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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Engraving really required? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/20/2013 8:21:49 AM EDT
| So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? |
Whether you want to or not does not matter.
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Yes, it's required. Any gun manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002 must have manufacturer information placed at a minimum depth of .003” with a height no smaller than 1/16”. This information must be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or otherwise conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel. Required information on an SBR is the model (if such designation has been made), caliber or gauge, and the manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation). Also for a domestically made (SBR) the city and state (or recognized abbreviation), where you as the manufacturer made the firearm. |
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Yes, it's required. Any gun manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002 must have manufacturer information placed at a minimum depth of .003” with a height no smaller than 1/16”. This information must be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or otherwise conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel. Required information on an SBR is the model (if such designation has been made), caliber or gauge, and the manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation). Also for a domestically made (SBR) the city and state (or recognized abbreviation), where you as the manufacturer made the firearm. Only the serial number has a height and depth requirement (see blue part below). Makers info only has a depth requirement (see red part below). Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms § 479.102 How must firearms be identified? (a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows: (1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and (2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (i) The model, if such designation has been made; (ii) The caliber or gauge; (iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker; (iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and (v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134. (b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges. The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases). (c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part. (d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or impracticable. (e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section. (f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section. (2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part. |
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? If you really have a form 1 pending, then you would know this is a requirement. I highly doubt you have a form 1 pending, otherwise you would know not to ask such a stupid question. |
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? If you really have a form 1 pending, then you would know this is a requirement. I highly doubt you have a form 1 pending, otherwise you would know not to ask such a stupid question. That's not necessarily true. When I did my first SBR in 07, I didn't realize it NEEDED to be engraved. Only after I started really reading up on the subject did I realize it was a requirement and had it done. |
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? If you really have a form 1 pending, then you would know this is a requirement. I highly doubt you have a form 1 pending, otherwise you would know not to ask such a stupid question. No questions are stupid, some people have a vague understanding of the law or it's requirements. And don't comprehend the honor system. As most members have already replied the importance of following the law. Your join date is a year old so I’m sure you will have a question one day and want it answered without someone chastising you. 
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| I used to think if you form 1 a title 1 gun, you didn't have to engrave it since a previous mfg already got the info engraved and you used their info on the form 1. I don't see why we should engrave it on there. How would ATF identify the firearm if there's like 4-5 mfg info engraved on the gun? How is that for tracking purposes? You have 4-5 different mfg engrave, how do you determine who has current possession? If the gun pops up in a crime, how do ATf determine who did the crime if there's 5 different maker/mfg engraved on there... |
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I used to think if you form 1 a title 1 gun, you didn't have to engrave it since a previous mfg already got the info engraved and you used their info on the form 1. I don't see why we should engrave it on there. How would ATF identify the firearm if there's like 4-5 mfg info engraved on the gun? How is that for tracking purposes? You have 4-5 different mfg engrave, how do you determine who has current possession? If the gun pops up in a crime, how do ATf determine who did the crime if there's 5 different maker/mfg engraved on there... It's simple. Form 1, you are the manufacturer, the lower has a serial number and the brand but YOU are making it an SBR which belongs to the trust, since you are the trustee it has to have YOUR information engraved on it. Which includes name of trust, revocable living trust ,city and state. If its a Form 4, it is leaving the manufacturer as an SBR and in his book as an SBR, it already has his name on it and will go to a class three dealer who will also receive you form 4 when it has a stamp. This SBR already has the makers name on it, no more information is needed. |
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I used to think if you form 1 a title 1 gun, you didn't have to engrave it since a previous mfg already got the info engraved and you used their info on the form 1. I don't see why we should engrave it on there. How would ATF identify the firearm if there's like 4-5 mfg info engraved on the gun? How is that for tracking purposes? You have 4-5 different mfg engrave, how do you determine who has current possession? If the gun pops up in a crime, how do ATf determine who did the crime if there's 5 different maker/mfg engraved on there... There wouldn't be "4-5 mfg info engraved on the gun". There would be the Manufacturer of the original title 1 gun and the Maker of the title 2 gun. Why would there be any others? Any subsequent transfers would be on a Form 4 and would not require any engraving. Also, the term "manufacturer" refers to a licensed manufacturerer of NFA weapons (an 07/02 FFL/SOT). they would make an SBR and then register it on a Form 2. The term "maker" refers to an unlicensed person who is applying to make an SBR on a Form 1. |
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Actually, it is a stupid question. He said he knows the laws, he just doesn't want to do follow them. If he knows he has to, but is too lazy or cheap to, then it's a stupid fucking question. The OP asked if he had to, he never mentioned knowing that he had to. I'd call that a legitimate question and one that does come up somewhat regularly. Back on topic... I guess a person could legally change their name to Colt, DMPS, Spikes Tactical, etc and not have to engrave anything at all. 
