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Posted: 11/19/2013 6:32:44 PM EDT
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I am debating between two models: the Defender 6637 and the Guardian 6637. I am going to upgrade to the redundant lock option (both an electronic keypad entry and dial combination). Both vaults have 10 gauge outer body and outer door and the door has 1/4" steel plate. I have questions on whether the couple features offered on the Guardian series are worth the price differences. Differing features and general questions are as follows:
1. Defender has 13 locking bolts where the Guardian has 20. Does the increased number of bolts significantly increase the security? 2. Guardian comes with corner bolts as standard but I've read that they may be all for show so if I go with the Guardian, I may choose to remove them and safe a few bucks or add them to the Defender as an upgrade. 3. I think I want to add the Armaknox AR 500 ballistic level 3 rated steel liner upgrade. It is 7 gauge (3/16") and has a tensile strength of 224,568 psi whereas 1/4" vaults is 8386 psi. At nearly $1400 to upgrade, would this significantly increase the security of my safe to at least near TL ratings? Does it significantly make if more difficult drill and/or saw into? 4. I can upgrade the body to 3/16" body and 3/8" plate to the door. If I upgrade to the Armaknox, I don't think I would need to do this. Would this be accurate assumption? 5. The Defender comes with a 5 spoke clutch handle. The Guardian comes with 5 to 1 reduction rack & pinion multi-gear drive locking mechanism. Is there an advantage to this or is this pure fluff? This price difference between the two models options come out to ~$850. So, do the more door bolts and the 5 to 1 reduction rack & pinion multi-gear drive locking mechanism worth the cost to increased security? Also, please comment on any or all of the above features/questions. |
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1) Not likely.
2) In this case, the corner bolts don't do much. 3) Nowhere near TL ratings. People really need to get this out of their heads. There is nothing you can do to a typical gun safe, from any of the normal gun safe manufacturers, that would put them anywhere near the level of security a true TL rated safe offers. That aside, it will certainly add security to the safe. 4) It depends on what type of attack you're aiming to prevent. 5) I have opened a few Fort Knox safes that have had a gear break apart and jam up the boltwork. I don't think it's common, but it's yet one more thing that could potentially go wrong. |
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You can't go wrong with a Fort Knox.
I went with a large Protector mirror black with black chrome hardware and corner bolts with a combo lock. With no decals it is a beautiful monolithic piece of work. Combo locks are easy enough to open so why bother with an electronic that offers little convenience and less faith. The geared rack and pinion is cool but I couldn't see, or feel, the need to pay more for it. The corner locks are cool but whatever they add in strength is irrelevant. It just happened to be on the safe I wanted. I can't remember the upgraded steel package I got. I don't think it matters. If your safe can endure a prybar and torch attack from an average thief you're doing good. If your safe can endure a fire you're doing good. A professional is going to get it and there is nothing much you can do about that. A basic Defender is a pretty solid unit. Get one that is attractive and large. |
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Sorry if I double posted this Frank, it seems to be a point not understood that bears repeating:
Nowhere near TL ratings. People really need to get this out of their heads. There is nothing you can do to a typical gun safe, from any of the normal gun safe manufacturers, that would put them anywhere near the level of security a true TL rated safe offers. I was all set for a Sturdy with a 5 gauge body, then they offered the 4 gauge body, and I was going to add the 7 gauge plates (and this would have been very secure and I do like Sturdy) and then the buy a TL light went on for the same money more or less. |
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Just a few comments on AR500 plate. Not slamming anyone, just offering some insight so you make decisions with full understanding of the AR Plate upgrade value.
