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Posted: 10/9/2016 11:36:37 PM EDT
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Does anyone know whether or not STG-556 E4 barrels were button cut or hammer forged? I found 3 on line articles from gun rags/blogs that say "like Steyr, MSAR decided to use a hammer forged, chrome lined barrel..." But found an article & complaints about the "sloppy button cut rifling."
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Quoted: Fun Fact: Only every other rifle was tested with a single proof load, the other half got no proof load at all  Quoted: Quoted: Fun fact: the barrels were also tested by firing multiple proof loads but without follow-up MPI.  Fun Fact: Only every other rifle was tested with a single proof load, the other half got no proof load at all LOL! I just reviewed my info from a previous MSAR Engineer, one of your old co-workers, and he did state what you said, but he also relayed that in some cases two proofs were fired before boxing it up for shipping. Tony M. was quoted as saying "If it didn't fail with 2 proofs, it won't for a long time."  |
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LOL! I just reviewed my info from a previous MSAR Engineer, one of your old co-workers, and he did state what you said, but he also relayed that in some cases two proofs were fired before boxing it up for shipping. Tony M. was quoted as saying "If it didn't fail with 2 proofs, it won't for a long time."
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Fun fact: the barrels were also tested by firing multiple proof loads but without follow-up MPI.
Fun Fact: Only every other rifle was tested with a single proof load, the other half got no proof load at all LOL! I just reviewed my info from a previous MSAR Engineer, one of your old co-workers, and he did state what you said, but he also relayed that in some cases two proofs were fired before boxing it up for shipping. Tony M. was quoted as saying "If it didn't fail with 2 proofs, it won't for a long time."
Yeah, we only went to two proof loads after I started shattering bolts during test firing because of heat treating issues 
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Quoted: Yeah, we only went to two proof loads after I started shattering bolts during test firing because of heat treating issues Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fun fact: the barrels were also tested by firing multiple proof loads but without follow-up MPI. Fun Fact: Only every other rifle was tested with a single proof load, the other half got no proof load at all LOL! I just reviewed my info from a previous MSAR Engineer, one of your old co-workers, and he did state what you said, but he also relayed that in some cases two proofs were fired before boxing it up for shipping. Tony M. was quoted as saying "If it didn't fail with 2 proofs, it won't for a long time." Yeah, we only went to two proof loads after I started shattering bolts during test firing because of heat treating issues I thought that all got ironed out prior to the E4's? |
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I thought that all got ironed out prior to the E4's? Quoted:
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Fun fact: the barrels were also tested by firing multiple proof loads but without follow-up MPI.
Fun Fact: Only every other rifle was tested with a single proof load, the other half got no proof load at all LOL! I just reviewed my info from a previous MSAR Engineer, one of your old co-workers, and he did state what you said, but he also relayed that in some cases two proofs were fired before boxing it up for shipping. Tony M. was quoted as saying "If it didn't fail with 2 proofs, it won't for a long time."
Yeah, we only went to two proof loads after I started shattering bolts during test firing because of heat treating issues I thought that all got ironed out prior to the E4's? Broken extractors is the issue I think you're remembering. Shattered bolts happened within my last 2 weeks before I got laid off in July 09. We had been building E4s for some time at that point. No shit, I had at least ten test fires end with catastrophically broken bolts. Pulled the charging handle after the proof load and all seven locking lugs fell out like busted teeth. I should have said fuck the rules and taken my own pics, it was really something to see and I consider it lucky no one was hurt in the process. |
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Since you're here X-ile, what's the most interesting catostrophic failure you've seen in an MSAR either during testing or from a customer return? The broken bolts would certainly be number one, but there were a few others that make the grade. 1. Best runner up is the case of a rifle shipped out to the Titusville FL (I think) PD for evaluation. It came back in a week with a complaint that the action was stuck shut. When we finally got it apart, we found that the right hand thrust piece on the bolt carrier (the part the gas piston hits) was SMASHED so badly by the piston that it resembled an empty ice cream cone. That didn't happen in one shot, and I have no clue how the poor thing kept operating long enough for it to get that way. Eventually the cause was traced to the thrust piece NOT BEING HEAT TREATED AT ALL Turned out this was just the tip of the iceberg, and over the following weeks we received more reports of mangled thrust pieces. I think it was about 100 in all. In the end it was found out that a certain "privileged individual" in the company grabbed a run of freshly machined thrust pieces right off the machine, bead blasted them, and brought them to the gun room for assembly during an all night crunch session. There used to be pics of a customer's rifle out there with a thrust piece bent into an S shape, but they seem to be gone now.