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Actually, it is a stupid question. He said he knows the laws, he just doesn't want to do follow them. If he knows he has to, but is too lazy or cheap to, then it's a stupid fucking question. The OP asked if he had to, he never mentioned knowing that he had to. I'd call that a legitimate question and one that does come up somewhat regularly. Back on topic... I guess a person could legally change their name to Colt, DMPS, Spikes Tactical, etc and not have to engrave anything at all. They would also need to be located in the same city and state as the original manufacturer also. 
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I used to think if you form 1 a title 1 gun, you didn't have to engrave it since a previous mfg already got the info engraved and you used their info on the form 1. I don't see why we should engrave it on there. How would ATF identify the firearm if there's like 4-5 mfg info engraved on the gun? How is that for tracking purposes? You have 4-5 different mfg engrave, how do you determine who has current possession? If the gun pops up in a crime, how do ATf determine who did the crime if there's 5 different maker/mfg engraved on there... Ever seen a gun that was manufactured out of the country and then imported? Two sets of engraving and/or stamps are present for the same reason. Take that type of weapon and sbr it then you have 3 sets of info. The BATFE know the game and are fully aware of how to translate the markings and find what they need to know. Also the serial number never changes so the tracking isn't as hard as it sounds. |
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I've always wondered if people have ever been charged for not having the engraving. I seriously doubt anyone has ever been prosecuted for simply not engraving. Worst case is ATF would make you get it engraved or take it from you and engrave it themseleves with a crappy electro-pencil job. |
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I've always wondered if people have ever been charged for not having the engraving. I seriously doubt anyone has ever been prosecuted for simply not engraving. Worst case is ATF would make you get it engraved or take it from you and engrave it themseleves with a crappy electro-pencil job. The electro pencil engraving is what I have heard of, no personal experience though. Also be prepared to have them take your weapon and hold onto (aka bounce around in the trunk and local holding tank) your rifle until they can figure out the legality and status. I don't know about you, but in my experience, no one treats my weapons better than me. |
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I used to think if you form 1 a title 1 gun, you didn't have to engrave it since a previous mfg already got the info engraved and you used their info on the form 1. I don't see why we should engrave it on there. How would ATF identify the firearm if there's like 4-5 mfg info engraved on the gun? How is that for tracking purposes? You have 4-5 different mfg engrave, how do you determine who has current possession? If the gun pops up in a crime, how do ATf determine who did the crime if there's 5 different maker/mfg engraved on there... There wouldn't be "4-5 mfg info engraved on the gun". There would be the Manufacturer of the original title 1 gun and the Maker of the title 2 gun. Why would there be any others? Any subsequent transfers would be on a Form 4 and would not require any engraving. Also, the term "manufacturer" refers to a licensed manufacturerer of NFA weapons (an 07/02 FFL/SOT). they would make an SBR and then register it on a Form 2. The term "maker" refers to an unlicensed person who is applying to make an SBR on a Form 1. Well, I know some people who would buy the lower by itself and form 1 it the way they like. Also by doing it like that, they have possession of it while its pending rather than waiting form 4. Instead of waiting and not have anything to shoot on form 4, they rather just buy it non-NFA then form 1 it again and have something to shoot while they wait, stamp gets approved and they slap on the short upper and be on their way. |