AR500, or similar hard plate, is very effective against tools that slow-cut like drills, sawzall, hole-saws and radial saw blades. However, the value becomes almost negligible when the material is subjected to high-speed abrasive cutting tools. We did extensive testing on this, because UL uses the Abrasive wheel as their primary breech tool anywhere the blade can touch metal. We learned some very important lessons with our scientific testing. The most important is that when the cutter generate extreme heat, the AR plate gets annealed at the cut point, and hardly slows the cutting process. In fact, when cutting 1/2" thick AR500 plate vs 1/2" ASTM A36 (50,0000 ksi), the difference in cut times was on the order of seconds for cuts 6 inches long. There is a sweet spot where given enough horsepower, the right feed pressure and technique can almost cut at the same rate as mild steel. So, you will see that with contemporary TL safes, there is never any hard steel on the outside barriers. It's always buried deep in the layers of construction where this saw can't reach. The cut depth of the saw UL uses, the Milwaukee worm-drive circular saw, equipped with a thin abrasive cutoff wheel is about 2-3/8 deep. They use this saw to remove the outer layers of steel on a safe wall or door, regardless of the thickness, with deadly effectiveness. They can remove a 10x10 inch square of 10 gauge steel in just over 1 minute. They eat blades like crazy, but changing blades is all off the clock. They buy the blades by the case. In our last testing at UL, they ruined three (3) of these saws during the testing. They go in the trash, we get the bill. These saws are intended to be used on wood, not metal, and the metal and blade dust eats up the motor and bearings really fast. Food for thought. |
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Thank you TSG for the AR500 comments, interesting. I took a different logic approach, you do not see AR500 advertised in ANY TL rated product so to me at least, this indicated more of a snake oil marketing gimmick but the real explanation was nice to read.
Back to the UL testing for a minute, you commented about the plates being below the bite depth of the saw (my choice of words I might have FUBARED it a bit), so are you talking something like a TL-30X6 that has actual alloy plates in the sides? I got the impression most TL boxes just have high psi mix with carbide nuggets and other nasty things in the side, but not metal except the thin sheet metal 10/12 gauge outer inner liners. On another note, if UL is testing a competing brand, such as an ISM safe, can you attend as an Amsec employee since you are in the industry. |
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Thank you TSG for the AR500 comments, interesting. I took a different logic approach, you do not see AR500 advertised in ANY TL rated product so to me at least, this indicated more of a snake oil marketing gimmick but the real explanation was nice to read. Back to the UL testing for a minute, you commented about the plates being below the bite depth of the saw (my choice of words I might have FUBARED it a bit), so are you talking something like a TL-30X6 that has actual alloy plates in the sides? I got the impression most TL boxes just have high psi mix with carbide nuggets and other nasty things in the side, but not metal except the thin sheet metal 10/12 gauge outer inner liners. On another note, if UL is testing a competing brand, such as an ISM safe, can you attend as an Amsec employee since you are in the industry. This is a little too sensitive to discuss. Some barriers have hardplate steel, in various places for specific reasons. More-so in doors than in bodies on the x6 models. There is a good bit of AR500, and other "hardplate" alloys in the TL30X6. 'nuff said. No, the tests are completely private. UL will not share anything with anybody about a given manufacturer's construction. It's all kept very secret. |
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This is a little to sensitive to discuss. Some barriers have hardplate steel, in various places for specific reasons. More-so in doors than in bodies on the x6 models. There is a good bit of AR500, and other "hardplate" alloys in the TL30X6. 'nuff said. No, the tests are completely private. UL will not share anything with anybody about a given manufacturer's construction. It's all kept very secret. Quoted:
Quoted:
Thank you TSG for the AR500 comments, interesting. I took a different logic approach, you do not see AR500 advertised in ANY TL rated product so to me at least, this indicated more of a snake oil marketing gimmick but the real explanation was nice to read. Back to the UL testing for a minute, you commented about the plates being below the bite depth of the saw (my choice of words I might have FUBARED it a bit), so are you talking something like a TL-30X6 that has actual alloy plates in the sides? I got the impression most TL boxes just have high psi mix with carbide nuggets and other nasty things in the side, but not metal except the thin sheet metal 10/12 gauge outer inner liners. On another note, if UL is testing a competing brand, such as an ISM safe, can you attend as an Amsec employee since you are in the industry. This is a little to sensitive to discuss. Some barriers have hardplate steel, in various places for specific reasons. More-so in doors than in bodies on the x6 models. There is a good bit of AR500, and other "hardplate" alloys in the TL30X6. 'nuff said. No, the tests are completely private. UL will not share anything with anybody about a given manufacturer's construction. It's all kept very secret. As always, thank you for sharing what you can, fascinating stuff. |
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I have a Guardian 6637 with a steel liner. With the liner and standard exterior metal, there is over 1/4" of steel between the inside and outside of the safe. From the perspective of someone attacking the safe, you get through one layer only to realize there's more to come. In other words, probably give up at this point. And, that second layer is harder to attack because it is below the first layer inside whatever narrow opening has already been made. I know it's not a bank vault, but only the serious professional is getting in through the walls.
