Armory Sponsor
Posted: 1/28/2010 7:59:31 PM EDT
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I am looking to apply for my FFL in Charleston, WV. I have the application, have the fingerprint cards completed, and have 2 passport photos made and ready. I have also applied with the state for a business license (and went ahead and got an LLC) which has been approved and completed.
Unfortunately, my house is zoned Residential R4 and is in the city limits of Charleston, WV. I have called a local ATF agent to ask if this would be a problem (which I suspected it would be) and he said it would be a problem. Because of the language on the level 1 home based business exception I do not qualify (no sales, no deliveries etc) I can apply for a conditional use permit. The conditional use permit involved a ~$126 fee and some paperwork. Then about a month later I would have to appear for a hearing before the zoning/planning commission. Everything I have read and seen indicates that many Charleston officials are anti-gun and anti 2nd amendment even though WV is predominantly pro 2nd. Has anyone else run into this? I have spoken to a very sharp attorney who incredibly knowledgeable about firearms laws in this state. He has not indicated whether I have a remote chance of being approved and comes with high rates and a very high retainer fee to help guide me through the mess. Would the attorney be throwing money away? Am I wasting time and money to apply for the conditional use permit? (my gut says yes but I have no experience and do not know anyone who has gone through this in this area). Is it time to look at a location other than my basement for this business? Any feedback is much appreciated. |
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I paid around $400 to get rezoned....actually to get a variance to sell guns. I'm out in the country so that helped. Took months, meetings, plus we had a neighbor show up to complain, we had to get registered letters sent to any property owner within 200 yards of mine @ $6 each, notary, court house for copy of deed, etc,etc. ATF wouldn't come out for the interview till we had it in writing. ATF kept threatening to terminate application because it was "open" too long also. I would send off paperwork if you think there is a chance you can get zoned, and work on it while you wait. Took us 7 months to even hear from ATF after we sent out app, so you have time. we assumed because we were zoned "agricultural" and there was nothing saying we couldn't run a business we were good...atf need it in writing, end of story.
Good Luck! 
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You don't need a firearm attorney, you need a local land-use attorney who is used to dealing with the city's planning commission and zoning office.
Also, based on what I saw in VA when I dealt with land use/zoning issues... sometimes who you pick as an attorney is important due to local politics. Before even submitting the application I'd suggest you attend a few commission hearings to see how they're run, watch the attorneys in action, pick up some of their business cards, etc. They may also give you an idea of whether or not the commission would approve the application. Also, if you have any neighbors who are hard-core anti's or Obama-bots you can probably forget it, as the folks surrounding you are usually notified by the city once you submit your application. If they object, given that you're in anti-gun Charleston, you're ****ed. |
| We had to mail the neighbors to let them know, one showed up, but the head guy on the board said they will listen to them but the decision is up to the board. When we called the office and told the guy what we were planning to do he was very helpful and walked us through everything. He was a duck hunter so we wasn't afraid of firearms. I would just call and see how well you are received, you never know. |
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Because of the language on the level 1 home based business exception I do not qualify (no sales, no deliveries etc)
what exactly did the language say? you can do business and not do sales or deliveries at the location. you could say you are doing a mail order business that drop ships everything. |
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Because of the language on the level 1 home based business exception I do not qualify (no sales, no deliveries etc)
what exactly did the language say? you can do business and not do sales or deliveries at the location. you could say you are doing a mail order business that drop ships everything. Planning Department: Application for Level 1 Home-Based Business:
Level 1 Home-based businesses shall not be permitted to: 1. Sell articles or products on the premises. 2. Generate any additional pedestrian or vehicular traffic not normally associated with the residential use of the dwelling. 3. Receive deliveries to or from the dwelling, except by the occupant, U.S. Mail or by courier, and by no customers or clients. 4. Display signs for business use. 5. Have employees who are not members of the resident dwelling unit. 4. and 5. are not issues. 1-3...seem to be. You think if everything drop ships I am in the clear? |
