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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Can I...? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/28/2013 5:21:02 PM EDT
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I did some searching but came up empty handed.
I sent off my Form 1 a few weeks ago and I am starting to collect more parts for my first SBR. My question is, can I go ahead and order my short barrel (11.5") and keep it some where that has NO ar lowers in the house? For example my girl friends apt? I know it will be a WHILE before I can get her assembled but I cant help collecting the parts now. 
Thanks for the help! |
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Buy it all and just leave the stock at her house. Clarification: This will work, as long as you are building on a virgin lower, or a lower originally built as a pistol. (You would be building a pistol.) If the lower was originally built as a rifle, this will not work. |
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I would buy it without fear and keep it where ever you want. As long as you don't build the SBR upper and put on a non SBR lower you have not committed any crimes. The idea that your door will be kicked in and you will be hauled off for intent to build an illegal SBR is silly. If anything, you have shown that you intend to build a LEGAL SBR by submitting your Form 1.
This is of course just the opinion of some guy on the internet, but until someone can provide case law where someone was arrested for "constructive intent" I will continue to hold my opinion. |
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I would buy it without fear and keep it where ever you want. As long as you don't build the SBR upper and put on a non SBR lower you have not committed any crimes. The idea that your door will be kicked in and you will be hauled off for intent to build an illegal SBR is silly. If anything, you have shown that you intend to build a LEGAL SBR by submitting your Form 1. This is of course just the opinion of some guy on the internet, but until someone can provide case law where someone was arrested for "constructive intent" I will continue to hold my opinion. I've always felt this way.. I would keep it in the safe that only I know the combination of. How the hell are they going to know what is/not in there without a search warrant. What grounds could they get a search warrant on even if they had suspicion? The whole idea of it is silly to me as well. Buy parts, don't preach it to everyone, store locked up in safe, don't build it until you get all paperwork.. Just my honest opinion... |
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until someone can provide case law where someone was arrested for "constructive intent" I will continue to hold my opinion. Florida man arrested on State charges Quoted:
I've always felt this way.. I would keep it in the safe that only I know the combination of. How the hell are they going to know what is/not in there without a search warrant. What grounds could they get a search warrant on even if they had suspicion? The whole idea of it is silly to me as well. Buy parts, don't preach it to everyone, store locked up in safe, don't build it until you get all paperwork.. Just my honest opinion... The problem with honest opinions is they do not reflect the law. You run into trouble if you have all the parts to build an SBR, and no other legal use for them. e.g. you only own a Title I AR, and have a short barrel in your possession. Protection Against Inadvertent Violations of the National Firearms Act. Under the National Firearms Act (hereinafter the “Act”), 26 U.S.C 5861 (2011), possession, either actual or constructive, rather than ownership is punishable. Constructive possession exists when a person knowingly has the power at a given time to exercise dominion and control over an object, either directly or through others. In the event of a violation under the Act any person, upon conviction, may be fined up to $10,000, or be imprisoned up to ten years, or both.
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I would buy it without fear and keep it where ever you want. As long as you don't build the SBR upper and put on a non SBR lower you have not committed any crimes. The idea that your door will be kicked in and you will be hauled off for intent to build an illegal SBR is silly. If anything, you have shown that you intend to build a LEGAL SBR by submitting your Form 1. This is of course just the opinion of some guy on the internet, but until someone can provide case law where someone was arrested for "constructive intent" I will continue to hold my opinion. I've always felt this way.. I would keep it in the safe that only I know the combination of. How the hell are they going to know what is/not in there without a search warrant. What grounds could they get a search warrant on even if they had suspicion? The whole idea of it is silly to me as