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Posted: 5/10/2012 4:57:17 AM EDT
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Liberty Timer Ridge. S&G manual lock.
No recent issues, about 6 months old. Today, when to open the safe. Entered combo several times. When I turn to unlock, there should be slight resistance around 87, when the mechanism unlocks. Today, I get to about 95, and get hard resistance. I didn't force it, for fear of horking it up worse. Suggestions/recommendations? |
| I have had two different safes with S&G combo locks that the numbers wandered. And one other that the resistance started when turning it back to zero. Two of them I changed over to electronic locks, the other I sold. I have one other safe that has a S&G dial lock on that I have not had any problems. It seems that they make at least two different dial locks and one of them is junk. |
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Quoted: Liberty Timer Ridge. S&G manual lock. No recent issues, about 6 months old. Today, when to open the safe. Entered combo several times. When I turn to unlock, there should be slight resistance around 87, when the mechanism unlocks. Today, I get to about 95, and get hard resistance. I didn't force it, for fear of horking it up worse. Suggestions/recommendations? Unpossible. Arfcommers say mechanical locks never fail.................. They do fail. Keep working it gently, it may eventually open and you can then replace the lock. Otherwise, you are going to need a professional. ETA: I see you got it open. Order a new lock, do not close the safe. They are easy to change. Both times I have seen this happen, they were replaced with electronic locks. Install and test the new lock prior to closing the safe door. |
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Just got off the phone with Liberty. They're dispatching a tech. They think a misalignment and/or relocker firing.
Of course, I didn't think to ask on the phone. There is a feature where you turn the dial to 0, and you can lock the safe with the key. Bad idea or good idea, in the mean time? I don't know how I feel about just leaving it open. |
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Hard resistance could also be a sympton of back pressure on the boltwork of the safe, and it doesn't take much. The door adjusters being too snug, or safe contents laying on the floor of the safe in front of the shelving dividers are the most common causes.
Other causes would be internal to the lock, and all are bad news from a failure stand point. Don't lock the safe until it has been looked at. Using the key to get in and out of the safe is usually not a good idea, as it offers much less security. It is also not a good idea to do this while waiting for the tech to look at your safe, because if it is a problem with the lock, it can still lock you out. |
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Quoted:
Hard resistance could also be a sympton of back pressure on the boltwork of the safe, and it doesn't take much. The door adjusters being too snug, or safe contents laying on the floor of the safe in front of the shelving dividers are the most common causes. Other causes would be internal to the lock, and all are bad news from a failure stand point. Don't lock the safe until it has been looked at. Using the key to get in and out of the safe is usually not a good idea, as it offers much less security. It is also not a good idea to do this while waiting for the tech to look at your safe, because if it is a problem with the lock, it can still lock you out. No change in contents for some time. Nothing on the floor in front of the shelves. I don't normally use the key lock method, unless i'm stepping out for a few minutes, or will remain at the house, but not at the safe. Just thought it might be a decent stop-gap while the safe is being fixed. But if there's a risk of it locking up, no thanks. |
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Did you change the combo with the tool I sent you? If yes, what did you use for the 3rd number?... remember that the 3rd number of the combo cannot be in the "forbidden zone", which is above 90 or below 20. Having the 3rd number in this zone will cause the exact issue you described... or worse, a complete lock-out due to jammed internal lock parts in conflict with each other.
When you're turning the dial conunterclockwise to open, after having dialed in your combo, the lock's lever nose falls into the drive cam at about 7 or 8 (called "drop in point"). You should feel more resistance in the dial at this point, but not a lot. After passing that drop in, your tumblers are doing nothing, they've already done their job. All you're doing when turning the dial further is withdrawing the lock bolt, so that's where you look for trouble. Is the door handle / door bolts fully in the closed position? If not, the boltworks will put sideways pressure on the combo lock's bolt (not to be confused with the door bolts) causing a friction "drag" on the side of the lock bolt. This drag will be greatly ampliphied in the amount of force needed to turn the dial. With the door OPEN, lock the boltworks (you may need to find the trigger release that holds the bolts in with the door open, and release it to allow the bolts to extend). Make sure the bolts are completely extended but you have the door open. Scramble the dial, then try entering your combo. If everything works OK now, your problem is the boltworks aren't extending fully with the door closed, causing the problem in above paragraph. If not, I'm afraid you need professional help to see what's wrong. Without seeing it in person, it's hard to diagnose the problem. But I will say this. If the lock works up to and including the drop in point at 7-8... IOW, you dial your combo and everything is fine until you turn the dial past 7 downward towards 89 and the end of the process... it's not a "tumbler" issue, as if it were you wouldn't get that far (unless the 3rd number is in the "forbidden zone" of 90-20). But not being a tumbler issue doesn't mean it's not another problem in the lock itself, but it sounds more like a boltworks issue putting side pressure on the lock's bolt to me. edit to add: a relocker firing would prevent the door bolts from withdrawing. that's not your problem if you got the door open. |
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Quoted:
Just got off the phone with Liberty. They're dispatching a tech. They think a misalignment and/or relocker firing. Of course, I didn't think to ask on the phone. There is a feature where you turn the dial to 0, and you can lock the safe with the key. Bad idea or good idea, in the mean time? I don't know how I feel about just leaving it open. If you were a little further north, or I was little further south... it'd be me coming on behalf of Liberty.  But we're likely 125 - 150 miles apart. Too far for them to call me.... we locksmiths charge by the mile. 