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Because of the language on the level 1 home based business exception I do not qualify (no sales, no deliveries etc)
what exactly did the language say? you can do business and not do sales or deliveries at the location. you could say you are doing a mail order business that drop ships everything. Planning Department: Application for Level 1 Home-Based Business:
Level 1 Home-based businesses shall not be permitted to: 1. Sell articles or products on the premises. 2. Generate any additional pedestrian or vehicular traffic not normally associated with the residential use of the dwelling. 3. Receive deliveries to or from the dwelling, except by the occupant, U.S. Mail or by courier, and by no customers or clients. 4. Display signs for business use. 5. Have employees who are not members of the resident dwelling unit. 4. and 5. are not issues. 1-3...seem to be. You think if everything drop ships I am in the clear? you can be fine with all of those. you can drop ship everything so that none of those apply to you or you can also have a storage location where you do all your shipping/recieving from (you just cant do transfers there) when its time for the interview just have that list ready and an explination or multimple explinations as to why those things do not apply to you. |
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Wow that stinks! I know that all sales have to be done at the place of business (your home) per batf rules. Only exception is a approved gun show. or do mail order sales where you ship the product (or have it drop shipped) to another FFl and then your client gets it then |
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Wow that stinks! I know that all sales have to be done at the place of business (your home) per batf rules. Only exception is a approved gun show. or do mail order sales where you ship the product (or have it drop shipped) to another FFl and then your client gets it then I don't see what the point is of that? No trying to sound rude I just don't see that happening. Someone wants a gun, they buy from dealer "A" just to have it shipped to dealer "B"? They would just buy from dealer "B" who could talk with them in person, show them the gun, etc. Right? Also I don't see the BATF going for that either. The main concern they had with us was how we were going to advertise, how many guns do we plan to sell, etc. I wouldn't think they would even come out for the interview if we said just "mail order" and "drop ship". The zoning board guy received several phone calls from our examiner before they even came out to the house. I hope you get your license, try to find a loop hole, or something...I just know that the BATF wouldn't even consider us till we had our zoning variance. |
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Well selling a gun to somebody mail order is fine, you have the product come through your location and then you ship to a transfer FFL that the client chooses, its not unusual :)
Go to our web site, buy a gun and unless you're coming in for local pickup we ship to an FFL near you and you transfer. |
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Wow that stinks! I know that all sales have to be done at the place of business (your home) per batf rules. Only exception is a approved gun show. or do mail order sales where you ship the product (or have it drop shipped) to another FFl and then your client gets it then I don't see what the point is of that? No trying to sound rude I just don't see that happening. Someone wants a gun, they buy from dealer "A" just to have it shipped to dealer "B"? They would just buy from dealer "B" who could talk with them in person, show them the gun, etc. Right? Also I don't see the BATF going for that either. The main concern they had with us was how we were going to advertise, how many guns do we plan to sell, etc. I wouldn't think they would even come out for the interview if we said just "mail order" and "drop ship". The zoning board guy received several phone calls from our examiner before they even came out to the house. I hope you get your license, try to find a loop hole, or something...I just know that the BATF wouldn't even consider us till we had our zoning variance. You may not see the point of drop shipping, mail order or e-commerce but it's the sign of the times. A lot of the traditional brick and mortar gun shops are going away and being replaced by the big box stores. It many cases big box stores do not provide good customer service nor do they know the products they sell. People realize they can sit at home and do all their shopping from the PC and not deal with the traffic, crowded stores, and idiot sales people with attitudes. 70% of my part time gun business is online. The other 30% is transfers from people who are buying guns online via auctions, drop shipping and and mail order! Another advantage of buying on line is that in most cases the buyer does not pay sales tax and online retailers can factor this into their prices. I average 15-20 transfers per week (Dec 09) I did 200 transfers in 4 weeks. It's a huge money making cycle requiring little or no overhead. This is exactly what I proposed in my business plan to the zoning board and the ATF when I had my interview and received my 01 license in 2 months after mailing the application. |