well. Buy parts, don't preach it to everyone, store locked up in safe, don't build it until you get all paperwork.. Just my honest opinion... It's a clear violation of law. Lots of case law as precedent. There is no such thing as constructive intent in firearms law, the term here is Constructive Possession. If you have all the parts to build the SBR and no pathway to their legal use (like a registered machine gun, SBR, pistol, etc), then you are in possession of an unregistered SBR. It's the same charge as if you actually assembled it. "Constructive Intent" pertains to violations of law involving intent, like "assault with intent to do great bodily harm" or "possession with intent to distribute" for drugs. There are no intent violations regarding firearms, constructive possession has no relevance to what your true intentions were in having the parts. You are in violation and subject to prosecution even if you had the best of intentions. Furthermore, the operative condition in all constructive possession cases is that the defendant had "control" of the parts, not possession of them.buying parts and leaving them at your friend's house satisfies possession, but does not satisfy control. He's your friend, it would be reasonable to expect that he'd give it back to you upon request. It's not an entirely safe route to take in acquiring parts before you can legally use them. Getting caught is another story, but you have to remember that most such cases don't result from an active investigation involving a search warrant, they result from incidental discovery. Angry girlfriend calls the police, you have a fire at the house and fire department discovers what they think is a machine gun, gun-hating neighbor sees it through your window, etc. It's very short-sighted to rely on your line of thinking... |
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Quoted: This is of course just the opinion of some guy on the internet, but until someone can provide case law where someone was arrested for "constructive intent" I will continue to hold my opinion. United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992 |
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I just like to be on the "better safe than sorry" side. I appreciate the responses. I will just slap a pistol buffer on my lower and build her out as a pistol until the stamp arrives. Thanks! Wouldnt waste my money on a pistol buffer. I didnt. Wrapped my buffer tube with paracord about an hour ago. |
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I just like to be on the "better safe than sorry" side. I appreciate the responses. I will just slap a pistol buffer on my lower and build her out as a pistol until the stamp arrives. Thanks! Wouldnt waste my money on a pistol buffer. I didnt. Wrapped my buffer tube with paracord about an hour ago. Wrapping paracord around a rifle buffer tube doesn't change the fact that the buffer tube was made to be fitted with a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder. That, combined with a rifled barrel, satisfies the requirements for a rifle. You can not wrap paracord around a rifle buffer tube and install a <16" upper as you'd be creating a SBR. |
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I just like to be on the "better safe than sorry" side. I appreciate the responses. I will just slap a pistol buffer on my lower and build her out as a pistol until the stamp arrives. Thanks! Wouldnt waste my money on a pistol buffer. I didnt. Wrapped my buffer tube with paracord about an hour ago. Wrapping paracord around a rifle buffer tube doesn't change the fact that the buffer tube was made to be fitted with a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder. That, combined with a rifled barrel, satisfies the requirements for a rifle. You can not wrap paracord around a rifle buffer tube and install a <16" upper as you'd be creating a SBR. I am going to have to disagree with that. From what I have been reading I am perfectly fine with what I did. I also dont have a loose stock hanging around the house. Here is a thread I was reading. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just like to be on the "better safe than sorry" side. I appreciate the responses. I will just slap a pistol buffer on my lower and build her out as a pistol until the stamp arrives. Thanks! Wouldnt waste my money on a pistol buffer. I didnt. Wrapped my buffer tube with paracord about an hour ago. Wrapping paracord around a rifle buffer tube doesn't change the fact that the buffer tube was made to be fitted with a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder. That, combined with a rifled barrel, satisfies the requirements for a rifle. You can not wrap paracord around a rifle buffer tube and install a <16" upper as you'd be creating a SBR. Let's wrap paracord around an illegal MG, and then it won't be a MG! The gyrations folks go through to convince themselves they are not on the wrong side of the law is hilarious.