2. The AR magazine debacle. This happened after I was gone, but it's still notable. This was especially sour for me since I was the one that came up with the XM30 name (or X-Mag, since it has X's on the sides). Oddly enough, the three that I have worked perfectly for as long as I've had them. I'll see if I can think of more. Jagdkommando should be able to help out too, he handled most warranty service. |
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I have been told FNH made some barrels too. There is way to ID the FNH barrels but I forgot how. My E4 has one. I think it has to do with rings around the barrel. With all the issues people have had with their MSAR's I'm afraid to shoot it. Right. FNH barrels had two small rings around the chamber end, Green Mountain barrels had one ring, and Mossberg barrels had none. And on the subject of defects, before I started there, a barrel made it out to a customer with no rifling in it! I found a further two more during my time there, both were from Mossberg I also caught many Mossberg barrels with shitty chrome lining that looked more like a rifled sewer pipe than a barrel (but that wasn't MSAR's fault)
ETA: To get this thread back on track and answer OP's question, FNH barrels were hammer forged, the others were button rifled. |
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What about them? Quoted:
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Don't forget about the chambers... What about them? The tight chambers & the "stringent quality controls standards" that were followed when they were honed by a flex hone chucked in a hand drill while the barrel was held in the other hand. |
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I think it has to do with rings around the barrel. Right. FNH barrels had two small rings around the chamber end, Green Mountain barrels had one ring, and Mossberg barrels had none. do you have any pics/illustrations of these rings? If you were to PM me your email I could send a barrel pic if you'd look at it for me. Thanks. |
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The tight chambers & the "stringent quality controls standards" that were followed when they were honed by a flex hone chucked in a hand drill while the barrel was held in the other hand. Quoted:
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Don't forget about the chambers... What about them? The tight chambers & the "stringent quality controls standards" that were followed when they were honed by a flex hone chucked in a hand drill while the barrel was held in the other hand. OK Yeah, there were some tight chambers. Problem was, the policy for passing test fire was 2 initial loads without the gas regulator, then install regulator & piston and fire 8 shots for function. That's it. Ship it. We were never really allowed to investigate minor problems. As for the chamber honing, barrels were always held securely, not held by hand. And the flex hone was a purpose made made .556 chamber hone, not something from an auto parts store. As long as proper care was exercised while using it (not ramming it all the way into the throat and rifling) there's nothing wrong with honing a chamber that way. |
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I guess I've been extraordinarily lucky. After reading all of this stuff, I'd have expected my E4 would have literally fallen apart after pulling the trigger for the first time. I've probably put 2-3K rounds through it and I can't recall as much as a single issue of any kind. It doesn't get shot as much as many of my other guns, but 2-3K would seem, based on this thread, ample use to have witnessed some sort of significant failure. So far, nothing but "bang" every time I pull the trigger. Guess I'll just shoot it from time to time and see what happens. |
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I think it has to do with rings around the barrel. Right. FNH barrels had two small rings around the chamber end, Green Mountain barrels had one ring, and Mossberg barrels had none. do you have any pics/illustrations of these rings? If you were to PM me your email I could send a barrel pic if you'd look at it for me. Thanks. I would like to see a pick of the rings also. I had a barrel replaced because the chamber was too large, blew brass up so you could not size it. There is an archived thread about it somewhere. This was near the end when the barrel co. was not getting paid and were no barrels available. They took one from a "stock" rifle so the story went, I think i ended up with a Mossberg. Poor Jeff got stuck between me and the owner on this deal. He had no good way to go. |
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What does P/N 211 mean that laser engraved at the point of the laser-engraved dagger? Also there's 2X below the dagger blade.
