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Wahnsinn
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Posted: 12/31/2012 11:55:41 AM
[Last Edit: 12/31/2012 4:13:32 PM by Wahnsinn]
Preface - yes I know you can legally use a carbine buffer tube. What I'm more interested is if and how I must modify the tube so that in the eyes of whoever, I am not falling into constructive intent since I also have a stock that will fit on said buffer tube.

Details - I've got a lower, going to make it into a pistol (22lr at this point once some uppers come back in stock). I've got an extra 6pos stock w/ buffer tube and spring/buffer. Instead of buying a specific pistol buffer tube, what modifications do I need to make (if any) to the tube so that I don't fall into constructive intent? I don't plan on having the stock stored with the pistol, I don't plan on having the stock with me when I go shooting. I've seen where some guys have put JB Weld in the groove. Don't really want to do that in case I want to turn the pistol into a rifle at some point (with an appropriate length barrel of course).

How about this, can I drill a hole in the tube somewhere and install a screw in this hole? That would cause it to require a tool for stock installation. Then if/when I wanted to change to a rifle I would use a tool to remove the screw and then put the stock on (after installing the appropriate length barrel of course).

What exactly (if there is one) is the definition of a stock that could be "readily installed"? Here's my thought, if I have a pistol buffer tube, it would just unscrew from the lower, then you could screw on a regular buffer tube/stock with a tool. What's the difference in needing one tool over another?

Thoughts? Not trying to start shit, just don't want to buy a pistol buffer tube if I don't have to, especially when they are pretty scarce right now.

Thanks!

ETA: I do plan on wrapping the buffer tube in para cord or slipping on some foam or something, if that makes any difference at all.
urbanredneck
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Posted: 12/31/2012 12:58:33 PM
I don't think you do have to modify it other than remove the buttstock. Tag for interest though since I'm planning on using a rifle tube on a looming pistol build as I plan on using it as a rifle platform down the road.
OhShoot
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Posted: 12/31/2012 6:47:40 PM
[Last Edit: 12/31/2012 7:00:44 PM by OhShoot]
You don't need to do anything, just a couple of common sense things not to do, IMO:

- don't be out and about with a an AR pistol only, and have a separate stock with you would be most obvious thing -- although having a complete rifle or rifle upper and a stock with you would be fine.

- if you are the least bit big brother paranoid, don't even have a stock at home unless you also have a complete rifle or rifle upper

The "constructive possession" ruling reads:

" an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a - 3 - complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel)."

- OS
Tony-Ri
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Posted: 1/1/2013 11:52:50 AM
I'd wager a little bit of silicone in the bottom part would go a long way, or perhaps a paracord wrap too. I'm planning on doing the same thing; the local shop has new carbine tubes in stock for only ~$45...
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OhShoot
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Posted: 1/1/2013 7:37:24 PM
[Last Edit: 1/1/2013 7:54:18 PM by OhShoot]
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
I'd wager a little bit of silicone in the bottom part would go a long way, or perhaps a paracord wrap too. I'm planning on doing the same thing; the local shop has new carbine tubes in stock for only ~$45...


Whatever suits your sense of unease, I guess.

I put a standard carbine tube on mine because it'll be going back and forth from pistol to two different rifle uppers, which will be all in same bag, so the last thing I'd want to do is cripple it for the included stock.

- OS

Overton-AR
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Posted: 1/1/2013 10:41:51 PM
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
I'd wager a little bit of silicone in the bottom part would go a long way, or perhaps a paracord wrap too. I'm planning on doing the same thing; the local shop has new carbine tubes in stock for only ~$45...


Whatever suits your sense of unease, I guess.

I put a standard carbine tube on mine because it'll be going back and forth from pistol to two different rifle uppers, which will be all in same bag, so the last thing I'd want to do is cripple it for the included stock.

- OS




I may be wrong but I was informed that doing this is a "NO-NO". If the lower has
ever been assembled as a rifle, it is no longer eligible to be used as a "Pistol"
lower. Most likely you will never get caught....but thats no the point.
Tony-Ri
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Posted: 1/1/2013 10:58:17 PM
Originally Posted By Overton-AR:
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
I'd wager a little bit of silicone in the bottom part would go a long way, or perhaps a paracord wrap too. I'm planning on doing the same thing; the local shop has new carbine tubes in stock for only ~$45...