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I just like to be on the "better safe than sorry" side. I appreciate the responses. I will just slap a pistol buffer on my lower and build her out as a pistol until the stamp arrives. Thanks! Wouldnt waste my money on a pistol buffer. I didnt. Wrapped my buffer tube with paracord about an hour ago. Wrapping paracord around a rifle buffer tube doesn't change the fact that the buffer tube was made to be fitted with a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder. That, combined with a rifled barrel, satisfies the requirements for a rifle. You can not wrap paracord around a rifle buffer tube and install a <16" upper as you'd be creating a SBR. I am going to have to disagree with that. From what I have been reading I am perfectly fine with what I did. I also dont have a loose stock hanging around the house. Here is a thread I was reading. Disagree if you like, but you'd still be wrong. The threads you should be reading are 26 USC § 5845(c) and 18 USC § 921(a)(6) |
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A buffer tube, rifle or pistol, is NOT designed to be fired from the shoulder. A stock is designed to be fired from the shoulder. They are two separate parts. Write the ATF a letter asking them about this. You are confusing "designed to be fired from the shoulder", and "is the piece that contacts the users shoulder". By that same logic you presented, you could take the stock off any AK and wrap paracord around the rear trunnion making it a pistol. The fact that it doesn't have the piece that connects to the users shoulder is irrelevant. That it was designed to accept a stock and be fired from the shoulder is what is important and is what the law says. |
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I would buy it without fear and keep it where ever you want. As long as you don't build the SBR upper and put on a non SBR lower you have not committed any crimes. The idea that your door will be kicked in and you will be hauled off for intent to build an illegal SBR is silly. If anything, you have shown that you intend to build a LEGAL SBR by submitting your Form 1. This is of course just the opinion of some guy on the internet, but until someone can provide case law where someone was arrested for "constructive intent" I will continue to hold my opinion. I've always felt this way.. I would keep it in the safe that only I know the combination of. How the hell are they going to know what is/not in there without a search warrant. What grounds could they get a search warrant on even if they had suspicion? The whole idea of it is silly to me as well. Buy parts, don't preach it to everyone, store locked up in safe, don't build it until you get all paperwork.. Just my honest opinion... It's a clear violation of law. Lots of case law as precedent. There is no such thing as constructive intent in firearms law, the term here is Constructive Possession. If you have all the parts to build the SBR and no pathway to their legal use (like a registered machine gun, SBR, pistol, etc), then you are in possession of an unregistered SBR. It's the same charge as if you actually assembled it. "Constructive Intent" pertains to violations of law involving intent, like "assault with intent to do great bodily harm" or "possession with intent to distribute" for drugs. There are no intent violations regarding firearms, constructive possession has no relevance to what your true intentions were in having the parts. You are in violation and subject to prosecution even if you had the best of intentions. Furthermore, the operative condition in all constructive possession cases is that the defendant had "control" of the parts, not possession of them.buying parts and leaving them at your friend's house satisfies possession, but does not satisfy control. He's your friend, it would be reasonable to expect that he'd give it back to you upon request. It's not an entirely safe route to take in acquiring parts before you can legally use them. Getting caught is another story, but you have to remember that most such cases don't result from an active investigation involving a search warrant, they result from incidental discovery. Angry girlfriend calls the police, you have a fire at the house and fire department discovers what they think is a machine gun, gun-hating neighbor sees it through your window, etc. It's very short-sighted to rely on your line of thinking... Although I agree with everything you have said with regards to constructive possession. I must disagree with this part. I can almost guarantee most local LEO's will know dick about constructive possession in regards to unassembled parts. This is coming from a LEO  besides, at least in my state, there's no state law against possessing parts, only assembled SBR's, MG's, etc... I'm not saying it's not possible, and obviously I wouldn't advocate to anyone to risk it, but let's be realistic here. The folks who get jammed by the ATF did so by already F'ing up elsewhere and ending up on their radar screen already.
Id be willing to bet there's a shit ton of unregistered/illegal SBR's that we never hear of people getting caught with. How many uneducated dumbasses buy pistol AR's at the local gun shop, then think, "this things dumb, why didn't they put a stock on it." Quick trip to Amazon and they have a stock and buffer enroute, all the while not realizing they are committing a felony. I've personally heard dumbasses at gun shops looking at AR pistols and talking about putting a stock on it, even trying to explain WHY they legally can't, still gets looks from them.
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A buffer tube, rifle or pistol, is NOT designed to be fired from the shoulder. A stock is designed to be fired from the shoulder. They are two separate parts. Write the ATF a letter asking them about this. This is correct and not to mention pistol buffers have not been around very long. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Getting caught is another story, but you have to remember that most such cases don't result from an active investigation involving a search warrant, they result from incidental discovery. Angry girlfriend calls the police, you have a fire at the house and fire department discovers what they think is a machine gun, gun-hating neighbor sees it through your window, etc. Although I agree with everything you have said with regards to constructive possession. I must disagree with this part. I can almost guarantee most local LEO's will know dick about constructive possession in regards to unassembled parts. This is coming from a LEO Not sure where you see any mention of local LEOs in his post. But Homeinvader is right. Most get caught by incidental discovery. Ex-Girlfriends have probably put more otherwise law-abiding folks in jail than all other causes combined.