The door is so robust with the 1/4" plate and bolts that it's hard to image attacking the safe from that direction. The door is recessed and fits well so a prying attack seems impossible. Add to that the fact that the steel plate is down, under the composite door -- next to the jamb. Getting anything down to that level seems unlikely. The safe weighs almost 1600 pounds empty. While a good pallet jack makes moving it doable, getting it up, off the floor is difficult. From my perspective, any heavier than this will be a real problem for starting the lift. It is already very hard to start and end the installation at this weight. I've moved mine with a good pallet jack, which was necessary when I tiled the room it's in. It's a beast at 1600 pounds. Most of the time of the move was in getting it up to begin and getting it on the jack. Then, the other issue is getting it off the jack and back down precisely where you want it. I had this real sense when pulling the last dowel out from underneath the safe that I sure hoped the position of the safe was gonna work out. I surely wouldn't look forward to moving it again. So, any heavier than the 10 gauge with liner and standard door is gonna be a PITA to move. Love my safe and love the rack and pinion bolt system. Every time I work the mechanism I smile. Quality not only looks good it feels good! If you pick the right numbers for your lock and "preload" the initial turns when you close it, it takes just a few seconds to open a rotary lock. I don't see the dual combination thingy as valuable. The Fort Knox lighting package is excellent and really bathes the interior with light when the door opens. Also, absolutely, positively get external hinges. They don't cost anything and make the safe infinitely more usable and friendly. |
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...Also, absolutely, positively get external hinges. They don't cost anything and make the safe infinitely more usable and friendly. I went with internal hinges and had the door open to the dead wall. I just don't like the way the external hinges look and having the door open up to the dead wall I'm not loosing any access. |
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I went with internal hinges and had the door open to the dead wall. I just don't like the way the external hinges look and having the door open up to the dead wall I'm not loosing any access. BEWARE: Internal hinges look nice, but there is a flaw in the design. With internal hinges, the swing geometry of the hinge requires the hinge bar closes inside right up against the inner side wall behind the jambs, If you look at popular safes with internal hinges, there is a thin plastic dressing ring in a pocket under that hinge plate on both hinges. It's a box area, probably 6 x 8 inches in under each hinge where the drywall is all cut out. Under that dressing piece is... the outer safe wall. It's a HUGE fail point under fire conditions. The plastic dressing ring melts away real fast, and you then have outside steel wall areas directly exposed to the safe interior. I can tell you from real fire testing experience that this is a terrible feature in a fire safe. You want external hinges, no exceptions... I won't mention brand names, but several popular models have internal hinges. Pop that cover off and see what you will find if you don't believe. Just a heads up on that.... if you have a choice, choose external hinges. For a while in the late 90's we had internal hinges, but later testing revealed the badness of the exposed super-hot steel inside. We went back to external hinges. I makes a considerable difference in the endurance times. That's a fact... not a theory. |
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When I bought my first gun safe in the early 2000's I chose an Amsec Highland model that has internal hinges.
Trying to get things in and out of there was a PIA so for my second gun safe I decided positively not to go internal hinge no matter what. I love that full swing afforded by outside hinges. |
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Thank you all for your responses. I previewed several other relevant post prior to posting my question(s) and inferred that member of this forum are both passionate AND knowledgeable on the topics at hand. I very much appreciate all the responses my post received and take all comments to heart and take each into in depth consideration for I seldom make rash/emotional purchases; hence, I posted my questions/concerns in this forum for I anticipated valuable insight into this topic and what I am considering.