Whatever suits your sense of unease, I guess.

I put a standard carbine tube on mine because it'll be going back and forth from pistol to two different rifle uppers, which will be all in same bag, so the last thing I'd want to do is cripple it for the included stock.

- OS




I may be wrong but I was informed that doing this is a "NO-NO". If the lower has
ever been assembled as a rifle, it is no longer eligible to be used as a "Pistol"
lower. Most likely you will never get caught....but thats no the point.


As long as it was a pistol first, and never is assembled into an SBR then it is alright. Same thing as the rifle uppers for handguns.
Home schooling doesn't make you socially inept, it just makes you awesome enough to do shit people remember centuries later. ~ Frost7

Go Hokies!
Overton-AR
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Posted: 1/2/2013 12:21:26 AM
Thanks for clearing that up.....I thought the "once a rifle, always a rifle" was still in effect.
After a google search, I see the ATF changed that ruling back in 2011. Thats very good
to know. Thanks.
zero88
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Posted: 1/2/2013 12:24:35 AM
Just wrap it up in paracord nice and tight IMO

Or you could even put some kind of clamp on the rear of the tube so that a stock can't slide over it.
OhShoot
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Posted: 1/2/2013 3:16:42 AM
[Last Edit: 1/2/2013 3:21:50 AM by OhShoot]
Originally Posted By zero88:
Just wrap it up in paracord nice and tight IMO

Or you could even put some kind of clamp on the rear of the tube so that a stock can't slide over it.


Again, suit yourself, but there's zero legal reason to do that.

It won't protect you if you have a stock with you that serves no other useful purpose but to use it with that pistol. Like you couldn't unwrap the paracord, or remove the clamp and use the stock?

Even a permanently crippled carbine buffer or a pistol buffer is no sure-fire defense. A stock can be braced or taped to the pistol. There's nothing that mandates some exact way it must be attached to be in violation.

In either scenario, you would still have a proximity of parts that could be seen as having no useful purpose other than to make a NFA firearm if push came to shove.

The defense is simply to not have a stock with you unless you have other hardware also with you for which the stock has a legal useful purpose.

- OS
weaponeer1911
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Posted: 1/2/2013 10:30:30 PM
I am right now building my first pistol lower from a DS Arms stripped lower. I plan to put an old Bushmaster commercial diameter carbine buffer tube, spring and buffer on it. I will give my son the old carbine stock that fits it and have him keep it at his house. All my other rifle lowers all use the mil-spec diameter buffer tubes. The stocks for these should not fit on the commercial tube, so I should be good to go. I will never have in my possesion a stock that will fit over my commercial tube. If I convert it back to a rifle, or eventually go SBR with it, I'll switch back to a mil-spec tube.

If you have an old commercial carbine tube around that might work for you.
sleepdr
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Posted: 1/3/2013 2:48:26 PM
Originally Posted By Tony-Ri:
I'd wager a little bit of silicone in the bottom part would go a long way, or perhaps a paracord wrap too. I'm planning on doing the same thing; the local shop has new carbine tubes in stock for only ~$45...


I went with JB Weld to fill the bottom channel, followed by successive Plasti-Dip sessions. It built a thick layer on the rear end that tapers to bare metal at the front (no interference with the CH). Overkill? Maybe, but it absolutely cannot readily accept a buttstock.
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OhShoot
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Posted: 1/3/2013 6:18:56 PM
[Last Edit: 1/3/2013 6:19:41 PM by OhShoot]
Originally Posted By sleepdr:
....
I went with JB Weld to fill the bottom channel, followed by successive Plasti-Dip sessions. It built a thick layer on the rear end that tapers to bare metal at the front (no interference with the CH). Overkill? Maybe, but it absolutely cannot readily accept a buttstock.


"Readily" is not part of the test.

The test is whether the stock could be used in a legal non-NFA config within the parts in proximity.

You're out at the range with:



All good.

Without the rifle upper: Danger




Or you're out at the range with:



Assuming the lower was originally first configured as a pistol, all good.

Without the rifle upper: Danger.

- OS






sleepdr
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Posted: 1/3/2013 6:46:09 PM
Originally Posted By OhShoot:
Originally Posted By sleepdr:
....
I went with JB Weld to fill the bottom channel, followed by successive Plasti-Dip sessions. It built a thick layer on the rear end that tapers to bare metal at the front (no interference with the CH). Overkill? Maybe, but it absolutely cannot readily accept a buttstock.