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First off, I am not a lawyer, do not pretend to be one, play one on TV, nor sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Plenty of guys have ordered short barrels pre-stamp and not gotten in trouble. As stated before, most charges from constructive posession come from accidental or neglegent discovery. Say you want to have a 14.5" barrel with permed flash hider. If you also have a nonSBR lower at your house, the minute the brown truck of happiness drops off your barrel, you're commiting a felonious act. Even if you run to the garage and immediately perm attach the flash hider, you were committing the crime while running to the TIG machine. Police do not accompany UPS drivers. 
In today's political climate and buying frenzy, if you could find the barrel and all the parts you need for a halfway decent price, I would snatch them up. Find a good hiding place, wrap them in tinfoil, dont show them off, or store them at a friend's house if that makes you feel more comfortable. When your stamp arrives build your upper or put your stock on and buy all the short barrels you want. You can also scoff at the law by having a pistol marked lower (stripped or complete) and your short barrel (stripped or complete upper) and be perfectly legal. While we are on the subject of stupid laws, I sure hope you dont have any title 1 firearms and a hacksaw under the same roof. You can legally have an AR upper reciever clamshell, bench vise, torque wrench, barrel nut wrench and/or combo tool, moly grease, roll pin punches, and knowledge of how to properly operate all those things. |
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First off, I am not a lawyer, do not pretend to be one, play one on TV, nor sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Plenty of guys have ordered short barrels pre-stamp and not gotten in trouble. As stated before, most charges from constructive posession come from accidental or neglegent discovery. Say you want to have a 14.5" barrel with permed flash hider. If you also have a nonSBR lower at your house, the minute the brown truck of happiness drops off your barrel, you're commiting a felonious act. Even if you run to the garage and immediately perm attach the flash hider, you were committing the crime while running to the TIG machine. Police do not accompany UPS drivers.
In today's political climate and buying frenzy, if you could find the barrel and all the parts you need for a halfway decent price, I would snatch them up. Find a good hiding place, wrap them in tinfoil, dont show them off, or store them at a friend's house if that makes you feel more comfortable. When your stamp arrives build your upper or put your stock on and buy all the short barrels you want. You can also scoff at the law by having a pistol marked lower (stripped or complete) and your short barrel (stripped or complete upper) and be perfectly legal. While we are on the subject of stupid laws, I sure hope you dont have any title 1 firearms and a hacksaw under the same roof. You can legally have an AR upper reciever clamshell, bench vise, torque wrench, barrel nut wrench and/or combo tool, moly grease, roll pin punches, and knowledge of how to properly operate all those things. Having Title I firearms and a hacksaw is irrelevant as each have legal uses. The issue is not with the ability to create a SBR, but having possession of the necessary parts for a SBR without having gone through the registration process. |
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Getting caught is another story, but you have to remember that most such cases don't result from an active investigation involving a search warrant, they result from incidental discovery. Angry girlfriend calls the police, you have a fire at the house and fire department discovers what they think is a machine gun, gun-hating neighbor sees it through your window, etc. Although I agree with everything you have said with regards to constructive possession. I must disagree with this part. I can almost guarantee most local LEO's will know dick about constructive possession in regards to unassembled parts. This is coming from a LEO Not sure where you see any mention of local LEOs in his post. But Homeinvader is right. Most get caught by incidental discovery. Ex-Girlfriends have probably put more otherwise law-abiding folks in jail than all other causes combined. Uhh...I believe SMPrider was referring to himself as being a LEO. |
| I have to disagree with ak...wrapping paracord around a buffer or not wrapping paracord around a buffer does not make it a SBR. Hasn't this been discussed to death! No stock is what matters. Using a regular buffer on a pistol build is perfectly legal. Many like to avoid any question of legality and use pistol buffers. Someone asks about this every week for the last 5 years it seems. Please correct me. |
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I'm not trying to be a jerk, but why play with fire??? You have a 6 month wait for stamp. Just wait for stamp and then overnight parts. No reason to play with fire here. You have a point. As of now I am just collecting all my parts except for the barrel. Then when it comes to that time I will decide what I am going to do. I appreciate everyones responses and opinions. |
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wrapping paracord around a buffer or not wrapping paracord around a buffer does not make it a SBR. Agreed. The rifle buffer tube, that is designed to be fired from the shoulder, is what makes it an SBR. Paracord has nothing to do with whether the rifle was designed to be fired from the shoulder. |
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I just like to be on the "better safe than sorry" side. I appreciate the responses. I will just slap a pistol buffer on my lower and build her out as a pistol until the stamp arrives. Thanks! Wouldnt waste my money on a pistol buffer. I didnt. Wrapped my buffer tube with paracord about an hour ago. Wrapping paracord around a rifle buffer tube doesn't change the fact that the buffer tube was made to be fitted with a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder. That, combined with a rifled barrel, satisfies the requirements for a rifle. You can not wrap paracord around a rifle buffer tube and install a <16" upper as you'd be creating a SBR. Bullshit. Go read a book...particularly the NFA Handbook...and some ATF Tech Branch decisions. As long as you don't have an extra buttstock laying around the house you're fine. You don't even need to wrap the stock if you don't want to. OP if you're worried...paracord wrap and/or plastidip until the F1 comes back. |
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wrapping paracord around a buffer or not wrapping paracord around a buffer does not make it a SBR. Agreed. The rifle buffer tube, that is designed to be fired from the shoulder, is what makes it an SBR. Paracord has nothing to do with whether the rifle was designed to be fired from the shoulder.  ...The stock makes it an SBR.