Locking the dial with the key will not lock the door. You must turn the handle to extend the door bolts, then scramble the dial to lock the safe. All the keylock in the dial does is prevent the dial from turning. You do NOT want to scramble the dial with the door closed until your problem has been properly resolved. If you can lock the dial at zero with the combo lock in the unlocked position, by all means, do so. You will prevent the dial from being scrambled. If the dial can't turn, you can close the door... but to be on the safe side, don't turn the handle fully extending the door bolts. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Liberty Timer Ridge. S&G manual lock. No recent issues, about 6 months old. Today, when to open the safe. Entered combo several times. When I turn to unlock, there should be slight resistance around 87, when the mechanism unlocks. Today, I get to about 95, and get hard resistance. I didn't force it, for fear of horking it up worse. Suggestions/recommendations? Unpossible. Arfcommers say mechanical locks never fail.................. They do fail. Keep working it gently, it may eventually open and you can then replace the lock. Otherwise, you are going to need a professional. ETA: I see you got it open. Order a new lock, do not close the safe. They are easy to change. Both times I have seen this happen, they were replaced with electronic locks. Install and test the new lock prior to closing the safe door. Tell you what.... I've been a full-time professional locksmith for 26 years. I've drilled open hundreds of safes due to malfunctioning locks. I'd say the ratio of failure of those I've seen in two & half decades is about 25 electronic to 1 manual. I have seen *good manual locks fail, although it's rare... but the cause has usually been due to some other factor than poor design or poorly made parts, such as "abuse" by the user. Wanna "abuse" a manual lock? Then spin that dial like it was a roulette wheel, or spray some "lubricant" through the change key hole. 
* good = Sargent & Greenleaf or La Gard.... not Sentry or Stack On or chinese crap. |
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Thanks for the info, RFB45colt!
Combo has not been changed, nor have I ever even popped off the back cover to the door. From what I can tell, the door seemed fine. Nothing blocking it, etc. I did try pushing in on the door, rattling the door, and jiggling the unlock wheel. Liberty stated that they will have a tech get in touch with me. Not sure what their turnaround time is, but it's been 24 hours. I still use my cell phone number from when I was stationed in IL many moons ago. Many times, Folks assume the "618" means "608". So if i don't hear back in a few days, I'll call again. I am tempted to try the lock again with the door open. As mentioned, I enter the combo, and then turn to about 87 to unlock. When I get to 95, it's a solid hit. I don't spin the dial, or abuse it. The last thing I want to do is damage the safe
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Quoted:
Thanks for the info, RFB45colt! Combo has not been changed, nor have I ever even popped off the back cover to the door. From what I can tell, the door seemed fine. Nothing blocking it, etc. I did try pushing in on the door, rattling the door, and jiggling the unlock wheel. Liberty stated that they will have a tech get in touch with me. Not sure what their turnaround time is, but it's been 24 hours. I still use my cell phone number from when I was stationed in IL many moons ago. Many times, Folks assume the "618" means "608". So if i don't hear back in a few days, I'll call again. I am tempted to try the lock again with the door open. As mentioned, I enter the combo, and then turn to about 87 to unlock. When I get to 95, it's a solid hit. I don't spin the dial, or abuse it. The last thing I want to do is damage the safe Your safe will have two relockers... one is integral inside the lock itself, the other is arranged so if the lock is forcibly "punched" it's released into a recess in the boltworks. Both are held in the "open" position by the tightness of the screws that hold the back cover of the lock in place. If the back cover gets loose, the "teeter-toter" (sp?) like internal relocker will swing enough to engage a small cut-out in the lock bolt. If the lock bolt can't move, the dial can't turn. But..... there's no way it can move from the drop-in point of 7-8 back to 95 if the internal relocker got released. You'd never get it past 5 on the dial (I just did a "simulation" test on one of mine to be certain). The other, external, relocker is a bolt mounted next to the lock externally, under spring tension, that's held in place by a an "extra" metal plate being screwed down over the back cover of the lock, usually with the same screws that hold the lock's back cover in place. If this got released, the lock would function normally (provided the internal one wasn't released too), but the handle wouldn't budge as it's only the