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Posted: 2/10/2012 5:12:36 PM EDT
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hope this is a good place for it
barrel length should be the shortest you plane on running right? overall length how should this be entered.. i have no idea what stock i am going to run... my guess is just measure muzzle to end of buffer tube and that should work right? |
| The length should be what the configuration is going to be when you build it. So if you are going to use a 10.5" put 10.5 for the barrel length. As to OAL it is with the stock extended measure to the end of the barrel without any detachable muzzle device. As far as using other length barrels, you can go as long or as short as you want, as long as you maintain the ability to return it to the configuration listed on the Form. If you permanently change the configuration i.e. sell the 10.5" upper and have no way to put it back to listed configuration, BATFE requires notification as to what the new configuration is by letter so they can update the registry. |
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The length should be what the configuration is going to be when you build it. So if you are going to use a 10.5" put 10.5 for the barrel length. As to OAL it is with the stock extended measure to the end of the barrel without any detachable muzzle device. As far as using other length barrels, you can go as long or as short as you want, as long as you maintain the ability to return it to the configuration listed on the Form. If you permanently change the configuration i.e. sell the 10.5" upper and have no way to put it back to listed configuration, BATFE requires notification as to what the new configuration is by letter so they can update the registry. Several corrections here.... NFA Branch cannot and does not require notification of physical changes to the registered NFA firearm. It's beyond their regulatory authority. They politely request that you notify them of permanent changes. Similarly, there is absolutely no requirement to maintain the original configuration. The Form 1 specifies the configuration it will be born with, that's all. It's configuration thereafter is also beyond their regulatory authority. Once it's been built per the Form 1, you are free to change all physical characteristics of the firearm at will provided the change is not inter-classification; i.e. you cannot make changes that would reclassify the firearm as an MG, SBS, DD, etc. And selling does not constitute a permanent change as it pertains to voluntary ATF notification of changes. "Permanent" means the the same here as it does in other aspects of NFA; a modification done to the firearm itself that is either irreversible or very difficult to reverse due to complexity of work, i.e. cutting a barrel or reaming a chamber to change calibers. Modular firearms, like the AR, really don't meet this standard and NFA Branch assumes frequent configuration changes because of it. They fullt understand the registry info is unreliable for AR and similar weapon types. Selling, trading, etc of the original upper or barrel here is not considered a permanent modification. Such a thing is whimsical in nature and no more permanent than the next good deal. |
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The length should be what the configuration is going to be when you build it. So if you are going to use a 10.5" put 10.5 for the barrel length. As to OAL it is with the stock extended measure to the end of the barrel without any detachable muzzle device. As far as using other length barrels, you can go as long or as short as you want, as long as you maintain the ability to return it to the configuration listed on the Form. If you permanently change the configuration i.e. sell the 10.5" upper and have no way to put it back to listed configuration, BATFE requires notification as to what the new configuration is by letter so they can update the registry. Several corrections here.... NFA Branch cannot and does not require notification of physical changes to the registered NFA firearm. It's beyond their regulatory authority. They politely request that you notify them of permanent changes. Similarly, there is absolutely no requirement to maintain the original configuration. The Form 1 specifies the configuration it will be born with, that's all. It's configuration thereafter is also beyond their regulatory authority. Once it's been built per the Form 1, you are free to change all physical characteristics of the firearm at will provided the change is not inter-classification; i.e. you cannot make changes that would reclassify the firearm as an MG, SBS, DD, etc. And selling does not constitute a permanent change as it pertains to voluntary ATF notification of changes. "Permanent" means the the same here as it does in other aspects of NFA; a modification done to the firearm itself that is either irreversible or very difficult to reverse due to complexity of work, i.e. cutting a barrel or reaming a chamber to change calibers. Modular firearms, like the AR, really don't meet this standard and NFA Branch assumes frequent configuration changes because of it. They fullt understand the registry info is unreliable for AR and similar weapon types. Selling, trading, etc of the original upper or barrel here is not considered a permanent modification. Such a thing is whimsical in nature and no more permanent than the next good deal. You are correct they do not require it, they recommend it. When it comes to a federal agency that has the ability to take away my freedom, I will err on the side of caution. And the permanent part has been described by BATFE as not being readily able to return weapon to original listed configuration. My take on that is if you don't have the parts, you may have a hard time doing that. I will look and see if I have the BATFE info saved anywhere. |