OP...obviously your choice...but plenty of people come in here and post up how they waited 6 months for a stamp, another few weeks for the parts, put it all together, and went to the range only to find the SBR won't run. Now they're troubleshooting their SBR instead of enjoying it. Even seen a few do the same only to find out the AR lower is out of spec. Wasted stamp. Build as a pistol, ensure it runs 100%, get it engraved, and now all you need is a stamp and a stock. That's the safe bet. If you're paranoid buy a full size pistol buffer...but for sanity sake build the darn thing and ensure it functions properly. From this with no spare buttstocks in the house: 
To this after the approved F1 came back: 
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wrapping paracord around a buffer or not wrapping paracord around a buffer does not make it a SBR. Agreed. The rifle buffer tube, that is designed to be fired from the shoulder, is what makes it an SBR. Paracord has nothing to do with whether the rifle was designed to be fired from the shoulder. ...The stock makes it an SBR.
OP...obviously your choice...but plenty of people come in here and post up how they waited 6 months for a stamp, another few weeks for the parts, put it all together, and went to the range only to find the SBR won't run. Now they're troubleshooting their SBR instead of enjoying it. Even seen a few do the same only to find out the AR lower is out of spec. Wasted stamp. Build as a pistol, ensure it runs 100%, get it engraved, and now all you need is a stamp and a stock. That's the safe bet. If you're paranoid buy a full size pistol buffer...but for sanity sake build the darn thing and ensure it functions properly. From this with no spare buttstocks in the house: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/IMG_2077.jpg To this after the approved F1 came back: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/IMG_7622.jpg Nice rifle. Is that an 11.5" barrel? Just curious because that is what I am building. |
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I just like to be on the "better safe than sorry" side. I appreciate the responses. I will just slap a pistol buffer on my lower and build her out as a pistol until the stamp arrives. Thanks! Wouldnt waste my money on a pistol buffer. I didnt. Wrapped my buffer tube with paracord about an hour ago. Wrapping paracord around a rifle buffer tube doesn't change the fact that the buffer tube was made to be fitted with a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder. That, combined with a rifled barrel, satisfies the requirements for a rifle. You can not wrap paracord around a rifle buffer tube and install a <16" upper as you'd be creating a SBR. Bullshit. Go read a book...particularly the NFA Handbook...and some ATF Tech Branch decisions. As long as you don't have an extra buttstock laying around the house you're fine. You don't even need to wrap the stock if you don't want to. OP if you're worried...paracord wrap and/or plastidip until the F1 comes back. Read the law: 26 USC § 5845(c) and 18 USC § 921(a)(6) You are confusing ability to be fired from the shoulder with designed to be fired from the shoulder. |
| Yes...11.5" Noveske barrel...KAC URX Midlength rail...AAC 51T Brake. I wrapped the stock because the LMT buffer tube had a grey film that would rub off onto your hand or cheek when you shot the rifle or handled it. I didnt' have a spare stock and therefore no worries about "constructive intent". |
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I just like to be on the "better safe than sorry" side. I appreciate the responses. I will just slap a pistol buffer on my lower and build her out as a pistol until the stamp arrives. Thanks! Wouldnt waste my money on a pistol buffer. I didnt. Wrapped my buffer tube with paracord about an hour ago. Wrapping paracord around a rifle buffer tube doesn't change the fact that the buffer tube was made to be fitted with a stock, and is designed to be fired from the shoulder. That, combined with a rifled barrel, satisfies the requirements for a rifle. You can not wrap paracord around a rifle buffer tube and install a <16" upper as you'd be creating a SBR. Bullshit. Go read a book...particularly the NFA Handbook...and some ATF Tech Branch decisions. As long as you don't have an extra buttstock laying around the house you're fine. You don't even need to wrap the stock if you don't want to. OP if you're worried...paracord wrap and/or plastidip until the F1 comes back. Read the law: 26 USC § 5845(c) and 18 USC § 921(a)(6) You are confusing ability to be fired from the shoulder with designed to be fired from the shoulder. Regardless of which code you reference, a buffer tube is not designed nor are you able to fire it from the shoulder. A buffer tube designed for a stock vs. a pistol buffer tube...what's the difference? Same length. One has notches for the locking mechanism of a stock and one doesn't. Either in just tube form are legal to be used on a pistol build. The ATF has confirmed this time and time again. |