With that in mind, I was first considering AmSec T/L rated vaults. I had contacted a dealer in my area but they do not have inventory for me to look at and evaluate. In addition, their TL rated safes (even their T/L-15 safes) are out of my price range, Also, the other nearest dealer is 70 miles away I have looked at and evaluated Liberty Safes and have read some not so favorable reviews/opinions. Per the responses from my original post, I have investigated Sturdy Safes but am able to find a "Find a Dealer" on their website for I would like a dealer somewhat local (within 50 or so miles). If someone can point me to this feature , I would appreciate it. as you all know, per my original topic, I have found Fort Knox (actually my wife pointed it out to me). They are local (within 30 miiles) and am please with their customization options. One of the main features is the redundant lock. I foresee my wife liking the ease of use the electronic lock and the ability of having multiple combinations, my wife can have her own combination different to mine. I am not set on the redundant lock yet so that still leaves me open to various safe suggestions. I recently viewed some Sturdy safe videos that illustrate using a torch to cut through standard steel vs. stainless steel. My other question is what is more resistant to the torch, stainless steel or the AR-500 that I am considering? All insights are indeed welcome. 
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Thank you all for your responses. I previewed several other relevant post prior to posting my question(s) and inferred that member of this forum are both passionate AND knowledgeable on the topics at hand. I very much appreciate all the responses my post received and take all comments to heart and take each into in depth consideration for I seldom make rash/emotional purchases; hence, I posted my questions/concerns in this forum for I anticipated valuable insight into this topic and what I am considering. With that in mind, I was first considering AmSec T/L rated vaults. I had contacted a dealer in my area but they do not have inventory for me to look at and evaluate. In addition, their TL rated safes (even their T/L-15 safes) are out of my price range, Also, the other nearest dealer is 70 miles away I have looked at and evaluated Liberty Safes and have read some not so favorable reviews/opinions. Per the responses from my original post, I have investigated Sturdy Safes but am able to find a "Find a Dealer" on their website for I would like a dealer somewhat local (within 50 or so miles). If someone can point me to this feature , I would appreciate it. as you all know, per my original topic, I have found Fort Knox (actually my wife pointed it out to me). They are local (within 30 miiles) and am please with their customization options. One of the main features is the redundant lock. I foresee my wife liking the ease of use the electronic lock and the ability of having multiple combinations, my wife can have her own combination different to mine. I am not set on the redundant lock yet so that still leaves me open to various safe suggestions. I recently viewed some Sturdy safe videos that illustrate using a torch to cut through standard steel vs. stainless steel. My other question is what is more resistant to the torch, stainless steel or the AR-500 that I am considering? All insights are indeed welcome. I never really went through the concerns you have, but can tell you I am very pleased with my Fort Knox. I have insurance on my collection,wanted the redundant lock system, and security / fire rating that had some integrity. There are better safes in every aspect but I wanted one big safe vs multiple little ones. I also wanted the safe to be tucked away rather than in my garage or in plain view. If you get a 4000Lb TL rated beast it'll limit your options. I also really like the BF line of safes for general purpose. If you have some high value items like gold, jewelry etc consider getting a small concealable TL safe for that, and a moderate safe(Sturdy, AMSEC BF, Fort Knox) for the guns. |
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Internal hinges look nice, but there is a flaw in the design. With internal hinges, the swing geometry of the hinge requires the hinge bar closes inside right up against the inner side wall behind the jambs, If you look at popular safes with internal hinges, there is a thin plastic dressing ring in a pocket under that hinge plate on both hinges. It's a box area, probably 6 x 8 inches in under each hinge where the drywall is all cut out. Under that dressing piece is... the outer safe wall... It is my understanding that Fort Knox still has insulation behind the hinges. |
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Quoted:
Thank you all for your responses. I previewed several other relevant post prior to posting my question(s) and inferred that member of this forum are both passionate AND knowledgeable on the topics at hand. I very much appreciate all the responses my post received and take all comments to heart and take each into in depth consideration for I seldom make rash/emotional purchases; hence, I posted my questions/concerns in this forum for I anticipated valuable insight into this topic and what I am considering. With that in mind, I was first considering AmSec T/L rated vaults. I had contacted a dealer in my area but they do not have inventory for me to look at and evaluate. In addition, their TL rated safes (even their T/L-15 safes) are out of my price range, Also, the other nearest dealer is 70 miles away I have looked at and evaluated Liberty Safes and have read some not so favorable reviews/opinions. Per the responses from my original post, I have investigated Sturdy Safes but am able to find a "Find a Dealer" on their website for I would like a dealer somewhat local (within 50 or so miles). If someone can point me to this feature , I would appreciate it. as you all know, per my original topic, I have found Fort Knox (actually my wife pointed it out to me). They are local (within 30 miiles) and am please with their customization options. One of the main features is the redundant lock. I foresee my wife liking the ease of use the electronic lock and the ability of having multiple combinations, my wife can have her own combination different to mine. I am not set on the redundant lock yet so that still leaves me open to various safe suggestions. I recently viewed some Sturdy safe videos that illustrate using a torch to cut through standard steel vs. stainless steel. My other question is what is more resistant to the torch, stainless steel or the AR-500 that I am considering? All insights are indeed welcome. If you can afford Ft Knox you can afford AMSEC TL, you might need to shop around. Sturdy only sells direct via the web, if you find yourself in California you can stop and see the shop/models. A torch attack would be very rare unless you leave your personal welding equipment in your garage. I do not recall you throwing out a $ budget number, it would help. |
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If you can afford Ft Knox you can afford AMSEC TL, you might need to shop around. Sturdy only sells direct via the web, if you find yourself in California you can stop and see the shop/models. A torch attack would be very rare unless you leave your personal welding equipment in your garage. I do not recall you throwing out a $ budget number, it would help. Your info on the torch is very helpful for I just checked on a stainless steel option. That would increase my cost by approx. 3K. That would put me in the range of the AmSec RS6528. From your input, it looks like I probably would not need the statinless steel upgrade. I was hoping to stay within the 5-6K range but, of course want to know that it's not a tin box that anyone can hack into very easily. I checked on the Amsec RS6528. I recall the quoted price in the $8500 or so range. Online I check their HS series and they were above $10,000. I went YIKES. I am one, at least for this, like to personally see samples of what i would be purchasing. So, I may be driving an hour or so to dealers that may have some AmSec safes on their floor that I can look at. |
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Your info on the torch is very helpful for I just checked on a stainless steel option. That would increase my cost by approx. 3K. That would put me in the range of the AmSec RS6528. From your input, it looks like I probably would not need the statinless steel upgrade. I was hoping to stay within the 5-6K range but, of course want to know that it's not a tin box that anyone can hack into very easily. I checked on the Amsec RS6528. I recall the quoted price in the $8500 or so range. Online I check their HS series and they were above $10,000. I went YIKES. I am one, at least for this, like to personally see samples of what i would be purchasing. So, I may be driving an hour or so to dealers that may have some AmSec safes on their floor that I can look at. Quoted:
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If you can afford Ft Knox you can afford AMSEC TL, you might need to shop around. Sturdy only sells direct via the web, if you find yourself in California you can stop and see the shop/models. A torch attack would be very rare unless you leave your personal welding equipment in your garage. I do not recall you throwing out a $ budget number, it would help. Your info on the torch is very helpful for I just checked on a stainless steel option. That would increase my cost by approx. 3K. That would put me in the range of the AmSec RS6528. From your input, it looks like I probably would not need the statinless steel upgrade. I was hoping to stay within the 5-6K range but, of course want to know that it's not a tin box that anyone can hack into very easily. I checked on the Amsec RS6528. I recall the quoted price in the $8500 or so range. Online I check their HS series and they were above $10,000. I went YIKES. I am one, at least for this, like to personally see samples of what i would be purchasing. So, I may be driving an hour or so to dealers that may have some AmSec safes on their floor that I can look at. I was quoted under $6K for a RF6528 from a brick and mortar, you can find them online in the $5300 range so that should give you an idea. You are always better to buy local if you can. Here is an AMSEC TL-15 6528, very similar, no fancy paint, no fancy interior, less secure on paper and probably very little difference in security for a home setting. TL-15 On-line price is $3896, if you local dealer is 20% more to cover the extra overhead, etc you are still under $5,000. I was able to find brick and mortar stores within 10% of on-line prices and the extra is worth every penny for something this heavy. I would recommend you shop within a 200 mile radius of home. |