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The length should be what the configuration is going to be when you build it. So if you are going to use a 10.5" put 10.5 for the barrel length. As to OAL it is with the stock extended measure to the end of the barrel without any detachable muzzle device. As far as using other length barrels, you can go as long or as short as you want, as long as you maintain the ability to return it to the configuration listed on the Form. If you permanently change the configuration i.e. sell the 10.5" upper and have no way to put it back to listed configuration, BATFE requires notification as to what the new configuration is by letter so they can update the registry. Several corrections here.... NFA Branch cannot and does not require notification of physical changes to the registered NFA firearm. It's beyond their regulatory authority. They politely request that you notify them of permanent changes. Similarly, there is absolutely no requirement to maintain the original configuration. The Form 1 specifies the configuration it will be born with, that's all. It's configuration thereafter is also beyond their regulatory authority. Once it's been built per the Form 1, you are free to change all physical characteristics of the firearm at will provided the change is not inter-classification; i.e. you cannot make changes that would reclassify the firearm as an MG, SBS, DD, etc. And selling does not constitute a permanent change as it pertains to voluntary ATF notification of changes. "Permanent" means the the same here as it does in other aspects of NFA; a modification done to the firearm itself that is either irreversible or very difficult to reverse due to complexity of work, i.e. cutting a barrel or reaming a chamber to change calibers. Modular firearms, like the AR, really don't meet this standard and NFA Branch assumes frequent configuration changes because of it. They fullt understand the registry info is unreliable for AR and similar weapon types. Selling, trading, etc of the original upper or barrel here is not considered a permanent modification. Such a thing is whimsical in nature and no more permanent than the next good deal. You are correct they do not require it, they recommend it. When it comes to a federal agency that has the ability to take away my freedom, I will err on the side of caution. And the permanent part has been described by BATFE as not being readily able to return weapon to original listed configuration. My take on that is if you don't have the parts, you may have a hard time doing that. I will look and see if I have the BATFE info saved anywhere. Errrr, "Recommend" isn't quite right either. They request, because that's as far as their regulatory authority goes. You need not act on their request, it's completely voluntary and there are several compelling reasons not to, especially if the change is not truly permanent. And again, permanence does not involve parts availability. It's the irreversible physical modification they are interested in. |
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So its the stock extended.? Why wouldnt you have the shortest length the configuration would be? I think it has something to do with the stock being collapsible for transport, storage etc. and is to be extended for firing and they want the length in firing configuration. Kind of like they want folding stock AKs measured with stock extended, because that is their normal firing configuration even though they can be fired with stock folded. But the main reason is that is what ATF wants. |
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The length should be what the configuration is going to be when you build it. So if you are going to use a 10.5" put 10.5 for the barrel length. As to OAL it is with the stock extended measure to the end of the barrel without any detachable muzzle device. As far as using other length barrels, you can go as long or as short as you want, as long as you maintain the ability to return it to the configuration listed on the Form. If you permanently change the configuration i.e. sell the 10.5" upper and have no way to put it back to listed configuration, BATFE requires notification as to what the new configuration is by letter so they can update the registry. Several corrections here.... NFA Branch cannot and does not require notification of physical changes to the registered NFA firearm. It's beyond their regulatory authority. They politely request that you notify them of permanent changes. Similarly, there is absolutely no requirement to maintain the original configuration. The Form 1 specifies the configuration it will be born with, that's all. It's configuration thereafter is also beyond their regulatory authority. Once it's been built per the Form 1, you are free to change all physical characteristics of the firearm at will provided the change is not inter-classification; i.e. you cannot make changes that would reclassify the firearm as an MG, SBS, DD, etc. And selling does not constitute a permanent change as it pertains to voluntary ATF notification of changes. "Permanent" means the the same here as it does in other aspects of NFA; a modification done to the firearm itself that is either irreversible or very difficult to reverse due to complexity of work, i.e. cutting a barrel or reaming a chamber to change calibers. Modular firearms, like the AR, really don't meet this standard and NFA Branch assumes frequent configuration changes because of it. They fullt understand the registry info is unreliable for AR and similar weapon types. Selling, trading, etc of the original upper or barrel here is not considered a permanent modification. Such a thing is whimsical in nature and no more permanent than the next good deal. You are correct they do not require it, they recommend it. When it comes to a federal agency that has the ability to take away my freedom, I will err on the side of caution. And the permanent part has been described by BATFE as not being readily able to return weapon to original listed configuration. My take on that is if you don't have the parts, you may have a hard time doing that. I will look and see if I have the BATFE info saved anywhere. Errrr, "Recommend" isn't quite right either. They request, because that's as far as their regulatory authority goes. You need not act on their request, it's completely voluntary and there are several compelling reasons not to, especially if the change is not truly permanent. And again, permanence does not involve parts availability. It's the irreversible physical modification they are interested in. OK we are playing semantics here. They want you to do it. That is good enough for me. What compelling reasons are there for not informing them? They already know you have the firearm. |