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I used to think if you form 1 a title 1 gun, you didn't have to engrave it since a previous mfg already got the info engraved and you used their info on the form 1. I don't see why we should engrave it on there. How would ATF identify the firearm if there's like 4-5 mfg info engraved on the gun? How is that for tracking purposes? You have 4-5 different mfg engrave, how do you determine who has current possession? If the gun pops up in a crime, how do ATf determine who did the crime if there's 5 different maker/mfg engraved on there... Ever seen a gun that was manufactured out of the country and then imported? Two sets of engraving and/or stamps are present for the same reason. Take that type of weapon and sbr it then you have 3 sets of info. The BATFE know the game and are fully aware of how to translate the markings and find what they need to know. Also the serial number never changes so the tracking isn't as hard as it sounds. Exactly, if its not that hard, then why make such stupid ruling? Only one person has possession of it and ATF knows who has current possession. |
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I've always wondered if people have ever been charged for not having the engraving. Chances are NEVER unless you're a dumbass who did something illegal with your NFA item. If thats the case, you're catching more than just a engraving job. Other than that, you'll never get questioned. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Actually, it is a stupid question. He said he knows the laws, he just doesn't want to do follow them. If he knows he has to, but is too lazy or cheap to, then it's a stupid fucking question. The OP asked if he had to, he never mentioned knowing that he had to. I'd call that a legitimate question and one that does come up somewhat regularly. Back on topic... I guess a person could legally change their name to Colt, DMPS, Spikes Tactical, etc and not have to engrave anything at all. They would also need to be located in the same city and state as the original manufacturer also. The address is where the gun was made, not where you live. (iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and There was a guy on here a few weeks ago who did not want to engrave "Philadelphia, PA". Maybe he will drive to "Darby, PA" to make it.
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit.
Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit. Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in Officials are more giving for some stuff that really don't matter. Sure it's the ruling but I doubt they care unless like I mentioned, you're being asked because you were being a jackass with your weapon. If you were just shooting in the back yard minding your own business and ATF happened to be in the area and heard shots. I doubt they would care about engraving. I bet you they would look at the form 1 and match it up with your gun serial. Serial and model is the most important thing in tracking the gun. |
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit. Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in I had the same exact experience with the ATF guys here. When asking about engraving, they had no idea additional engraving was required. |
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? I chopped the bbl on an Uzi and remmy 870 I emailed ATF and they told me I don't have to engrave. I've since seen otherwise |
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? I chopped the bbl on an Uzi and remmy 870 I emailed ATF and they told me I don't have to engrave. I've since seen otherwise Quoted:
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit. Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in I had the same exact experience with the ATF guys here. When asking about engraving, they had no idea additional engraving was required. Thats what I'm saying. Its the ruling but I doubt they care. ATF knows who has current possession and even records of previous owners. YOu ain't getting away with murder if you don't engrave it. No harm, no foul! |
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? I chopped the bbl on an Uzi and remmy 870 I emailed ATF and they told me I don't have to engrave. I've since seen otherwise Quoted:
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit. Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in I had the same exact experience with the ATF guys here. When asking about engraving, they had no idea additional engraving was required. Thats what I'm saying. Its the ruling but I doubt they care. ATF knows who has current possession and even records of previous owners. YOu ain't getting away with murder if you don't engrave it. No harm, no foul! Just because some BATFE agents are ignorant of the law does not give you the excuse to be. |
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On the same note ive had an LEO tell me it was illegal to engrave your firearm. Im from a decent size city. This cop knows nfa. He works weekends at a class 3 dealer and owns machineguns, sbrs, suppressors.
