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1/11/2013 10:32:28 PM EDT
Thinking about doing a 14.5" pinned to 16" for my next build.  As everyone knows with the current madness when a part you want comes up you have to jump and there is the distinct possibility of waiting months for the rest of the parts to complete the gun.  Since I have to have the barrel nut and gas block in place prior to permanently attaching the muzzle device I may have the barrel laying around for a while before I can get the rest of the parts.  Here's the question, I know if I have a loose upper and  another AR the constructive possession SBR bullshit kicks in, but what if the only other upper is complete and on the other rifle?



ETA: I do not plan on making an NFA weapon, only a light weight, no frills SHTF type build.  My barrel choice will be based strictly on aesthetics.  If I decide to go the 14.5" route it will get a muzzle device pinned and and welded so it exceeds 16.1".
1/12/2013 7:18:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Thinking about doing a 14.5" pinned to 16" for my next build.  As everyone knows with the current madness when a part you want comes up you have to jump and there is the distinct possibility of waiting months for the rest of the parts to complete the gun.  Since I have to have the barrel nut and gas block in place prior to permanently attaching the muzzle device I may have the barrel laying around for a while before I can get the rest of the parts.  Here's the question, I know if I have a loose upper and  another AR the constructive intent SBR bullshit kicks in, but what if the only other upper is complete and on the other rifle?


You need a "legal" use for all the parts that you possess.

Without a registered lower or a pistol lower your <16 inch upper would be in violation.

I'm confused.  Do you have a stripped lower at this time?  Can you temporarily make it a pistol lower?  I'm not familiar with LA laws.

ETA it's not constructive intent, it's constructive possession, but that is the legal theory.  The charge will simply be "possession."

1/12/2013 9:09:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Just keep the shorty barrel at a friend's house.  Don't possess the barrel unless you have a registered lower or pistol lower.  Use common sense, ie if the only logical conclusion a normal person could arrive at is that you intend to make a SBR but don't have a registered lower...you can figure out the rest.
1/12/2013 11:23:06 AM EDT
[#3]
Reciently, some BATF agents were at the department I work for. When asked about "constructive intent" as several of us are "gun guys" they had no idea what the hell we were talking about. I had to laugh as ARFCOM is so hung up on it yet the actual agents had no earthly idea what it was.
1/12/2013 11:27:09 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Just keep the shorty barrel at a friend's house.  Don't possess the barrel unless you have a registered lower or pistol lower.  Use common sense, ie if the only logical conclusion a normal person could arrive at is that you intend to make a SBR but don't have a registered lower...you can figure out the rest.


Couple things here:

As stated above, it's Constructive Possession. There 's no "intent" component so what your true intentions might be us completely irrelevant and will not mitigate the condition, or the resultant criminal complaint.

Secondly, while I'm aware that leaving at a friend or relatives house is commonly done, the operative term to whether or not the CP condition exists is not possession of the NFA-qualifying part, but "control" of it. Leaving at your friends house has not been tested in court and really shouldn't be considered a legal safe alternative to just having no association to that part until a clear, legal pathway is established.

Do you own the part? Is it your property?  Is there a reasonable expectation that your friend would return that part to you upon request? These are the types of questions that could establish that "control" is still present here.

Best to not to acquire the part at all until you have a legal means to use it, either pistol or registered and compatible NFA firearm.
1/12/2013 1:34:46 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm not a lawyer.

I have an SBR lower so I can have all the short barrels I want.

In this gun part climate, IF you could find your barrel, it would serve the greater good of your build to acquire it and hide it. I seem to remember someone posting during the days of yore and abundent AR parts that they called the ATF regarding this. The agent said something like If you have all your parts for the upper and had to wait around for a week or so to locate a guy who could drill, pin, and weld it that is acceptable. It would behoove you to have all that worked out so as soon as your barrel comes in the mail you can take it right to the weld shop. I wouldn't advertise if you had a barrel on the south side of 16" until it was on a complete and pinned upper.