"Readily" is not part of the test.

The test is whether the stock could be used in a legal non-NFA config within the parts in proximity.

You're out at the range with:

http://routedriver.home.comcast.net/pub/misc/Pistol-Rifle/neos.jpg

All good.

Without the rifle upper: Danger




Or you're out at the range with:

http://routedriver.home.comcast.net/pub/misc/Pistol-Rifle/arpistolrifle2.jpg

Assuming the lower was originally first configured as a pistol, all good.

Without the rifle upper: Danger.

- OS








That is the formal definition, and I know I could have legally left the carbine tube alone. It's also clear that even many LEO/ATF folks aren't completely on the same page with respect to understanding the nuances. I went with a solution that can't even be mistaken for an unregistered SBR.
Like fine herbs, dreams only develop their full fragrance when crushed and ground into a fine powder.
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Coyotehawk
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Posted: 1/5/2013 5:30:41 PM
[Last Edit: 1/5/2013 8:04:14 PM by Coyotehawk]
Originally Posted By Overton-AR:
Thanks for clearing that up.....I thought the "once a rifle, always a rifle" was still in effect.


That depends. If someone purchased a built rifle, or even just a complete lower with a rifle stock, then that specific lower CANNOT be used for a pistol build. When you purchase a stripped lower, it is transferred to you, through your FFL, as "other". These are the lowers that you can switch back and forth between rifle and pistol.

ETA: my above statement has been proven incorrect. Thanks to those who straightened me out.
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OhShoot
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Posted: 1/5/2013 5:48:00 PM
[Last Edit: 1/5/2013 5:50:30 PM by OhShoot]
Originally Posted By Coyotehawk:
Originally Posted By Overton-AR:
Thanks for clearing that up.....I thought the "once a rifle, always a rifle" was still in effect.


That depends. If someone purchased a built rifle, or even just a complete lower with a rifle stock, then that specific lower CANNOT be used for a pistol build. When you purchase a stripped lower, it is transferred to you, through your FFL, as "other". These are the lowers that you can switch back and forth between rifle and pistol.


You said that in this thread also:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/595821_Legality_question.html

But I don't think it's correct. See my response there.

The fact that rifle stock is attached to an AR lower at the time of purchase is no different than buying a rifle stock separately. What determines the classification is the upper, or lack of it.

- OS

Tony-Ri
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Posted: 1/5/2013 5:49:14 PM
Originally Posted By Coyotehawk:
Originally Posted By Overton-AR:
Thanks for clearing that up.....I thought the "once a rifle, always a rifle" was still in effect.


That depends. If someone purchased a built rifle, or even just a complete lower with a rifle stock, then that specific lower CANNOT be used for a pistol build. When you purchase a stripped lower, it is transferred to you, through your FFL, as "other". These are the lowers that you can switch back and forth between rifle and pistol.


Actually you can use a complete lower half sold with a stock as long as it has not been assembled into a complete rifle. It's in the ATF clarification letters posted in the tacked thread.
Home schooling doesn't make you socially inept, it just makes you awesome enough to do shit people remember centuries later. ~ Frost7

Go Hokies!
brodband8
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Posted: 1/22/2013 5:18:32 AM
While we are on this subject, how is the ruling on using a magpul UBR with the buttstock portion removed and stored at grandmas house for use on an AR pistol?

It should be no different than a mil spec tube being on a pistol right?
OhShoot
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Posted: 1/22/2013 6:42:56 AM
[Last Edit: 1/22/2013 6:45:58 AM by OhShoot]
Originally Posted By brodband8:
While we are on this subject, how is the ruling on using a magpul UBR with the buttstock portion removed and stored at grandmas house for use on an AR pistol?

It should be no different than a mil spec tube being on a pistol right?


There is no kind of buffer tube that's illegal on an AR pistol as long as it doesn't have something on it the BATF defines as a stock.

That stock only fits on that particular receiver extension as I understand it. Even so, assuming you have a legal use for the entire UBR assembly on something else you own, you'd be in compliance with the "constructive" ruling. Even if you have another AR with entire UBR on it, an extra stock is still okay just like any other spare part.

Just don't have that spare stock out and about with only your pistol config, of course. Advise the same for any stock and an AR pistol, even if the stock doesn't technically fit on it.

- OS