Im just saying nfa laws are so complex that no one can keep it straight. But yes technically your suppose to engrave |
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? I chopped the bbl on an Uzi and remmy 870 I emailed ATF and they told me I don't have to engrave. I've since seen otherwise Quoted:
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit. Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in I had the same exact experience with the ATF guys here. When asking about engraving, they had no idea additional engraving was required. Thats what I'm saying. Its the ruling but I doubt they care. ATF knows who has current possession and even records of previous owners. YOu ain't getting away with murder if you don't engrave it. No harm, no foul! You keep taking about possession and engraving. You do realize that only the maker of the SBR has to engrave his info when he files a Form 1 to make an SBR. All subsequent transfers are on a Form 4 and do not require any more engraving. The engraving only shows who made the SBR, not who currently possess it. |
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Since when does a LEO's opinion of law matter? And why on earth would you ask legal advise of a LEO? The law is the law, and the legal requirement is there. The consequences are also spelled out in the law. If you choose not to obey, you just have to be able to live with the consequences of that choice. LEOs always have the opportunity to give you a pass, or a warning; BUT they don't have to
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? I chopped the bbl on an Uzi and remmy 870 I emailed ATF and they told me I don't have to engrave. I've since seen otherwise Quoted:
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit. Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in I had the same exact experience with the ATF guys here. When asking about engraving, they had no idea additional engraving was required. Thats what I'm saying. Its the ruling but I doubt they care. ATF knows who has current possession and even records of previous owners. YOu ain't getting away with murder if you don't engrave it. No harm, no foul! You keep taking about possession and engraving. You do realize that only the maker of the SBR has to engrave his info when he files a Form 1 to make an SBR. All subsequent transfers are on a Form 4 and do not require any more engraving. The engraving only shows who made the SBR, not who currently possess it. Exactly, so why do they need to engrave on a previous title 1 that been made into title 2? Ok lets say this, I form 1 my title 1, I engrave my info, I then turn around and sell it to someone else and they decide to form 1. So that means they would have to engrave their info on top of mine and the original title 1, leaving 3 different makers on the rifle. Why would they want that? Yes theres people who sell their SBR as title 1 to avoid the form 4 waiting, they rather have a rifle while they wait for form 1. Whats the main purpose of that? If a person form 1 a title 1, they use ALL OF THE TITLE 1 INFORMATION on the form 1. I am sure the ATF can track the gun with model and serial of the gun. So if its not for tracking purposes, then what is it? |
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Quoted: Exactly, so why do they need to engrave on a previous title 1 that been made into title 2? Ok lets say this, I form 1 my title 1, I engrave my info, I then turn around and sell it to someone else and they decide to form 1. So that means they would have to engrave their info on top of mine and the original title 1, leaving 3 different makers on the rifle. Why would they want that? Yes theres people who sell their SBR as title 1 to avoid the form 4 waiting, they rather have a rifle while they wait for form 1. Whats the main purpose of that? If a person form 1 a title 1, they use ALL OF THE TITLE 1 INFORMATION on the form 1. I am sure the ATF can track the gun with model and serial of the gun. So if its not for tracking purposes, then what is it? |
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? I chopped the bbl on an Uzi and remmy 870 I emailed ATF and they told me I don't have to engrave. I've since seen otherwise Quoted:
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit. Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in I had the same exact experience with the ATF guys here. When asking about engraving, they had no idea additional engraving was required. Thats what I'm saying. Its the ruling but I doubt they care. ATF knows who has current possession and even records of previous owners. YOu ain't getting away with murder if you don't engrave it. No harm, no foul! You keep taking about possession and engraving. You do realize that only the maker of the SBR has to engrave his info when he files a Form 1 to make an SBR. All subsequent transfers are on a Form 4 and do not require any more engraving. The engraving only shows who made the SBR, not who currently possess it. Exactly, so why do they need to engrave on a previous title 1 that been made into title 2? Ok lets say this, I form 1 my title 1, I engrave my info, I then turn around and sell it to someone else and they decide to form 1. So that means they would have to engrave their info on top of mine and the original title 1, leaving 3 different makers on the rifle. Why would they want that? Yes theres people who sell their SBR as title 1 to avoid the form 4 waiting, they rather have a rifle while they wait for form 1. Whats the main purpose of that? If a person form 1 a title 1, they use ALL OF THE TITLE 1 INFORMATION on the form 1. I am sure the ATF can track the gun with model and serial of the gun. So if its not for tracking purposes, then what is it? It would transfer to them on a Form 4 and no engraving is required, there would be no Form 1 for a rifle thats already been SBRed. |