Riddle me this: How can one own ANY title 1 rifle or shotgun and a hacksaw? Crude as it may be, that is an instant SBR kit. Changing an AR barrel requires special tools and knowledge to do it, a hacksaw can be operated by any primate with opposable thumbs.
1/12/2013 4:08:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
I'm not a lawyer.

I have an SBR lower so I can have all the short barrels I want.

In this gun part climate, IF you could find your barrel, it would serve the greater good of your build to acquire it and hide it. I seem to remember someone posting during the days of yore and abundent AR parts that they called the ATF regarding this. The agent said something like If you have all your parts for the upper and had to wait around for a week or so to locate a guy who could drill, pin, and weld it that is acceptable. It would behoove you to have all that worked out so as soon as your barrel comes in the mail you can take it right to the weld shop. I wouldn't advertise if you had a barrel on the south side of 16" until it was on a complete and pinned upper.

Riddle me this: How can one own ANY title 1 rifle or shotgun and a hacksaw? Crude as it may be, that is an instant SBR kit. Changing an AR barrel requires special tools and knowledge to do it, a hacksaw can be operated by any primate with opposable thumbs.


You're absolutely right, you're not a lawyer....
1/12/2013 5:19:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Judging by some of the responses I wasn't clear enough in my OP.  I do not plan on making an NFA weapon, only a light weight, no frills SHTF type build.  I haven't decided if I'm going 16" or 14.5 pinned to over 16" for the barrel.  My barrel choice will be based strictly on aesthetics.  If I decide to go the 14.5" route it will get a muzzle device pinned and and welded so it exceeds 16.1".  What I'm asking about here is the purchase of the 14.5" barrel, not the entire upper, or even the upper receiver.  Once I decide on the barrel and hand guard I will order them when ever I can find them in stock, and once I have the barrel, barrel nut, and gas block the muzzle device will be welded and pinned, making the barrel non NFA.  At this time I only have a stripped lower in bound, but I do have a complete, and functioning AR with a 20" barrel.  Normally I'd just buy everything and not worry about the short period of time I'd have the barrel less than 16.1", but with the current climate about guns in general, and the unknown delay for getting basic parts I want to cover my ass, hence this post.
1/12/2013 5:42:10 PM EDT
[#8]
If you have a a stripped lower, don't put a stock or rifle/carbine buffer tube on it until after you've had the barrel pinned and welded to >16" and you can possess the barrel. If you don't have a stripped lower, then have the barrel shipped to a friend or family member who doesn't own an AR or who has a registered SBR. If you're going to have a shop do the work, you might have the barrel shipped directly to them.

ETA: Pistol buffer tubes are cheap enough. That way you can test fire the barrel before welding it.
1/12/2013 6:41:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Judging by some of the responses I wasn't clear enough in my OP.  I do not plan on making an NFA weapon, only a light weight, no frills SHTF type build.  I haven't decided if I'm going 16" or 14.5 pinned to over 16" for the barrel.  My barrel choice will be based strictly on aesthetics.  If I decide to go the 14.5" route it will get a muzzle device pinned and and welded so it exceeds 16.1".  What I'm asking about here is the purchase of the 14.5" barrel, not the entire upper, or even the upper receiver.  Once I decide on the barrel and hand guard I will order them when ever I can find them in stock, and once I have the barrel, barrel nut, and gas block the muzzle device will be welded and pinned, making the barrel non NFA.  At this time I only have a stripped lower in bound, but I do have a complete, and functioning AR with a 20" barrel.  Normally I'd just buy everything and not worry about the short period of time I'd have the barrel less than 16.1", but with the current climate about guns in general, and the unknown delay for getting basic parts I want to cover my ass, hence this post.


Yep, that's what I understood when I wrote post number 2.  Now I'm confused...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  Without a pistol lower (or registered lower) the possession of a AR 15 type barrel <16 inches will get you a unregistered possession of an SBR charge.  You need a legal use for all the parts in your dominion and control.  You stated that you had a complete Title I AR-15 type rifle.  Without an appropriate lower, the only possible use you have for the <16 barrel is to assemble an unregistered SBR.