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A buffer tube designed for a stock vs. a pistol buffer tube...what's the difference? Thats exactly the difference. Designed for a stock means its designed to be fired from the shoulder. Quoted:
Regardless of which code you reference, a buffer tube is not designed nor are you able to fire it from the shoulder. A buffer tube designed for a stock vs. a pistol buffer tube...what's the difference? Same length. One has notches for the locking mechanism of a stock and one doesn't. Either in just tube form are legal to be used on a pistol build. The ATF has confirmed this time and time again. The difference is one has notches to accept a stock, making it designed to be fired from the shoulder. The only reason those notches exist is they are design built to allow a stock to be attached. Designed to be fired from the shoulder. There is an important distinction between "designed to be fired from the shoulder" and "is the piece that actually touches the shoulder". The BATFE is not okay with an AK pistol with an AKM rear trunnion, instead of a pistol trunnion. One has notches for a stock to be attached, one doesn't, but since one is designed for the rifle to be fired from the shoulder it is not legal without tax stamp, regardless of how much paracord is wrapped around it. Quoted:
The ATF has confirmed this time and time again. Great, post the ruling or case here so we can all be on our way. |
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The tube isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder without a stock. Hence why I said no stock in your possession and you're fine. Write the ATF for clarification yourself (as many of us have) if you can't manage to figure it out. Not sure why you're arguing about this. Do you work for the ATF? Or are you just another internet expert...
CMS ETA: Here's one of many letters other members have received...with the same answer to that exact question in the letter I received. 
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Great, post the ruling or case here so we can all be on our way. Quoted:
The tube isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder without a stock. Hence why I said no stock in your possession and you're fine. Write the ATF for clarification yourself (as many of us have) if you can't manage to figure it out. Not sure why you're arguing about this. Do you work for the ATF? Or are you just another internet expert... CMS ETA: Here's one of many letters other members have received...with the same answer to that exact question in the letter I received. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/BB_zps84841f53.jpg Crickets.... 
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Great, post the ruling or case here so we can all be on our way. Quoted:
The tube isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder without a stock. Hence why I said no stock in your possession and you're fine. Write the ATF for clarification yourself (as many of us have) if you can't manage to figure it out. Not sure why you're arguing about this. Do you work for the ATF? Or are you just another internet expert... CMS ETA: Here's one of many letters other members have received...with the same answer to that exact question in the letter I received. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/BB_zps84841f53.jpg Crickets....
Not really anything left to discuss. I had not seen that letter before, thanks for putting the correct information out there. |
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Great, post the ruling or case here so we can all be on our way. Quoted:
The tube isn't designed to be fired from the shoulder without a stock. Hence why I said no stock in your possession and you're fine. Write the ATF for clarification yourself (as many of us have) if you can't manage to figure it out. Not sure why you're arguing about this. Do you work for the ATF? Or are you just another internet expert... CMS ETA: Here's one of many letters other members have received...with the same answer to that exact question in the letter I received. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/BB_zps84841f53.jpg Crickets....