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Wow that stinks! I know that all sales have to be done at the place of business (your home) per batf rules. Only exception is a approved gun show. or do mail order sales where you ship the product (or have it drop shipped) to another FFl and then your client gets it then I don't see what the point is of that? No trying to sound rude I just don't see that happening. Someone wants a gun, they buy from dealer "A" just to have it shipped to dealer "B"? They would just buy from dealer "B" who could talk with them in person, show them the gun, etc. Right? Also I don't see the BATF going for that either. The main concern they had with us was how we were going to advertise, how many guns do we plan to sell, etc. I wouldn't think they would even come out for the interview if we said just "mail order" and "drop ship". The zoning board guy received several phone calls from our examiner before they even came out to the house. I hope you get your license, try to find a loop hole, or something...I just know that the BATF wouldn't even consider us till we had our zoning variance. you dont see the point???? look at all the companies that sponcer this site, lots of them do a lot of mail order business. take JSE surplus or AIMsurplus for example. i dont believe they do much storefront business compared to the mailorder stuff they do. i dont even think JSE surplus does storefront sales at all for that matter. the ATF will have no problem if you tell them you plan not to do any sales at your location and that you plan to only do transfers/sales to other FFLs. |
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That sounds good, got to have a lot of cash for that to work if not it's a pipe dream. If somebody had a ton of cash to start up something like that, wouldn't they just buy/rent a building that's zoned? If you are buying say 2 or 3 or even 10 @ a time do you really think you will be getting ffl's to buy from you? If your not marking up the product you will just be losing out on shipping. So let's say a pistol I can get for $375, you could offer it to me for $395, once you add $10 shipping and $10 profit, which is about the cheapest handgun shipping rate.
So no I don't get it. If someone had a lot of cash the lawyer that incorporated the business would file all the paperwork in the town/city that allowed the gun store/wholesale set up. |
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That sounds good, got to have a lot of cash for that to work if not it's a pipe dream. If somebody had a ton of cash to start up something like that, wouldn't they just buy/rent a building that's zoned? If you are buying say 2 or 3 or even 10 @ a time do you really think you will be getting ffl's to buy from you? If your not marking up the product you will just be losing out on shipping. So let's say a pistol I can get for $375, you could offer it to me for $395, once you add $10 shipping and $10 profit, which is about the cheapest handgun shipping rate. So no I don't get it. If someone had a lot of cash the lawyer that incorporated the business would file all the paperwork in the town/city that allowed the gun store/wholesale set up. The FFL is NOT buying the gun from the other FFL...the consumer is buying the gun from the FFL (online auction for example). The selling FFL is then sending it to the consumer / buyer's local FFL person for transfer. E-commerce does not require "a lot of cash" to get off the ground. |
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So a guy buys a gun online from dealer @ auction. Ships to ffl that "we" are talking about, the buyer can't go to his house so then in turn ships to one he can because of the zoning laws. That's not going to happen. Drop shipping is fine, but the home ffl would have to buy in super bulk to beat what every other ffl can buy @ same cost, guess I will never understand.
So take my business for example, we hold an ffl, why would we buy a gun from anyone who is buying @ the same place I can buy from, just to have him mark it up??? Not going to happen unless he was a wholesaler which ain't happening in a R4 zoning area. |
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So a guy buys a gun online from dealer @ auction. Ships to ffl that "we" are talking about, the buyer can't go to his house so then in turn ships to one he can because of the zoning laws. That's not going to happen. Drop shipping is fine, but the home ffl would have to buy in super bulk to beat what every other ffl can buy @ same cost, guess I will never understand. So take my business for example, we hold an ffl, why would we buy a gun from anyone who is buying @ the same place I can buy from, just to have him mark it up??? Not going to happen unless he was a wholesaler which ain't happening in a R4 zoning area. Never mind...I give up. It appears Texas is much simpler!!! 