| TonyK. May I ask you something? I read somewhere on another forum and the subject of "engraving spots" came up. Of course, ATF wants you to engrave in a spot that is wholly unobstructed from view. That brings up the question, how does SEARS can be engraved and be hidden from view? If SEARS can be engraved and sit inside the lower and be hidden from view, can't we do the same for SBR engravings? Engrave it where it requires to remove something to see it. Say a person engraves on the barrel and the handguard hides it, wouldn't that be legal? |
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TonyK. May I ask you something? I read somewhere on another forum and the subject of "engraving spots" came up. Of course, ATF wants you to engrave in a spot that is wholly unobstructed from view. That brings up the question, how does SEARS can be engraved and be hidden from view? If SEARS can be engraved and sit inside the lower and be hidden from view, can't we do the same for SBR engravings? Engrave it where it requires to remove something to see it. Say a person engraves on the barrel and the handguard hides it, wouldn't that be legal? Prior to Jan. 30, 2002, ATF had no regulations regarding engraving, except that NFA items had to be engraved somehow, somewhere. This is why, for instance, many AR15 registered-receiver conversions were engraved on the receiver tang under the pistol grip. There was no size, depth or visibility requirement, and engravings were commonly done with a vibrapen. Effective Jan. 30, 2002, under ATF Ruling 2002-6 (incorporated in federal law as 27 CFR 479 102) the regs changed, requiring the marking "be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm(, which) means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view." The new regs also set size and depth minimums. Since all transferable MGs were made prior to the May 19, 1986 cutoff, they fell under the old rules. But if you make/register an NFA item today, it is governed by the current (post-2002) rules. All of this information is available in ATF's NFA Handbook, available here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/index.html |
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TonyK. May I ask you something? I read somewhere on another forum and the subject of "engraving spots" came up. Of course, ATF wants you to engrave in a spot that is wholly unobstructed from view. That brings up the question, how does SEARS can be engraved and be hidden from view? If SEARS can be engraved and sit inside the lower and be hidden from view, can't we do the same for SBR engravings? Engrave it where it requires to remove something to see it. Say a person engraves on the barrel and the handguard hides it, wouldn't that be legal? Prior to Jan. 30, 2002, ATF had no regulations regarding engraving, except that NFA items had to be engraved somehow, somewhere. This is why, for instance, many AR15 registered-receiver conversions were engraved on the receiver tang under the pistol grip. There was no size, depth or visibility requirement, and engravings were commonly done with a vibrapen. Effective Jan. 30, 2002, under ATF Ruling 2002-6 (incorporated in federal law as 27 CFR 479 102) the regs changed, requiring the marking "be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm(, which) means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view." The new regs also set size and depth minimums. Since all transferable MGs were made prior to the May 19, 1986 cutoff, they fell under the old rules. But if you make/register an NFA item today, it is governed by the current (post-2002) rules. All of this information is available in ATF's NFA Handbook, available here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/index.html I think there is only a location ("conspicuous") and a depth requirement for NFA engraving. I do not think there is a size requirement. The serial number has a size requirement, but that is different from NFA engraving requirements. ETA for speling error correction. |