Not really anything left to discuss. I had not seen that letter before, thanks for putting the correct information out there. Just for future reference, one's reading of law and regulation itself cannot adequately determine legality. That's like using only chapter 1 of a book in determining how a story ends. Only the courts can interpret law, so you have to read the case law to determine legality. |
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Getting caught is another story, but you have to remember that most such cases don't result from an active investigation involving a search warrant, they result from incidental discovery. Angry girlfriend calls the police, you have a fire at the house and fire department discovers what they think is a machine gun, gun-hating neighbor sees it through your window, etc. Although I agree with everything you have said with regards to constructive possession. I must disagree with this part. I can almost guarantee most local LEO's will know dick about constructive possession in regards to unassembled parts. This is coming from a LEO Not sure where you see any mention of local LEOs in his post. But Homeinvader is right. Most get caught by incidental discovery. Ex-Girlfriends have probably put more otherwise law-abiding folks in jail than all other causes combined. Oh I dunno, I guess when he said girlfriend calls POLICE, I assumed local LEO. On a side note, I've been on thousands of domestics and never once had an ATF agent cover me, just sayin
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Getting caught is another story, but you have to remember that most such cases don't result from an active investigation involving a search warrant, they result from incidental discovery. Angry girlfriend calls the police, you have a fire at the house and fire department discovers what they think is a machine gun, gun-hating neighbor sees it through your window, etc. Although I agree with everything you have said with regards to constructive possession. I must disagree with this part. I can almost guarantee most local LEO's will know dick about constructive possession in regards to unassembled parts. This is coming from a LEO Not sure where you see any mention of local LEOs in his post. But Homeinvader is right. Most get caught by incidental discovery. Ex-Girlfriends have probably put more otherwise law-abiding folks in jail than all other causes combined. Oh I dunno, I guess when he said girlfriend calls POLICE, I assumed local LEO. On a side note, I've been on thousands of domestics and never once had an ATF agent cover me, just sayin
No - but if you discovered an illegal weapon or suspect parts who do you call??? If a call comes through to dispatch with an anonymous tip of an illegal weapon, what is the dept protocol? Knowing "dick" about laws doesn't stop LEOs from investigating crimes or defering to the appropriate athourities. |
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Getting caught is another story, but you have to remember that most such cases don't result from an active investigation involving a search warrant, they result from incidental discovery. Angry girlfriend calls the police, you have a fire at the house and fire department discovers what they think is a machine gun, gun-hating neighbor sees it through your window, etc. Although I agree with everything you have said with regards to constructive possession. I must disagree with this part. I can almost guarantee most local LEO's will know dick about constructive possession in regards to unassembled parts. This is coming from a LEO Not sure where you see any mention of local LEOs in his post. But Homeinvader is right. Most get caught by incidental discovery. Ex-Girlfriends have probably put more otherwise law-abiding folks in jail than all other causes combined. Oh I dunno, I guess when he said girlfriend calls POLICE, I assumed local LEO. On a side note, I've been on thousands of domestics and never once had an ATF agent cover me, just sayin
No - but if you discovered an illegal weapon or suspect parts who do you call??? If a call comes through to dispatch with an anonymous tip of an illegal weapon, what is the dept protocol? Knowing "dick" about laws doesn't stop LEOs from investigating crimes or defering to the appropriate athourities. There are very very few patrol cops who would know dick about NFA laws. I would bet in my agency of 170+ patrol cops, there's maybe 3 of us who would even have a clue about constructive possession, and that's cuz we are heavy NFA stamp collectors. And if I discovered an illegal weapon, I'd make an arrest if PC existed and I'm sure the report would end up in the hands of the ATF, who wouldn't look twice at it cuz, what a lot of people here don't realize, they got better shit to do than worry about an illegal SBR. Now if you were manufacturing and selling illegal machine guns, they may be interested. And an "anonymous" tip MAY, at best, get a knock and talk. It sure as shit isn't enough to establish PC to get a warrant. Most likely scenario, the call gets dumped as area info, since in our world anonymous doesn't amount to dick. |