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combat45acp, if you dont get it then you must be really clueless when it comes to business. there are various ways of making money as an FFL. you can cater to different markets including other FFLs that's cute. 
So "a FFL" can't receive packages to the house per the zoning laws....so some FFL is going to drop ship for our business? You couldn't do an online auction without being a turd, if I or anyone orders a firearm on auction, we #1 expect to have it ship out right away, #2 expect you to have that firearm. #3 expect to get it @ a good price...so that would rule out ALL FFL's that had a clue! Then say a local guy bought it, he would expect to drop by and get the gun, not pay to have it transfered People catch on really quick to "drop shippers" even if they don't own a business, take ebay for example, you win an auction, product is out @ supplier they wait super long for product they "thought" you had...word gets out really quick and nobody buys from them. I could only imagine it being a firearm that you could order from the SAME wholesaler at the SAME cost, unless like I said you had a ton of money to buy @ bulk! How the heck could any new FFL cater to other FFL's if he didn't buy @ bulk which involves a ton of money??? I can see this thread is WAY off topic, to which I apologize. I wish anyone and everyone luck with their business endeavors. I must be "clueless", even with the fact that I, not some lawyer I paid incorporated my own business, not a LLC, as president I do my own taxes, minutes, hiring, etc, etc. and by the way occasionally we make a profit. 
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combat45acp, if you dont get it then you must be really clueless when it comes to business. there are various ways of making money as an FFL. you can cater to different markets including other FFLs You couldn't do an online auction without being a turd, if I or anyone orders a firearm on auction, we #1 expect to have it ship out right away, #2 expect you to have that firearm. #3 expect to get it @ a good price...so that would rule out ALL FFL's that had a clue! Then say a local guy bought it, he would expect to drop by and get the gun, not pay to have it transfered People catch on really quick to "drop shippers" even if they don't own a business, take ebay for example, you win an auction, product is out @ supplier they wait super long for product they "thought" you had...word gets out really quick and nobody buys from them. I could only imagine it being a firearm that you could order from the SAME wholesaler at the SAME cost, unless like I said you had a ton of money to buy @ bulk! the things in bold are valid points but it only applies if you dont tell people up front how you operate. if you dont do onsite transfers you should state it in your listings, if you are drop shipping the products or if you dont have control of teh shipping timeframe you should state somthing about it in the listing. this is just good business practices to go by. if you leave out a lot of information and piss people off then word will get out about you but if you are open up front about how you are doing busines then people know what they are getting into from the start. thee are good ways of doing business and bad ways of doing business. thsi applies to standard gunstores with FFLs and it applys to people who do drop shipping and other more nontradational sales methods. there is a place for both types as long as you are good at what you do. |
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How the heck could any new FFL cater to other FFL's if he didn't buy @ bulk which involves a ton of money???
he could have access to information that the other FFL does not have. he could have a source for somthing the other FFl needs and he can then sell it to him. lots of FFLs buy from other FFLs |
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I will do my best to keep everyone apprised. I am pursuing multiple options....some are more more optimal than others but here they are:
1. As suggested I am visiting the planning and zoning commission (next hearing is on Feb. 11th). This is just to get a feel for what my chances are of getting a conditional use permit. 2. I have a potential non-zoned location that I could run the business out of. 3. I have a Realtor looking at properties as they come available. 4. This morning my wife called me and a friend is selling 40ish acres outside of town.... Again, I will keep this thread posted of my progress in hopes this is helpful to someone else. |
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Update!
Due to scheduling I missed some hearings and attempted to go yesterday morning, but when I arrived the hearing had been canceled. I did finally get to talk to someone who is on staff for the City and after giving her all the information of my sporting good's enterprise. She said while she could not guarantee anything, she did not see any red flags and it would probably be up to my neighbors. All of my neighbors within 250 feet of my property will be contacted by the city once I submit the application. (I will be contacting them first out of courtesy). If my neighbors were negative towards it, than the hearing would probably not go in my favor, and vice versa. She also offered to look over my application before I submit it officially and make suggestions and or help me get anything I missed. I will do my best to continue to keep everyone apprised. |
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Well, I promised to keep the boards apprised....