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TonyK. May I ask you something? I read somewhere on another forum and the subject of "engraving spots" came up. Of course, ATF wants you to engrave in a spot that is wholly unobstructed from view. That brings up the question, how does SEARS can be engraved and be hidden from view? If SEARS can be engraved and sit inside the lower and be hidden from view, can't we do the same for SBR engravings? Engrave it where it requires to remove something to see it. Say a person engraves on the barrel and the handguard hides it, wouldn't that be legal? Prior to Jan. 30, 2002, ATF had no regulations regarding engraving, except that NFA items had to be engraved somehow, somewhere. This is why, for instance, many AR15 registered-receiver conversions were engraved on the receiver tang under the pistol grip. There was no size, depth or visibility requirement, and engravings were commonly done with a vibrapen. Effective Jan. 30, 2002, under ATF Ruling 2002-6 (incorporated in federal law as 27 CFR 479 102) the regs changed, requiring the marking "be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm(, which) means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view." The new regs also set size and depth minimums. Since all transferable MGs were made prior to the May 19, 1986 cutoff, they fell under the old rules. But if you make/register an NFA item today, it is governed by the current (post-2002) rules. All of this information is available in ATF's NFA Handbook, available here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/nfa-handbook/index.html I think there is only a location ("conspicuous") and a depth requirement for NFA engraving. I do not think there is a size requirement. The serial number has a size requirement, but that is different from NFA engraving requirements. ETA for speling error correction. The markings requirements take up several pages in the NFA Handbook (Section 7.4) as well as a long section in the cited Code of Federal Regulations. Yes, the regs apply differently to SNs vs. makers' marks. That's a whole thread unto itself. However, I was answering Starcraftmlg's question about why transferable MGs could be marked in a way that current production NFA cannot. The answer remains, because they were made and registered before the regulations changed in 2002. |
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Yes it must be done like everyone has said. It must be 1/16 high and .003 deep. It must be written out in full as it is on the F1. There is no size requirement for NFA engraving. The size requirement is for the serial number only. This is a common misconception. Edit to add: The depth requirement is correct. |
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I've always wondered if people have ever been charged for not having the engraving. I wasn't about to take that chance when I got my SBR. But then, I'm a law-abiding pussy. I know of two instances where ATF noticed that an NFA item had not been engraved. Both happened at MG shoots prior to the 2002 reg change. Both were transferable MGs that had been Form 1'd by individuals prior to May 19, 1986. In the first case, they discussed it with the owner and explained that engraving was required. They filled out a report, gave him a copy, and asked him to get it engraved within the next 60 days and send them photographic proof that he had complied. He did so, and never heard a word back. In the second case, the owner loudly challenged the "marking" requirement, saying it did not apply to his Form 1 since he was not a manufacturer. ATF said it did apply, told him they would fix it, and seized the MG, giving him a receipt. It was returned to him -- six months later -- after someone at NFA Branch scrawled his name/city/state with a vibrapen, free-hand, in half-inch-high letters across the side of the receiver. AFAIK, no one has ever been changed with a crime for failing to mark an NFA item. Though the vibrapen-across-the-transferable MG might qualify as a crime, at least aesthetically. 
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So I've got my form1 pending right now for my first SBR. What is the legal requirements for engraving? I'd really rather not do at all honestly. Is this even an option? I chopped the bbl on an Uzi and remmy 870 I emailed ATF and they told me I don't have to engrave. I've since seen otherwise Quoted:
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Ive had our local ATF field agent look at me funny when I asked about engraving a SBR on a form 1. He told me not that he was aware of and he didn't care as long as the form 1 was legit. Dude they cant even keep their shit straight. But technically your suppose to engrave it. I dremeled mine in I had the same exact experience with the ATF guys here. When asking about engraving, they had no idea additional engraving was required. Thats what I'm saying. Its the ruling but I doubt they care. ATF knows who has current possession and even records of previous owners. YOu ain't getting away with murder if you don't engrave it. No harm, no foul! Just because some BATFE agents are ignorant of the law does not give you the excuse to be. I thought engraving was a regulation, not a law. It's been awhile since I looked it up. |
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I thought engraving was a regulation, not a law. It's been awhile since I looked it up. Federal law consists of three components: The U.S.Constitution, the United States Code (USC), and the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). Engraving is listed in federal law under 27 CFR 479 102. It is a regulation which is part of federal law, and failure to comply is a federal felony carrying federal prison time if convicted. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Engraving really required? (Page 1 of 2)
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