Of course, if ATF is in your house measuring your barrels, then THEY have a warrant and YOU have much bigger problems.

Just Sayin!



1/16/2013 10:31:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Just have the barrel shipped directly to the place that is going to pin it, like ADCO...  Just make sure they also have whatever gasblock and barrel nut you need too.
1/16/2013 1:27:09 PM EDT
[#11]
I dont understand how no one has asked the simple question of whether or not you have a lower reciever in your possession at all?

Do you have a stripped or built lower receiver as of now?
If you have neither you could build all the sbr uppers you wish. I don't condone this lol, but in this political climate this kinda makes sense(hard to get parts).

I also do not know LA's laws.  But if you can have pistols and you have a stripped lower, put a pistol buffer tube on it and build whatever you want for the upper.
If you already have a built lower with a rifle upper......this is the gray area.
Me personally, I would leave the lower receiver with my parents.  That way it is safe, and the as parts come in....no matter how long it takes, I'm only in possession of upper parts.  


Edit:  I know in your first post you mentioned another rifle, but I'm not sure if you are asking theoretically.  

1/16/2013 3:41:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I dont understand how no one has asked the simple question of whether or not you have a lower reciever in your possession at all?

Do you have a stripped or built lower receiver as of now?
If you have neither you could build all the sbr uppers you wish. I don't condone this lol, but in this political climate this kinda makes sense(hard to get parts).

I also do not know LA's laws.  But if you can have pistols and you have a stripped lower, put a pistol buffer tube on it and build whatever you want for the upper.
If you already have a built lower with a rifle upper......this is the gray area.
Me personally, I would leave the lower receiver with my parents.  That way it is safe, and the as parts come in....no matter how long it takes, I'm only in possession of upper parts.  


Edit:  I know in your first post you mentioned another rifle, but I'm not sure if you are asking theoretically.  




This route, while common, has not been tested in the courts.  The operative term is  in all case law is "control" not possession.  If the parts are in your control, then you could have a CP vulnerability.  Keeping key parts at a friend's or parent's house certainly removes possession, but not necessarily control.  Do you own the part? Would your friend return the part to you upon request? I'm not comfortable that these answers would play out in your favor, if it came to that.

It's also worth noting that a good number of CP NFA cases came out of accidental discovery, not due to an active investigation.


1/16/2013 3:43:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Reciently, some BATF agents were at the department I work for. When asked about "constructive intent" as several of us are "gun guys" they had no idea what the hell we were talking about. I had to laugh as ARFCOM is so hung up on it yet the actual agents had no earthly idea what it was.



You believed them?




1/17/2013 9:56:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I dont understand how no one has asked the simple question of whether or not you have a lower reciever in your possession at all?

Do you have a stripped or built lower receiver as of now?
If you have neither you could build all the sbr uppers you wish. I don't condone this lol, but in this political climate this kinda makes sense(hard to get parts).

I also do not know LA's laws.  But if you can have pistols and you have a stripped lower, put a pistol buffer tube on it and build whatever you want for the upper.
If you already have a built lower with a rifle upper......this is the gray area.
Me personally, I would leave the lower receiver with my parents.  That way it is safe, and the as parts come in....no matter how long it takes, I'm only in possession of upper parts.  


Edit:  I know in your first post you mentioned another rifle, but I'm not sure if you are asking theoretically.  




This route, while common, has not been tested in the courts.  The operative term is  in all case law is "control" not possession.  If the parts are in your control, then you could have a CP vulnerability.  Keeping key parts at a friend's or parent's house certainly removes possession, but not necessarily control.  Do you own the part? Would your friend return the part to you upon request? I'm not comfortable that these answers would play out in your favor, if it came to that.

It's also worth noting that a good number of CP NFA cases came out of accidental discovery, not due to an active investigation.





One would like to think that the ATF might use judgement from time to time.  Sure you purchased a particular part that could be construed in the constructive possession issue......but the part is not in your immediate possession AND you have a form 1 pending.  All indicators are that you are not going do something illegal like build the weapon prior to approval.  Anybodies guess though.
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