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The length should be what the configuration is going to be when you build it. So if you are going to use a 10.5" put 10.5 for the barrel length. As to OAL it is with the stock extended measure to the end of the barrel without any detachable muzzle device. As far as using other length barrels, you can go as long or as short as you want, as long as you maintain the ability to return it to the configuration listed on the Form. If you permanently change the configuration i.e. sell the 10.5" upper and have no way to put it back to listed configuration, BATFE requires notification as to what the new configuration is by letter so they can update the registry. Several corrections here.... NFA Branch cannot and does not require notification of physical changes to the registered NFA firearm. It's beyond their regulatory authority. They politely request that you notify them of permanent changes. Similarly, there is absolutely no requirement to maintain the original configuration. The Form 1 specifies the configuration it will be born with, that's all. It's configuration thereafter is also beyond their regulatory authority. Once it's been built per the Form 1, you are free to change all physical characteristics of the firearm at will provided the change is not inter-classification; i.e. you cannot make changes that would reclassify the firearm as an MG, SBS, DD, etc. And selling does not constitute a permanent change as it pertains to voluntary ATF notification of changes. "Permanent" means the the same here as it does in other aspects of NFA; a modification done to the firearm itself that is either irreversible or very difficult to reverse due to complexity of work, i.e. cutting a barrel or reaming a chamber to change calibers. Modular firearms, like the AR, really don't meet this standard and NFA Branch assumes frequent configuration changes because of it. They fullt understand the registry info is unreliable for AR and similar weapon types. Selling, trading, etc of the original upper or barrel here is not considered a permanent modification. Such a thing is whimsical in nature and no more permanent than the next good deal. You are correct they do not require it, they recommend it. When it comes to a federal agency that has the ability to take away my freedom, I will err on the side of caution. And the permanent part has been described by BATFE as not being readily able to return weapon to original listed configuration. My take on that is if you don't have the parts, you may have a hard time doing that. I will look and see if I have the BATFE info saved anywhere. Errrr, "Recommend" isn't quite right either. They request, because that's as far as their regulatory authority goes. You need not act on their request, it's completely voluntary and there are several compelling reasons not to, especially if the change is not truly permanent. And again, permanence does not involve parts availability. It's the irreversible physical modification they are interested in. OK we are playing semantics here. They want you to do it. That is good enough for me. What compelling reasons are there for not informing them? They already know you have the firearm. Not semantics, accuracy. "Request" is the word they use and it's used for good reason. "Recommend" is not recommended because it can be confused with legal advice. NFA Branch would also recommend that you submit a Form 1before you build your SBR. See the difference? NFA Branch is overburdened and understaffed. Burdening them further with non-essential correspondence -especially based on misinterpretation-only increases that burden. It's also true that the more the registry is revised, the greater the potential for errors to be introduced. While the registry must be revised and modified when required, it should be left alone when not. |
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I'm about to submit a Form 1 as well. I would like some clarification.
So would these answers be sufficient to submit on a Form 1.... Length of barrel: less than 16 inches Length overall: less than 26 inches If they dont care if you change configurations on AR type weapons, it seems that these answers would work... |
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I'm about to submit a Form 1 as well. I would like some clarification. So would these answers be sufficient to submit on a Form 1.... Length of barrel: less than 16 inches Length overall: less than 26 inches If they dont care if you change configurations on AR type weapons, it seems that these answers would work... No. Using those answers will cause your Form 1 to be rejected. You must list one specific OA and barrel length. A Form 1 is an "Application to Make and Register a(n NFA) Firearm." ATF considers the initial act of assembling the SBR the act of "making," and that initial assembly can only be done with one length and one caliber. Once it has been initially assembled, it has been "made" according to the law, and you are then legally free to reconfigure it with any length barrel and in any caliber. |
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I'm about to submit a Form 1 as well. I would like some clarification. So would these answers be sufficient to submit on a Form 1.... Length of barrel: less than 16 inches Length overall: less than 26 inches If they dont care if you change configurations on AR type weapons, it seems that these answers would work... No, they will not work. you are building a SPECIFIC firearm. At the time of registration, they want the SPECIFIC specs of that SPECIFIC firearm. There is no such thing as a "Shorter Barrel Rifle" so once you have a tax stamp for a SBR, you are free to change the configuration at will. You need to put down what you will be initially constructing and since the gun will only have one barrel length, one OAL and one caliber at the time of construction, that's what you put down. As to why you measure with the stock extended, a short-barrel rifle is designed a firearm designed or made from a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder. Think of it more in terms of an AK underfolder. Since it's designed to be fired from the shoulder, you would measure with the apparatus that allows you to fire from the shoulder the deployed position. Same with an M1 Carbine with a side-folder. This is a little less applicable with a collapsible stock like the AR, because it can still be fired from the shoulder with the stock collapsed, but the principle still applies. Also, be glad the measurement is with the stock extended. Some guns that are currently Title I would be Title II firearms if you had to measure with the stock collapsed, as they would not make the 26" OAL. |