I don't know if this is a/the "ring" but there is a definite change in the machining completely around the front end (exterior) of what appears to be the chamber area of the barrel, and the beginning of the finished portion of the rest of the barrel where the MSAR emblem is, with the dagger and P/N 211 on the opposite 180 deg. Both of my E4s have run fine. |
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Quoted: The broken bolts would certainly be number one, but there were a few others that make the grade. 1. Best runner up is the case of a rifle shipped out to the Titusville FL (I think) PD for evaluation. It came back in a week with a complaint that the action was stuck shut. When we finally got it apart, we found that the right hand thrust piece on the bolt carrier (the part the gas piston hits) was SMASHED so badly by the piston that it resembled an empty ice cream cone. That didn't happen in one shot, and I have no clue how the poor thing kept operating long enough for it to get that way. Eventually the cause was traced to the thrust piece NOT BEING HEAT TREATED AT ALL Turned out this was just the tip of the iceberg, and over the following weeks we received more reports of mangled thrust pieces. I think it was about 100 in all. In the end it was found out that a certain "privileged individual" in the company grabbed a run of freshly machined thrust pieces right off the machine, bead blasted them, and brought them to the gun room for assembly during an all night crunch session. There used to be pics of a customer's rifle out there with a thrust piece bent into an S shape, but they seem to be gone now.2. The AR magazine debacle. This happened after I was gone, but it's still notable. This was especially sour for me since I was the one that came up with the XM30 name (or X-Mag, since it has X's on the sides). Oddly enough, the three that I have worked perfectly for as long as I've had them. I'll see if I can think of more. Jagdkommando should be able to help out too, he handled most warranty service. Quoted: Quoted: Since you're here X-ile, what's the most interesting catostrophic failure you've seen in an MSAR either during testing or from a customer return? The broken bolts would certainly be number one, but there were a few others that make the grade. 1. Best runner up is the case of a rifle shipped out to the Titusville FL (I think) PD for evaluation. It came back in a week with a complaint that the action was stuck shut. When we finally got it apart, we found that the right hand thrust piece on the bolt carrier (the part the gas piston hits) was SMASHED so badly by the piston that it resembled an empty ice cream cone. That didn't happen in one shot, and I have no clue how the poor thing kept operating long enough for it to get that way. Eventually the cause was traced to the thrust piece NOT BEING HEAT TREATED AT ALL Turned out this was just the tip of the iceberg, and over the following weeks we received more reports of mangled thrust pieces. I think it was about 100 in all. In the end it was found out that a certain "privileged individual" in the company grabbed a run of freshly machined thrust pieces right off the machine, bead blasted them, and brought them to the gun room for assembly during an all night crunch session. There used to be pics of a customer's rifle out there with a thrust piece bent into an S shape, but they seem to be gone now.2. The AR magazine debacle. This happened after I was gone, but it's still notable. This was especially sour for me since I was the one that came up with the XM30 name (or X-Mag, since it has X's on the sides). Oddly enough, the three that I have worked perfectly for as long as I've had them. I'll see if I can think of more. Jagdkommando should be able to help out too, he handled most warranty service. |
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What does P/N 211 mean that laser engraved at the point of the laser-engraved dagger? Also there's 2X below the dagger blade. I don't know if this is a/the "ring" but there is a definite change in the machining completely around the front end (exterior) of what appears to be the chamber area of the barrel, and the beginning of the finished portion of the rest of the barrel where the MSAR emblem is, with the dagger and P/N 211 on the opposite 180 deg. Both of my E4s have run fine. P/N 211 is the part number for the 16" barrel. 20" was P/N 210, I think. The dagger logo is the proof mark, and 2X signifies that it was double proofed. Course that's all horseshit, as I explained above, in addition to no MPI inspection (or any inspection for that matter) afterwards. As far as the ID ring, that would be a narrow v-groove just forward of the chamber end, in the unpainted area. |
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P/N 211 is the part number for the 16" barrel. 20" was P/N 210, I think.. Quoted:
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What does P/N 211 mean that laser engraved at the point of the laser-engraved dagger? Also there's 2X below the dagger blade. I don't know if this is a/the "ring" but there is a definite change in the machining completely around the front end (exterior) of what appears to be the chamber area of the barrel, and the beginning of the finished portion of the rest of the barrel where the MSAR emblem is, with the dagger and P/N 211 on the opposite 180 deg. Both of my E4s have run fine. P/N 211 is the part number for the 16" barrel. 20" was P/N 210, I think.. Both my P/N 211 barrels are 20", and are early E4s.. Thx for the info. |
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Both my P/N 211 barrels are 20", and are early E4s.. Thx for the info. Quoted:
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What does P/N 211 mean that laser engraved at the point of the laser-engraved dagger? Also there's 2X below the dagger blade. I don't know if this is a/the "ring" but there is a definite change in the machining completely around the front end (exterior) of what appears to be the chamber area of the barrel, and the beginning of the finished portion of the rest of the barrel where the MSAR emblem is, with the dagger and P/N 211 on the opposite 180 deg. Both of my E4s have run fine. P/N 211 is the part number for the 16" barrel. 20" was P/N 210, I think.. Both my P/N 211 barrels are 20", and are early E4s.. Thx for the info. Eh, I guess I'm wrong on the P/N. I'll have a look at my 16" when I get home. ETA: Just looked at mine, no part number. It was originally serialized to special edition BLK00420 though, in place of the part #. (I built my own rifle from available parts, and barrel BLK00420 is a heavy UNFLUTED one, one the original purchaser was quite pissed about and demanded a fluted replacement )
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