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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 2020 Trigger Spring - AUG Hammerpack (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/16/2016 6:27:21 PM EDT
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What is the difference between the Steyr AUG trigger spring and the MSAR trigger spring?
The difference is the number of coils on the spring and the weight that the hammer packs break at. The Steyr AUG has a 9 coil spring and the MSAR has a 10 coil spring. The MSAR also has a roughly 1# lighter break. 
So you're probably wondering why I'm asking this question if I already know the answer. The person who invented the 2020 TSM and HTM hybrid hammerpack had some springs made to the MSAR spec., and they might be sold at Ratworx if everything works out for them. Price point might be in the $10 range, plus or minus a few dollars. I was told that with these new springs a factory hammerpack is brought down to roughly 6.5# trigger pull. With a factory hammerpack + TSM sear the weight is brought down to just under 6#. The point of this thread is that I have 8 of these springs coming my way (for free) and I'd like to give out a couple (as in 4). There's a small possibility I can get a couple more, but this is probably limited to just 4 for now. I already have 3 people that I'll be sending a spring to, in order to make sure they function correctly, reset without problems, no doubling, etc. If you would like to test one of these springs let me know. All I ask is that you feel so inclined to paypal me something like $1.50 to cover shipping that would be nice, but if not, no worries. ---------- Here's your disclaimer: If you want one of these, don't do dumb things and be careful. You are a guinea pig. ---------- With that said, if you want one of these to function test let me know. Please don't request one if you can't put it to use. Preferably you would actually use this and report back on your findings (either here or via IM or email if you prefer). And if you have a TSM to pair it with that would be nice. Also if you have a 9mm kit to use this with you are going to get bumped to the top of the list to test this out. Myself and two others have 9mm kits, but more experiences the better. If you have a standard NATO pack and would like to put one in, let me know. For everyone else wondering about these, I AM NOT SELLING THESE. If these eventually go up for sale, it will be through ratworx (in the AR15.COM industry section). I don't know when or if these will be for sale, but price range might be in the $10 range plus or minus a couple dollars. *updated thread title |
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Initial report from SMAUG (NATO trigger pack, 2020 Precision Sear).
Did a bunch of dry fires with the original trigger spring in place to serve as the base line. Trigger gauge used was a basic Timney Trigger spring gauge. Trigger pull measured between 8.7 to 8.5 lbs. Averaged in the 8.6ish range. Installed the new special spring. Did a bunch more dry fires. Trigger pull measured between 7 to 6.8 lbs. Average was just a hair under 7. It got 6.8ish if I really slowed down and feathered it during the last part of the pull. Still passes a standard function test just fine. Live fire may have to wait a week or two due to still working on fixing up the house. I don't imagine there will be any trouble, but as always, the proof is in the pudding. |
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Got mine in and started some dry fire testing in different configurations. About to leave for vacation, so probably won't live fire for 12 days, or so. First off, testing in all configurations dry fired normally with a normal reset, so no issues there. Used a RCBS analog trigger pull gauge that tops out at 8 pounds, so 8+ will mean it is above my ability to measure accurately. I did 5 pulls in each configuration, and listed the average. Configurations with nothing listed mean I haven't assembled those yet (hope to get to it tonight or tomorrow). Tested the following configurations, with the following results: Steyr Stock/Trigger Pack TSM Sear with Factory Spring - 7.75 TSM Sear with MSAR Spec Spring - 6.5 Factory Sear with Factory Spring - 8+ Factory Sear with MSAR Spec Spring - 6.875 Factory Sear/Neu Trigger/ Factory Spring - 6.5 Factory Sear/Neu Trigger/ MSAR Spec Spring - 5.25 Nato Stock/Trigger Pack Factory Sear/Neu Trigger/Factory Spring - 7.95 Factory Sear/Neu Trigger/MSAR Spec Spring - 5.15 Factory Sear/Factory Spring - 8.0+ Factory Sear/MSAR Spec Spring - 7.5 TSM Sear with Factory Spring - 8+ TSM Sear with MSAR Spec Spring - 6.375 I will be very interested to see if the 5.15 performs without malfunction in live fire. It feels very nice in dry fire. |
| Well I failed you guys.... Went out and shot the hell out of that trigger... Ran a bunch of drills and a run and gun course we set up out in the hills. Once we started I got so fired up shooting I didn't take a single pic.... I will try again this weekend but I will say about 500rds later I am impressed so far. The lighter trigger is defenatly noticeable especially running drills like the 22422 or the 12345 drill with counted rounds on target with time set. I am impressed so far we did do some precision shooting out to 400-500 ish yards and the trigger felt great. Still had the original Aug travel but the brake is noticeably lighter... Pretty awesome so far! |
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Totally want one! I'll try it out - and update my AUG log with it. I think you live in Texas in fact - if you're near my area, I'll just come pick it up from ya even. 2020sear in mine, so will measure the weight and report he difference.
