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Posted: 4/28/2015 3:49:05 PM EDT
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Someone point me in the right direction here, cause I can't seem to find anything in writing on this.
The short of it is that I had a customer, that didn't seem to understand the questions being asked of him on the 4473, who was given the answers to questions 11a-l by his brother. His brother claimed the customer was illiterate, yet the customer had completed the first half of the form by himself, so he clearly could read. I know that this is a no-go, yet I can't seem to find where it's spelled out in black and white by the ATF. Can anyone help me out here? |
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Me- "Please read the questions and anwser them"
--answers something wrong--- Me- "are you xyz?" customer "yes/no" Me- "then you may want to read the questions again." customer " damn I messed this one up can I fix it?" Me " yea but only one, fix it cross out the wrong one and inital " --they screw up again then denied/cancled form some people get nervous, some are just that stupid. |
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It's not OK for a customer's brother/friend/mother, etc. to provide answers to questions. It's OK (in my opinion) for someone to READ the questions to the buyer. I've done it myself when customer's indicate (either explicitly or subtly) that their reading/comprehension skills are lacking. Again, I'm just talking about reading the text to them. If they're confused about the meaning of the question, I'll either provide a basic answer ("adjudicated" means a judge or a court of law") or read the instructions for that question to them. I never tell them how to answer the questions, but I'm perfectly fine with reading or explaining the question so that they can answer.
In the case of a buyer who is truly illiterate and can neither read or write, it's OK to have someone else (not you or an employee) fill out the form and have two people (again, not employees) witness the form. The customer still needs to provide the answers to the questions, though. No coaching. Question 1. Transferee’s Full Name:
The buyer must personally complete Section A of this form and certify (sign) that the answers are true, correct, and complete. However, if the buyer is unable to read and/or write, the answers (other than the signature) may be completed by another person, excluding the seller. Two persons (other than the seller) must then sign as witnesses to the buyer’s answers and signature. |
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Quoted:
Me- "Please read the questions and anwser them" --answers something wrong--- Me- "are you xyz?" customer "yes/no" Me- "then you may want to read the questions again." customer " damn I messed this one up can I fix it?" Me " yea but only one, fix it cross out the wrong one and inital " --they screw up again then denied/cancled form some people get nervous, some are just that stupid. Your shop, your rules? Or did some IOI provide guidance on this? |
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Quoted:
Your shop, your rules? Or did some IOI provide guidance on this? Quoted:
Quoted:
Me- "Please read the questions and anwser them" --answers something wrong--- Me- "are you xyz?" customer "yes/no" Me- "then you may want to read the questions again." customer " damn I messed this one up can I fix it?" Me " yea but only one, fix it cross out the wrong one and inital " --they screw up again then denied/cancled form some people get nervous, some are just that stupid. Your shop, your rules? Or did some IOI provide guidance on this? Not my shop (yet Aug; but I have had my FFL since January) but shop rules. Have only had 3 complience checks in 20+ years and get requests for traces all the time with no additional questions from ATF or the state police. The reasoning is that you can make a mistake, but if you can't read and undertand that form (or have someone read it to you to understand) then you really might not be "smart enough" to have a gun. We do have some people that come in and answer the form "no" to are you the actual buyer and no to #12 (incorrectly) and ask them the question and they say they messed up let them try again and they answer it "no" again to the actual buyer question then I tell them to take a hike. (again unless it seems liegitimate. We are near a couple of major cities and straw purchases have happened and been reported to the now disbanded taskforce that would give it a week then knock on the door and ask to see the gun.) |
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Quoted:
The reasoning is that you can make a mistake, but if you can't read and undertand that form (or have someone read it to you to understand) then you really might not be "smart enough" to have a gun. We do have some people that come in and answer the form "no" to are you the actual buyer and no to #12 (incorrectly) and ask them the question and they say they messed up let them try again and they answer it "no" again to the actual buyer question then I tell them to take a hike. (again unless it seems liegitimate. We are near a couple of major cities and straw purchases have happened and been reported to the now disbanded taskforce that would give it a week then knock on the door and ask to see the gun.) I guess I missed that part of the 2nd Amendment or the Gun Control Act that says only smart people can have the means to defend their home, property, loved ones and country. I want to be up to speed. Can you point me to the page number of the Firearms Regulations Reference Guide where that's discussed? |
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Well I can read them the questions, tell them where they messed up, but it is not my responsibility to spoon feed people that can't or won't take the time to comprehend that the law as it is written requires a form to be filled out correctly before they can purchase a firearm.
If you want to hand hold every person through it be my guest, but I don't have the time nor the patience to explain that they are the actual buyer...... That crosses a line with me that yes you have a right to a fire arm and you should be responsible with that firearm, but if you can't fill out the simple form then maybe you should educate yourself before trying to buy said firearm. Will I give flyers for a local instructor if you don't know about guns,yes. Will I tell you it is probably in your best interest not to buy today if you aren't sure, yes. Will I recomend that you go and shoot a whole mess of either friend's or rental guns before buying,yes ( I don't even have a range on site but my competition does) will I walk you through what to fill out and what is needed, yes. But I draw the line at teaching every person that walks through the door that they have to fill the form out correctly for 4-5 times. You can do as you wish but I will not change what has worked in this store for 20 years. It works, bad people still straw purchase, good people learn from instructors and I still sell guns. ATF doesn't visit and I don't have anything but clerical errors when they do. |
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Quoted:
Someone point me in the right direction here, cause I can't seem to find anything in writing on this. The short of it is that I had a customer, that didn't seem to understand the questions being asked of him on the 4473, who was given the answers to questions 11a-l by his brother. His brother claimed the customer was illiterate, yet the customer had completed the first half of the form by himself, so he clearly could read. I know that this is a no-go, yet I can't seem to find where it's spelled out in black and white by the ATF. Can anyone help me out here? Reading the directions on the form is always an option. |
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Quoted: Someone point me in the right direction here, cause I can't seem to find anything in writing on this. The short of it is that I had a customer, that didn't seem to understand the questions being asked of him on the 4473, who was given the answers to questions 11a-l by his brother. His brother claimed the customer was illiterate, yet the customer had completed the first half of the form by himself, so he clearly could read. I know that this is a no-go, yet I can't seem to find where it's spelled out in black and white by the ATF. Can anyone help me out here? |
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