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I'm about to submit a Form 1 as well. I would like some clarification. So would these answers be sufficient to submit on a Form 1.... Length of barrel: less than 16 inches Length overall: less than 26 inches If they dont care if you change configurations on AR type weapons, it seems that these answers would work... No, you need to be exact and specific about your barrel length, caliber and OAL or they will likely send it back to you. You are applying to build a firearm, not use it, so the context of the Form 1 is the configuration of the proposed build only, not what you plan to do after that. ETA: I'm way too slow on the iPhone.... |
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(snip) Not semantics, accuracy. "Request" is the word they use and it's used for good reason. "Recommend" is not recommended because it can be confused with legal advice. NFA Branch would also recommend that you submit a Form 1before you build your SBR. See the difference? NFA Branch is overburdened and understaffed. Burdening them further with non-essential correspondence -especially based on misinterpretation-only increases that burden. It's also true that the more the registry is revised, the greater the potential for errors to be introduced. While the registry must be revised and modified when required, it should be left alone when not. Just to clarify things.... Federal law requires ATF to maintain the NFA Registry as accurately as possible. That means that under federal law, ATF must request that you notify them when changes in configuration are made, so that the Registry can be updated. As noted, there is no law requiring the registrant to notify ATF of changes. Therefore, there is no legal liability in failing to do so. NFA Branch certainly is overburdened and understaffed right now. Configuration change letters have the lowest priority, but still, that's another stack of documentation to pile on too few desks .... I would expect that NFA staffers wish those sort of letters would stop arriving, though by law they must request them. 
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How do I fill out the forms?
Where it lists caliber, I would list all you may want to use (within reason i.e. 22, 9mm, 223, 300/221 as there is no real requirement currently to list all calibers as with the AR-15, that would be insane). For "barrel length" and "overall length" on the Form 1, people have used "less than 16 inches" or "7-15 inches" to allow their SBR paperwork to allow as many options as possible. Got this off the SBR FAQ thread... This was the reasoning for the questions I posed earlier...
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Quoted: Will one of you guys either post or IM me the link to the latest version of the Form 1. Thanks. LS All of the forms on the ATF website are the latest versions. http://www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/ |
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How do I fill out the forms? Where it lists caliber, I would list all you may want to use (within reason i.e. 22, 9mm, 223, 300/221 as there is no real requirement currently to list all calibers as with the AR-15, that would be insane). For "barrel length" and "overall length" on the Form 1, people have used "less than 16 inches" or "7-15 inches" to allow their SBR paperwork to allow as many options as possible. Got this off the SBR FAQ thread... This was the reasoning for the questions I posed earlier... That info is out of date and has always been incorrect. Someone should revise it. There was a time when you could list lengths and calibers you intended to use, but ATF has of late been insisting -and correctly so- that specific and single values be provided. The Form 1 has been overly and incorrectly interpreted be many registrants to cover use in addition to make. It's just never been the case. |
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Quoted: Unless 3 cclass3 dealers who also hold manufacturing licenses (07) are wrong they say OAL is the shortest configuration of the weapon ie stock fully colapsed Not saying they are right but it makes sense Will call monday They're wrong. ATF says it's with the stock fully extended. Otherwise there would be numerous unregistered SBRs floating around. There are numerous rifles that have 16" barrels but are under 26" OAL with the stock folded. |
| According to the ATF NFA Handbook (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf) "The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore". To me, that means stock fully open/extended. |
| I always thought OAL meant overall lenght. Which in my mind says that would be the longest possible measurement you could take on your rifle from one end to the other.If the stock was colapsed when you measure your OAL then that wouldnt really be the OAL, because the secound you extend the stock all the way out it becomes longer. |
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But longer is not an issue i would think.. The more i think about both was make sense.. Will fill it out extended and not worry Using the extended measurement has worked for me since the 1950's. Damn the 50's?! No wonder your so smart  Well, I shot my first machine gun at age 8, and the first words that got past my Full-Auto Grin were, "How do you get one of these?!?!?" So while other kids were playing cowboys and indians, I was the pesky kid writing letters to the IRS's Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division (which administered the National Firearms Act back then) asking for copies of every NFA-related rule booklet and form they had .... 
While I can't claim that a half-century of research and hands-on learning has made me smart, it sure has been a fun experience. 
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