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Getting caught is another story, but you have to remember that most such cases don't result from an active investigation involving a search warrant, they result from incidental discovery. Angry girlfriend calls the police, you have a fire at the house and fire department discovers what they think is a machine gun, gun-hating neighbor sees it through your window, etc. Although I agree with everything you have said with regards to constructive possession. I must disagree with this part. I can almost guarantee most local LEO's will know dick about constructive possession in regards to unassembled parts. This is coming from a LEO Not sure where you see any mention of local LEOs in his post. But Homeinvader is right. Most get caught by incidental discovery. Ex-Girlfriends have probably put more otherwise law-abiding folks in jail than all other causes combined. Oh I dunno, I guess when he said girlfriend calls POLICE, I assumed local LEO. On a side note, I've been on thousands of domestics and never once had an ATF agent cover me, just sayin
No - but if you discovered an illegal weapon or suspect parts who do you call??? If a call comes through to dispatch with an anonymous tip of an illegal weapon, what is the dept protocol? Knowing "dick" about laws doesn't stop LEOs from investigating crimes or defering to the appropriate athourities. There are very very few patrol cops who would know dick about NFA laws. I would bet in my agency of 170+ patrol cops, there's maybe 3 of us who would even have a clue about constructive possession, and that's cuz we are heavy NFA stamp collectors. And if I discovered an illegal weapon, I'd make an arrest if PC existed and I'm sure the report would end up in the hands of the ATF, who wouldn't look twice at it cuz, what a lot of people here don't realize, they got better shit to do than worry about an illegal SBR. Now if you were manufacturing and selling illegal machine guns, they may be interested. And an "anonymous" tip MAY, at best, get a knock and talk. It sure as shit isn't enough to establish PC to get a warrant. Most likely scenario, the call gets dumped as area info, since in our world anonymous doesn't amount to dick. A real world example: Picture of child with handgun on facebook reported to police by "the mother of the baby mama." Cops kick in door to serve arrest warrant. Gun ends up being a bb gun and father was posing the kid with it for some fun pics. Guy still gets arrested and sent to jail for child endangerment. Has to endure the public humiliation, posting bond, and paying for lawyers to try and straighten out a mess that a simple conversation would have likely fixed. My experience - Never give "the man" a reason to pay you a visit. There are very little secrets that don't go public in this day and age. |
Soo I got my pistol put together tonight. Finally got all my parts in. Going to run her tomorrow, hopefully she runs good. Sorry for the crappy cell pics. 
Specs: PSA Lower PSA parts kit ALG combat trigger KNS pins Milspec buffertube with H buffer AeroPrecision Upper BCM BCG Spikes FN LW 11.5" barrel Griffin Armament Comp Vltor clamp on gas block Magpul MBUS and grip Spike 10" BAR rail 
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First off, I am not a lawyer, do not pretend to be one, play one on TV, nor sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Plenty of guys have ordered short barrels pre-stamp and not gotten in trouble. As stated before, most charges from constructive posession come from accidental or neglegent discovery. Say you want to have a 14.5" barrel with permed flash hider. If you also have a nonSBR lower at your house, the minute the brown truck of happiness drops off your barrel, you're commiting a felonious act. Even if you run to the garage and immediately perm attach the flash hider, you were committing the crime while running to the TIG machine. Police do not accompany UPS drivers.
In today's political climate and buying frenzy, if you could find the barrel and all the parts you need for a halfway decent price, I would snatch them up. Find a good hiding place, wrap them in tinfoil, dont show them off, or store them at a friend's house if that makes you feel more comfortable. When your stamp arrives build your upper or put your stock on and buy all the short barrels you want. You can also scoff at the law by having a pistol marked lower (stripped or complete) and your short barrel (stripped or complete upper) and be perfectly legal. While we are on the subject of stupid laws, I sure hope you dont have any title 1 firearms and a hacksaw under the same roof. You can legally have an AR upper reciever clamshell, bench vise, torque wrench, barrel nut wrench and/or combo tool, moly grease, roll pin punches, and knowledge of how to properly operate all those things. Having Title I firearms and a hacksaw is irrelevant as each have legal uses. The issue is not with the ability to create a SBR, but having possession of the necessary parts for a SBR without having gone through the registration process. More illogical sillyness. How did anyone ever get away with selling Krinkov, PPsh, etc... parts kits prior to the barrel ban. Every one of them came with a short barrel and buttstock and were all INTENDED to be built into SBRs. The 14.5" barrel thing 19C brought up is also an excellent point. Most everyone in the 14.5" to 16" pic thread, Block II Pic Thread, M4 Clone Pic Thread, etc... has at one point had an "illegal" 14.5" barrel before sending it off to ADCO, AR15barrels, etc... for a pin job by your logic. |
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