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The RF6528 can be had from AD for Just under $5K in CA. Shipping may be $$ because its sooo heavy Shipping and moving is part of my cost factors. I received an estimate in the $400 range for delivery and placement where I want in my house. To me, that is a very reasonable price for something that large. |
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I was quoted under $6K for a RF6528 from a brick and mortar, you can find them online in the $5300 range so that should give you an idea. You are always better to buy local if you can. Here is an AMSEC TL-15 6528, very similar, no fancy paint, no fancy interior, less secure on paper and probably very little difference in security for a home setting. TL-15 On-line price is $3896, if you local dealer is 20% more to cover the extra overhead, etc you are still under $5,000. I was able to find brick and mortar stores within 10% of on-line prices and the extra is worth every penny for something this heavy. I would recommend you shop within a 200 mile radius of home. I see the safe in your link was not a "gun" safe, hence, is why I did not see in when I was looking on the AmSec website. That's fine with me but I am curious, is the only real differences in gun safes is the shelving? If so, I can make the interior shelves and get carpet remnants to line them. Do they, can they have internal electrical connections for dehumidifier, lighting, etc.? The FK have them built in. |
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I do not believe that the RF or the Amvaults come standard order with holes in them. If you were placing an order with a dealer or distributor that was ordering from AMSEC, they may be able to order it with holes.
If you are buying in-stock product originally ordered without holes you would need your AD to drill them for you, hire a specialist, or go at it DIY. I believe that I read in this thread (or another) that Frank has done this and its no walk in the park. These safes are truly designed to keep people from drilling holes in them. |
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I see the safe in your link was not a "gun" safe, hence, is why I did not see in when I was looking on the AmSec website. That's fine with me but I am curious, is the only real differences in gun safes is the shelving? If so, I can make the interior shelves and get carpet remnants to line them. Do they, can they have internal electrical connections for dehumidifier, lighting, etc.? The FK have them built in. Quoted:
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I was quoted under $6K for a RF6528 from a brick and mortar, you can find them online in the $5300 range so that should give you an idea. You are always better to buy local if you can. Here is an AMSEC TL-15 6528, very similar, no fancy paint, no fancy interior, less secure on paper and probably very little difference in security for a home setting. TL-15 On-line price is $3896, if you local dealer is 20% more to cover the extra overhead, etc you are still under $5,000. I was able to find brick and mortar stores within 10% of on-line prices and the extra is worth every penny for something this heavy. I would recommend you shop within a 200 mile radius of home. I see the safe in your link was not a "gun" safe, hence, is why I did not see in when I was looking on the AmSec website. That's fine with me but I am curious, is the only real differences in gun safes is the shelving? If so, I can make the interior shelves and get carpet remnants to line them. Do they, can they have internal electrical connections for dehumidifier, lighting, etc.? The FK have them built in. If you want a hole to run a goldenrod order it as a factory option, IIRC, it is on AMSECS price list which you can find through a search. Do not DIY a hole on a TL. |
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How important is a dehumidifier inside the safe for guns and/or other valuables. Is this only important in southern and coastal regions? I live in the midwest region. You can go with a rod or use desiccant, the rod is basically maint free, the other has to be rotated maybe once a month, depending on conditions. I have used both and rod is preferred but the other works fine, you just have to keep more of an eye on the desiccant and use a humidity monitor in the safe (which are 10 bucks or so). |
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