[edit - drat, looks like I was too slow.] |
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Quoted:
Totally want one! I'll try it out - and update my AUG log with it. I think you live in Texas in fact - if you're near my area, I'll just come pick it up from ya even. 2020sear in mine, so will measure the weight and report he difference. [edit - drat, looks like I was too slow.] I'm going to try to get 2 or 3 more springs. As gentlemanfarmer got back to me, one will head his way, and another to you. I can't guarantee anything, but will let you know. |
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One person who received a spring but is not a member of ar15.com told me this regarding the spring he installed in a pack with an existing 2020 TSM:
The trigger is awesome. Compared to the original trigger pack I have it's amazing. So freaking smooth. It's a huge difference. It's a nice smooth pull the whole way. It's just like a 1911 but a longer pull.
I still haven't had a chance to put a spring in and test for myself. Have been busy, then with the holiday it may not get done until next week... It's encouraging to see these initial positive reviews though. |
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Just ordered one of Midway's new digital trigger pull gauges to try out when I get one in.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/831412/wheeler-engineering-professional-digital-trigger-pull-gage I know it's not recommended but I tried a little full synthetic Super Lube that's safe for plastics on the sear engagement surface and it made a huge difference in the pull. Only downside I can see is making sure it stays clean to prevent scoring. When I get the gauge I'll post the results with and without along with the spring with and without when it comes in. |
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No idea at all on anything regarding buying these as they're not for sale.
The purpose of this is to get firsthand results on function of the spring in a variety of AUG configurations. As the spring was modelled after the MSAR spring and literally just made by a spring manufacturer, the only way to really know if they will work is to field test them. I assume that if all goes well with those that are testing the spring, then perhaps in the future they might be found for sale, but that's outside the scope of this thread and should be addressed in the future with a separate thread, otherwise this may get locked. Let's try to keep this thread alive and within the bounds of the site's rules. 
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Quoted:
No idea at all on anything regarding buying these as they're not for sale. The purpose of this is to get firsthand results on function of the spring in a variety of AUG configurations. As the spring was modelled after the MSAR spring and literally just made by a spring manufacturer, the only way to really know if they will work is to field test them. I assume that if all goes well with those that are testing the spring, then perhaps in the future they might be found for sale, but that's outside the scope of this thread and should be addressed in the future with a separate thread, otherwise this may get locked. Let's try to keep this thread alive and within the bounds of the site's rules. If I were RatWorks, I'd be doing exactly what they are doing. Make a few samples, and send them out to beta-test level folks, most of whom will provide honest feedback. If things work, then the adder cost to a 2020sear package shouldn't be so bad, and have a better product/happier customer. For me, this spring eliminates the 2020 vs Neutrigger conundrum (where 2020 cuts creep, but stays heavy, while NueTrigger cuts weight, but stays long and creepy). With this spring, you cut back the creep via 2020 (which is actually more important than weight), AND it cuts weight by up to 2 lbs of pull. My trigger feels amazingly better with this. Since both are from the same supplier (I think), there's less worry about parts compatibility/compounding adjustments. The next test of course is to start hammering rounds through it. Questions include: -does the extra weight stress the plastic tab it's attached to, and increase risk of breakage? (I strongly doubt it, but this is what beta tester data is good for). -Does the lighter trigger increase risk of accidental discharge, full-auto, doubles, discharge on drops? Again, I highly doubt it, but anytime you do something to a trigger, you of course have to ask and investigate this (Again, beta testers are useful for this, especially ones that know this is an early-stage product, and to have a little extra caution). Once that works out (which it will, there won't be problems from this), then you can either include this for free with the 2020 sear (if it's cheap enough), or charge a nominal upgrade (I'd pay $20 more for this without blinking an eye, the user experience is so much better). The funny thing about a spring like this, is that the "cost" of fabrication is very low - I'm sure well under a dollar - if you happen to be making 100,000 of them. The cost of a specialty run however, which this is, I imagine is considerably higher; quite possibly by a lot. Not to mention there is some development and tooling expenses. I was planning on getting a Geissel as a matter of course (when he releases those). But for 1/3 what that price will likely be, this trigger is now so much improved, that I'm not as 100% on that now. |
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The installation of this spring was about a five minute or so job? If they are offered individually I'll need two then another complete(with spring)2020 kit. About. I used these instructions to do it. Be aware these aren't yet for sale, and the route to beta testing appears to be closed (for now). http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_43/408429_2020_TSM_Installation_Instruction_Pictorial.html |