Tomorrow, Thursday, April 22nd at 8:30 AM I have my conditional use permit hearing. All neighbors within 250 feet of my property line have received registered letters from the city informing them of the hearing.I have knocked on each of those doors and spoken with most of those neighbors. Everything was going great and I thought I was going to slip under the radar until yesterday. Most of the neighbors either do not care of are overwhelmingly positive. However, I do have one who is against any business level 2 conditional use, level 1 home based, and based on their comments even home offices. It is my understanding they will be showing up at the hearing to voice their opinion tomorrow. There is a sign in my yard and will be until just after the hearing. I have a Charleston city councilman who lives further into the neighborhood that I have called and essentially gotten this: I am not anti-gun, I won guns and have hunted, but I'm not sure this is properly suited for a neighborhood. Almost sounds like riding the fence to me....for and against in the same breath? I found out today that those who cannot come and have not called or written positive letters on my behalf, do not have to deliver those themselves. I have a typed letter/petition that I hope to get a few neighbors to sign to balance the negative neighbor who shows up. The city has already told me they will be recommending (per influence of the councilman I am sure) that the variance pass with an exception that does not allow the sale of "firearms or hunting knives". My application is for "sporting goods". If the decision tomorrow is not favorable I am still trying to figure out my options. Thus far here they are in no particular order: 1. Re-locate the business (my home) outside of city limits. 2. Appeal the decision to the circuit court within 30 days of the decision. 3. Apply for a level 1 home based business and only do e-commerce and gun shows. (I don't like this one). Wish me luck! Say a prayer! I'm going to need it. |
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If the decision tomorrow is not favorable I am still trying to figure out my options. Thus far here they are in no particular order: 1. Re-locate the business (my home) outside of city limits. 2. Appeal the decision to the circuit court within 30 days of the decision. 3. Apply for a level 1 home based business and only do e-commerce and gun shows. (I don't like this one). Wish me luck! Say a prayer! I'm going to need it. Done. And I can tell you right now, #2 is going to be a lot more expensive than #1, even in the current RE market. |
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Conditional Use Permit Approved. However, it is restricted to no firearms and no hunting knives. I will contact the office so I can have the exact wording later.
Hunting Knives? I still don't know where this came from....what differentiates a hunting knife from another type of knife? More importantly who cares about knives? Sounds a lot like the "assault weapons" description. The more I think about it, I'm not sure the level one home based is an option anymore. The city is now aware of me, and that won't fly. The remaining two options are now to file an appeal with circuit court or to relocate. I agree Bubbles...the cost of filing an appeal is of concern. I am considering re-locating the business/my home outside of city limits...but that has its hassles and costs too. |
| I thought zoning was going to be a problem living in NY but after talking to the county and the town it looks like my application should go smooth. The county doesn't have any requirements for gun shops and my town has no zoning so all I need to do is to file my LLC this week and then submit my FFL application. |
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I thought zoning was going to be a problem living in NY but after talking to the county and the town it looks like my application should go smooth. The county doesn't have any requirements for gun shops and my town has no zoning so all I need to do is to file my LLC this week and then submit my FFL application. GL Rich. I just passed my interview this afternoon. Should have the FFL within a week to 1 month according to the agent. |
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I thought zoning was going to be a problem living in NY but after talking to the county and the town it looks like my application should go smooth. The county doesn't have any requirements for gun shops and my town has no zoning so all I need to do is to file my LLC this week and then submit my FFL application. GL Rich. I just passed my interview this afternoon. Should have the FFL within a week to 1 month according to the agent. What type of questions does the interviewer ask? |
