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Posted: 8/16/2014 12:36:20 PM EDT
| Hi everyone. Usually I know shipping an upper is not a big deal. Use UPS, USPS etc. However, I'm looking to sbr my cx4 storm. On the cx4 the upper is the serialized part. Does this mean I have to ship it ffl to FFL or anything crazy? |
| what work are you getting done? if it's shortening the barrel, you might consider using a tool like this to pop it off and have it done. |
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Hi everyone. Usually I know shipping an upper is not a big deal. Use UPS, USPS etc. However, I'm looking to sbr my cx4 storm. On the cx4 the upper is the serialized part. Does this mean I have to ship it ffl to FFL or anything crazy? <----FFL No Federal law requires "FFL to FFL". If the upper receiver on a CX4 Storm is considered a firearm then yes, it must ship to a licensed dealer if it crosses state lines. |
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what work are you getting done? if it's shortening the barrel, you might consider using a tool like this to pop it off and have it done. Yup, shortening the barrel. Saw that thread but don't have the tools to make that tool unfortunately. Dogtown, I guess that's my question. How do I find out if the upper is considered the firearm? |
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You can ship it directly to the ffl. But you'll have to declare its a firearm when shipping it, so best to ship it from a FedEx distribution center for example since many local shipping stores are franchises that might refuse shipment even though its legal. Call ahead perhaps to verify.
They can also ship it directly back to you. It does not need to go through an ffl since its already legally yours. |
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Unless I missed something, for the purposes of this post, it does not matter if the barrel is attached to the upper, or not. Removing the barrel does not change the legal status of the receiver.
Separately: Q: Is a licensed gunsmith’s return of repaired or customized firearms to their owners subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees? No, but it is unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of person prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. (See also question “A firearm is delivered to a licensee by an unlicensed individual for the purpose of repair. Is the return of the repaired firearm subject to the requirements of the Brady law? Would the transfer of a replacement firearm from the licensee to the owner of the damaged firearm be subject to the requirements of the Brady law?”) [18 U.S.C. 922(d), 27 CFR 478.32(d)] ATF FAQs https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html |
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Dogtown, I guess that's my question. How do I find out if the upper is considered the firearm? If it's the only part of the firearm with a serial number........it's the firearm. If many parts have the serial# you can call ATF Technical Branch or the manufacturer. |
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You can ship it directly to the ffl. But you'll have to declare its a firearm when shipping it, so best to ship it from a FedEx distribution center for example since many local shipping stores are franchises that might refuse shipment even though its legal. Call ahead perhaps to verify. Quoted:
You can ship it directly to the ffl. But you'll have to declare its a firearm when shipping it, so best to ship it from a FedEx distribution center for example since many local shipping stores are franchises that might refuse shipment even though its legal. Call ahead perhaps to verify. FedEx Office locations are all company owned, none are franchises. ... It does not need to go through an ffl since its already legally yours. Being "legally yours" has absolutely nothing to do with it. 
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When I had my lower cerakoted I just put it in a box and took it to FedEx and shipped it to the guy that was doing it (he is FFL) They didn't ask what was in it and I didn't feel the need to tell them. He shipped it back to me by USPS I think, don't think he made any mention of being a firearm either. This was across state lines too.
I have previously shipped one to a FFL to do engraving through UPS and didn't tell them it was a gun either, that was within the same state though and I picked it up in person. |
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You can do that but federal law requires notification. :)
May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30] |
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You can do that but federal law requires notification. :) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30] That FAQ answer from ATF isn't close to being accurate. There is no Federal law that requires notification to the carrier when shipping to a licensee.(the citations to the CFR that are shown will confirm that) It should also be noted that neither UPS or FedEx will ship nonlicensee to nonlicensee in any circumstance. |
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That FAQ answer from ATF isn't close to being accurate. There is no Federal law that requires notification to the carrier when shipping to a licensee.(the citations to the CFR that are shown will confirm that) It should also be noted that neither UPS or FedEx will ship nonlicensee to nonlicensee in any circumstance. Quoted:
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You can do that but federal law requires notification. :) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30] That FAQ answer from ATF isn't close to being accurate. There is no Federal law that requires notification to the carrier when shipping to a licensee.(the citations to the CFR that are shown will confirm that) It should also be noted that neither UPS or FedEx will ship nonlicensee to nonlicensee in any circumstance. Hmmm... Looks pretty darn accurate to my layman's interpretation.  Can you explain what you mean by not even close to accurate, and how you would interpret this which comes right out of the CFR?