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I just updated my earlier post with the data from the configurations I hadn't previously assembled. I assembled it in 12 different configurations, in total. I am now very adept at swapping parts in the AUG hammer packs. SCIENCE  Now I will start some live fire testing. I'm leaving it in the NATO/Factory Sear/Neu-Trigger/MSAR spring configuration for live fire testing. Since that produced the lowest trigger pull weight, I would assume it would also provide the highest likelihood of any type of malfunction. I will report back after I have 250 rounds or so through it with the results. Hopefully by Wednesday of this week, or so. |
| With a 2020 sear and the Msar Spring the trigger is completely different. The trigger movement is smooth and the break is exactly what you want in a trigger. I don't think anyone mentioned this but takedown is slightly less effort now too. You don't have to push as hard to remove the takedown pin. |
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Quoted:
I just updated my earlier post with the data from the configurations I hadn't previously assembled. I assembled it in 12 different configurations, in total. I am now very adept at swapping parts in the AUG hammer packs. SCIENCE
Now I will start some live fire testing. I'm leaving it in the NATO/Factory Sear/Neu-Trigger/MSAR spring configuration for live fire testing. Since that produced the lowest trigger pull weight, I would assume it would also provide the highest likelihood of any type of malfunction. I will report back after I have 250 rounds or so through it with the results. Hopefully by Wednesday of this week, or so. I finally put mine in and took measurements in an A3 pack and NATO pack. The numbers are promising, but my wheeler eng spring gauge is garbage. Off of confirmed CZ Custom shop pull weight (my other guns...), I'm anywhere from 0.5 - 1.5 pounds high. With this spring gauge. Bad news is that it's obviously inaccurate, yet the bright side is that I at least have a baseline to work from. I don't have time tonight to write down pull weights in various combinations I'll do that tomorrow, but instead I'll just copy paste what I sent Roger from 2020 via text message earlier tonight. "Very nice. Very very very nice The spring by itself is good, but the real magic happens when you get the short reset at the same time TSM plus spring is perfect Seriously, it's the best trigger I've ever felt in an AUG" |
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Following Avlash's method of averaging pull weights, these are my results. I don't have much confidence in the spring gauge that I used for testing, but at a minimum it gives a good baseline to see what the spring can do in differing configurations. You'll notice the neutrigger isn't listed, I don't own one.
Steyr Stock/A3 Trigger Pack TSM Sear with Factory Spring - 7.85 TSM Sear with MSAR Spec Spring - 6.5 Factory Sear with Factory Spring - 8+ Factory Sear with MSAR Spec Spring - 7.25 NATO Stock/NATO Trigger Pack *** This was a brand new never shot or test fired NATO kit made in 2015 (note that this felt noticeably much heavier than the unmodified A3 hammerpack) *** The above could explain what I measured below. Factory Sear/Factory Spring - 8+ Factory Sear/MSAR Spec Spring - 8+ TSM Sear with Factory Spring - 8+ TSM Sear with MSAR Spec Spring - 7.5 |
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Quoted:
SIGNIFICANT improvement. A 2020 sear combined with this spring, makes for the most usable rendition of the AUG trigger I've seen yet. Agreed. It is a smooth light pull and sharp crisp break. Now to test by actually firing the gun. Hoping to put 500+ of 9mm through it in the next week. |
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Is the spring you are using out of an MSAR, do you think? I have an MSAR and an extra stock, so maybe an extra pack I'll dig it out and compare it to your pics. Thanks maleante. The springs that were made were modelled after the msar 10 coil spring. The person behind 2020 told me that his new 10 coil spring we are testing is half a pound lighter than the genuine msar spring. |
Ok, have some live fire time behind the SMAUG (NATO trigger pack, 2020 precision sear) with this trigger spring in it. Took it to the monthly 3-gun match. The only outright malfunction I had was a stovepipe, because one stage called for shooting off of our left shoulder, and presumably the ejected brass got caught on my face. 
I had one instance where it felt like the the trigger stuck to the rear and didn't reset. I jiggled with it a little and it kept working though. Only fired a total of 3 mags though, so maybe it still has some wearing in to do. Otherwise the trigger felt good and I didn't feel like it impeded me in any way. |
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Results:
N= Number of pulls, very low or very high results weren't included for consistency. You must hit enter for the pull to be included in the average so that was pretty easy. Factory spring 
Factory spring w/Super Lube on sear 
Replacement spring 
Replacement spring w/Super Lube on sear 
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Quoted:
Whoa. Wasn't expecting that. I'm interested in the extreme values if you know them. Were those pulls using the 2020 TSM sear or the factory sear? All factory, I assumed the variance could be not pulling in exactly the same manner. I'll try and repeat the some of the testing tomorrow and put up everything. I was going fairly quickly and didn't write down the values I didn't enter. |
It's difficult for me to get a good reading on an AUG with my scales. There is drag along the receiver or stock, and any touching messes up the quality the test. Best method is to use a rigid rod that extends out so that nothing touches, per a standard competition trigger weight set. I sure don't have one of those.
Not sure if some of the gauges people are using here work that way or not. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 2020 Trigger Spring - AUG Hammerpack (Page 1 of 2)
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