the Definitions/Instructions included with the Form 1 PDF. k. Description of Firearm and Markings. (1) Item 4a. If you are modifying an existing firearm, enter the name and location of the original manufacturer. If you are creating the firearm, enter the maker’s name, city and state. (2) Item 4b. The types of NFA firearms are listed in the definitions; (3) Item 4c. Specify one caliber or gauge. If there is another designation, indicate the designation in item 4h. (4) Item 4d. Show the model designation (if known). (5) Item 4e and 4f. Specify one barrel length and overall length in items 4e and 4f as applicable. Note: if the firearm has a folding or collapsible stock, the overall measurement is to be made with the stock extended. (6) Item 4g. Do not alter or modify the serial number of an existing firearm . Enter the existing serial number or, if a new firearm, one you create. (7) Markings: The maker is required to mark the firearm with the maker’s name, city and state as shown in item 3b. All markings are to be in compliance with 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102. Here is one of the places I saw this |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 4:41:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is one of the places I saw this When you make an SBR, it can only be one length and one caliber…because making it is a one-time action. So you specify the caliber and the barrel/overall lengths on the Form 1. Once that moment in time is done, you can then reconfigure it as you wish. The caliber is indeed one of the markings. But it’s on the barrel 99.44% of the time, which is an allowable location per the regulations. |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 5:22:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No stock attached, not an SBR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It is not an SBR if it is not in SBR format. So take the bare receiver or lower out to be engraved. |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 8:40:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is one of the places I saw this If starting from scratch you have to make sure everything is engraved. If using an existing firearm to make your SBR Name City and State of the maker must be added. On the Form 1 you must specify Caliber Barrel Length and Overall Length. A good place to start is to actually read the Form 1. I always used to recommend people do the same with 4473's. A lot of the stuff people attempt to guess at are spelled out right on the form. |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 8:58:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Take a trip to your local trophy shop…. One did my lower for around $30 any FFL around here wanted a lot more
It’s not like it’s a special skill to do the engraving on a gun vs anything else |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 10:03:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Take a trip to your local trophy shop. One did my lower for around $30 any FFL around here wanted a lot more It's not like it's a special skill to do the engraving on a gun vs anything else |
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Posted: 2/19/2022 10:16:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Local jewelry shop does my firearm engraving.
FFL holder and knows current regs. Class act. |
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Posted: 3/7/2022 12:13:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Not sure if this is the place to ask, but say I have my city name engraved on my lower, but I move towns. Same state, different town. Do I have to get my new town name put onto the lower or is the old one good to go? I’m likely moving in the next few years and I’m planning on SBRing a few things…
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Posted: 3/7/2022 1:05:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure if this is the place to ask, but say I have my city name engraved on my lower, but I move towns. Same state, different town. Do I have to get my new town name put onto the lower or is the old one good to go? I'm likely moving in the next few years and I'm planning on SBRing a few things |
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