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I thought zoning was going to be a problem living in NY but after talking to the county and the town it looks like my application should go smooth. The county doesn't have any requirements for gun shops and my town has no zoning so all I need to do is to file my LLC this week and then submit my FFL application. GL Rich. I just passed my interview this afternoon. Should have the FFL within a week to 1 month according to the agent. What type of questions does the interviewer ask? Your business intentions, intended clientele, means of advertising, etc, etc. Mainly they will review regulations and record keeping. It's not really a matter of "passing." And for the 2nd time, it's not an agent who comes out. It's an Industry Operations Investigator. |
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I thought zoning was going to be a problem living in NY but after talking to the county and the town it looks like my application should go smooth. The county doesn't have any requirements for gun shops and my town has no zoning so all I need to do is to file my LLC this week and then submit my FFL application. GL Rich. I just passed my interview this afternoon. Should have the FFL within a week to 1 month according to the agent. What type of questions does the interviewer ask? Your business intentions, intended clientele, means of advertising, etc, etc. Mainly they will review regulations and record keeping. It's not really a matter of "passing." And for the 2nd time, it's not an agent who comes out. It's an Industry Operations Investigator. Do industry operations investigators have ID + badge? You maybe right... They mainly review the rules....I think the reality of it is you pass or fail before the interview. She did ask questions and allowed me to ask questions as well. |
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I thought zoning was going to be a problem living in NY but after talking to the county and the town it looks like my application should go smooth. The county doesn't have any requirements for gun shops and my town has no zoning so all I need to do is to file my LLC this week and then submit my FFL application. GL Rich. I just passed my interview this afternoon. Should have the FFL within a week to 1 month according to the agent. What type of questions does the interviewer ask? Your business intentions, intended clientele, means of advertising, etc, etc. Mainly they will review regulations and record keeping. It's not really a matter of "passing." And for the 2nd time, it's not an agent who comes out. It's an Industry Operations Investigator. Do industry operations investigators have ID + badge? You maybe right... They mainly review the rules....I think the reality of it is you pass or fail before the interview. She did ask questions and allowed me to ask questions as well. They have ID, not a badge per se |
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I thought zoning was going to be a problem living in NY but after talking to the county and the town it looks like my application should go smooth. The county doesn't have any requirements for gun shops and my town has no zoning so all I need to do is to file my LLC this week and then submit my FFL application. GL Rich. I just passed my interview this afternoon. Should have the FFL within a week to 1 month according to the agent. What type of questions does the interviewer ask? Your business intentions, intended clientele, means of advertising, etc, etc. Mainly they will review regulations and record keeping. It's not really a matter of "passing." And for the 2nd time, it's not an agent who comes out. It's an Industry Operations Investigator. Do industry operations investigators have ID + badge? You maybe right... They mainly review the rules....I think the reality of it is you pass or fail before the interview. She did ask questions and allowed me to ask questions as well. They have ID, not a badge per se She definitely had a badge.../shrug I didn't see a gun, but I think she had one in her purse or on her ankle.... |
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I thought zoning was going to be a problem living in NY but after talking to the county and the town it looks like my application should go smooth. The county doesn't have any requirements for gun shops and my town has no zoning so all I need to do is to file my LLC this week and then submit my FFL application. GL Rich. I just passed my interview this afternoon. Should have the FFL within a week to 1 month according to the agent. What type of questions does the interviewer ask? Your business intentions, intended clientele, means of advertising, etc, etc. Mainly they will review regulations and record keeping. It's not really a matter of "passing." And for the 2nd time, it's not an agent who comes out. It's an Industry Operations Investigator. Do industry operations investigators have ID + badge? You maybe right... They mainly review the rules....I think the reality of it is you pass or fail before the interview. She did ask questions and allowed me to ask questions as well. They have ID, not a badge per se She definitely had a badge.../shrug I didn't see a gun, but I think she had one in her purse or on her ankle.... IOI's are bookeepers/accountant types, not enforcement agents. If she had a badge and gun she was not an IOI. Read about the differences here: http://www.atf.gov/careers/ |
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