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=a921bbeabaf716ff9246d4af3329bcb9&node=se27.3.478_131&rgn=div8
§478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part. Seems pretty clear that notice to the carrier is required Oh and that this same requirement to notify applies equally to ammunition... |
| Not sure why this thread has devolved into a discussion on all theoretical shipping of firearms. The OP has a long gun with a serialized upper. The answer is very basic. Yes, the serialized upper receiver is the firearm. Yes, you may ship it, but only to an FFL if going across state lines. You do not have to ship it from an FFL. Yes, you may ship either via USPS or other carrier service. Their internal regulations vary on how to declare the firearm. If the receiving FFL is merely chopping the barrel for you on an already-SBR'ed rifle, he can ship it back to you directly without a local FFL. If the FFL is actually registering the rifle for you as an SBR on a Form 2, he will have to ship it back to you via a local Class 3 SOT, who will then transfer it to you via Form 4 like any other factory NFA weapon. |
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Hmmm... Looks pretty darn accurate to my layman's interpretation. Can you explain what you mean by not even close to accurate, and how you would interpret this which comes right out of the CFR?
[div style='margin-left: 40px;']http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=a921bbeabaf716ff9246d4af3329bcb9&node=se27.3.478_131&rgn=div8 §478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part. Seems pretty clear that notice to the carrier is required Oh and that this same requirement to notify applies equally to ammunition... Quoted:
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You can do that but federal law requires notification. :) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30] That FAQ answer from ATF isn't close to being accurate. There is no Federal law that requires notification to the carrier when shipping to a licensee.(the citations to the CFR that are shown will confirm that) It should also be noted that neither UPS or FedEx will ship nonlicensee to nonlicensee in any circumstance. Hmmm... Looks pretty darn accurate to my layman's interpretation. Can you explain what you mean by not even close to accurate, and how you would interpret this which comes right out of the CFR?
[div style='margin-left: 40px;']http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=a921bbeabaf716ff9246d4af3329bcb9&node=se27.3.478_131&rgn=div8 §478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part. Seems pretty clear that notice to the carrier is required Oh and that this same requirement to notify applies equally to ammunition... Read before you highlight. 
Here's ATF's FAQ answer: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. And here is the actual citation from the CFR: §478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm..... The FAQ answer says notification is required, yet the CFR says it's only required when shipping interstate to someone who IS NOT a licensee. And with two narrow exceptions that would be illegal anyway. ATF has admitted that their FAQ is wrong (read the FFL Newsletters at ATF.gov) yet refuses to change that FAQ answer. So, while it's not illegal to ship a firearm interstate to a licensed dealer, manufacturer, etc, without notification, it remains a requirement of most common carriers. If you fail to abide by the carriers tariffs and the firearm is lost, damaged or stolen............you'll get jack squat on any insurance claim. |
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Not sure why this thread has devolved into a discussion on all theoretical shipping of firearms. The OP has a long gun with a serialized upper. The answer is very basic. Yes, the serialized upper receiver is the firearm. Yes, you may ship it, but only to an FFL if going across state lines. You do not have to ship it from an FFL. Yes, you may ship either via USPS or other carrier service. Their internal regulations vary on how to declare the firearm. If the receiving FFL is merely chopping the barrel for you on an already-SBR'ed rifle, he can ship it back to you directly without a local FFL. If the FFL is actually registering the rifle for you as an SBR on a Form 2, he will have to ship it back to you via a local Class 3 SOT, who will then transfer it to you via Form 4 like any other factory NFA weapon. No sir.....the answer is not as "basic" as you believe.
While anyone may use the USPS to mail rifles or shotguns, firearms that are capable of being concealed on the body (such as handguns, frames, receivers, etc) ARE NOT MAILABLE except by licensed dealers and manufacturers. |
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Yes, it is that basic. He has already stated he is shipping the assembled upper with a 16" barrel in it. It is not a stripped receiver, it is basically an assembled full-length rifle since the upper is serialized. It can be mailed. Read the OP again.
The OP is asking about shipping a receiver with barrel. A rifle has BOTH a barrel and a shoulder stock. Remove either and it doesn't meet the definition of "Rifle" under Federal law. |
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Read the OP again.
The OP is asking about shipping a receiver with barrel. A rifle has BOTH a barrel and a shoulder stock. Remove either and it doesn't meet the definition of "Rifle" under Federal law. Quoted:
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Yes, it is that basic. He has already stated he is shipping the assembled upper with a 16" barrel in it. It is not a stripped receiver, it is basically an assembled full-length rifle since the upper is serialized. It can be mailed. Read the OP again.
The OP is asking about shipping a receiver with barrel. A rifle has BOTH a barrel and a shoulder stock. Remove either and it doesn't meet the definition of "Rifle" under Federal law. It's still a rifle because it had a stock. And actually still has a stock, even if not currently installed. |
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