bolt-works that are effected by the external relocker. Go ahead and take the door's inner upholstery cover off... you won't hurt anything by doing this. You'll then see the external relocker device, likely just a few inches left of the lock as you look at it from that side. The two screws that go through the plate holding it up, and hold the cover of the lock in place, should be snug. I'd say go ahead and try the lock WITH THE DOOR OPEN. Worst case scenario is you won't be able to unlock it to close the door. If help's already scheduled, what've you got to lose. You can't make it worse if the door doesn't get locked and you don't "caveman force" anything. The guy they called can't do anything until he gets the work order from Liberty, either by fax or e-mail. They also may be sending him a new lock to take along just in case, and that takes another day for Fed Ex to deliver. Then he has to fit you into his schedule. There's typically a 2-4 day turnaround time between when you call, and the service guy shows up. If I didn't have a current turkey hunting tag for zone 7 that I'm gonna try and use this weekend, I'd take a "road-trip" down there tomorrow. Also making that not possible, tomorrow is my 62nd birthday, Sunday is mother's day, and we've got one daughter coming from Green Bay, one from Farmington MN, and each is bringing two grandkids with, for the weekend. The kids wanna go fishing.
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Got home, tried 3 times with the door open, all 3 times it opened with no problems. I enter the combo, start to feel the lock retract around 95, and when fully open, rests at 86.
ETA: popped off the back cover. lol...I see exactly what you mean by the internal mechanism resting against the lock. Shit... I wonder if that was the case. Relocker is completely intact, as it should be. Red bearing grease on the plate surfaces. Watching the mech with the door open, it definitly starts to retract the internal bolt at 95. So the only thing I can figure...for some reason weight of the door or warpage was causing pressure on the lock bolt itself. Now i feel like kind of a dumbass having a locksmith come out here for that. Should I cancel, or swallow my pride and let the expert verify my diagnosis?
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Quoted:
Got home, tried 3 times with the door open, all 3 times it opened with no problems. I enter the combo, start to feel the lock retract around 95, and when fully open, rests at 86. ETA: popped off the back cover. lol...I see exactly what you mean by the internal mechanism resting against the lock. Shit... I wonder if that was the case. Relocker is completely intact, as it should be. Red bearing grease on the plate surfaces. Watching the mech with the door open, it definitly starts to retract the internal bolt at 95. So the only thing I can figure...for some reason weight of the door or warpage was causing pressure on the lock bolt itself. Now i feel like kind of a dumbass having a locksmith come out here for that. Should I cancel, or swallow my pride and let the expert verify my diagnosis?
http://i48.tinypic.com/ojm14i.jpg If it works fine with the door open, then something is blocking the carrier bar and door bolts from fully extending when the door's closed. I'd let the guy come out and check it over, if it's not too much trouble for your schedule. It's a warranty issue, right? No cost to you if it is. It shouldn't be happening, but I have seen it many times. In some of these situations, I've taken a Dremel tool and widened the slot in the carrier bar that the lock bolt fits into.... but those were really bad examples of this. But that can be a real pain in the ass to do. You've got to either remove the lock to get at it, or in some cases you must remove the carrier bar assembly to get at the slot. This situation really causes havoc with some electronic locks, as the small motor that retracts the lock bolt upon opening, isn't strong enough to overcome the side pressure from a carrier bar pushing against it. I've had "locked-out" calls, where all I had to do to get it open was put extra force on the handle toward the closed position to relieve the side pressure on the bolt so the motor could move it. The last one I encountered like this, was a real nice safe, with a fancy paint job, etc. It was a "special order" from Liberty, with a bionic thumb-print option.... and it just would not open. I fiddled with it a few minutes, then set the door handle in just the right position, and it opened right up. It had a rack/pinion driven bolt works, and the owner was able to "over-close" it, and bind up the lock bolt. I backed it off just a hair, and she opened right up. I'm glad I did not have to drill that one... it was absolutely beautiful! I just opened up the slot for the lock bolt so it could not happen again. I think your problem has been successfully diagnosed., and it shouldn't be too hard to solve it. 
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