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Posted: 7/3/2014 5:29:46 AM EDT
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Last weekend I ran my AUG A3 in a training class.
Before the class, rifle was cleaned and well lubed. Gas setting - standard Ammo used was steel cased Wolf. TD1, we went through approximately 800 rounds. No malfunctions. At the end of TD1, I decided not to clean/lube the rifle. TD2 started OK. However, towards lunch, I started having a combo of a stuck case with double feed. I gave the rifle a quick clean/lube and it worked for a while, until the stuck casings issue returned. This was towards the end of the class, and I switched the gas to "dirty". The class was winding down and I experienced no more malfunctions. Total round count: ~1200 Issues: We did a bit of barricade/support side shooting, and with AUG it was a bit awkward at times in order to avoid getting brass in the face. When using some barricade positions, I had a tendency to pull down on the VFG, which causes it to disengage/collapse I am not 100% used to the safety and there were a few drills, especially ones that required running where I was fumbling with the safety, losing time. |
| Does your Wolf ammo have the red lacquer on the primer? If so, it is your ammo. When, the primer hits and the bullet goes off, the red lacquer spreads and evently causes it to gum up and makes it harder to extract the round. Another reason if it is not the red lacquer is that Brass cases expand and contract in the chamber. Steel cases just expand making it harder to extract. You got a nice Aug, save the Wolf for AKs and go for some PMC Xtac for cheap but decent ammo. |
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No lacquer on the ammo. The reason I buy "nice" guns is that I expect them to work with the shittiest ammo possible.
When I run an AR in a training class, I always clean the chamber and lube it well, so I knew I was taking a chance for TD2 by not cleaning/lubing my rifle. I just wanted to see how it would work. |
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This. I had issues with the Russian stuff until I went to adverse. Quoted:
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I have read in other forums that if you are running steel cased ammo in your AUG you should have the gas set on the Adverse setting. This. I had issues with the Russian stuff until I went to adverse. Yep, had issues with surplus Malaysian ammo as well until I switched over to adverse. Worked as designed after that. |
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Thanks for the data. Do you have an opinion or observations on how a traditional AR does under similar conditions? In particular, one with a mid length DI gas system?
I have yet to determine if the adjustablepiston based gas system is a benefit (allowing modifications to reflect conditions). Our a detriment (an adjustable item the user could have at the wrong setting - at the most inopportune time). I don't know if by comparison a DI type gas system somehow self regulates or otherwise doesn't need that ability. Can't see how, but note that many modern military piston systems are adjustable, but never heard of an adjustable DI. I don't know why. So, curious if you saw anyone with a middy shooting wolf too, and if they had better or worse reliability. |
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Had the same issue yesterday with my MSAR and Wolf steel cased ammo.
Ran fine for about 60 rounds, then had some double feeds towards the end. I had a supressor on it, so it was getting even more crud blowing back into the action. It's run fine with brass ammo, so I belive on these models they just don't like steel cased ammo. It's run fine on my AR's, so I'll use it up on that. |
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60 rounds vs ~1000 is a bit of difference, wouldn't you think so?
Regarding mid length ARs: I have run them in multiple classes that lasted over three days and averaged 1500 or so rounds. My mo when running steel in AR: lubricate the BCG every few hours and clean the chamber and lube bcg/ch every night. With this regiment I experience almost no ammo related malfunctions when running steel. |
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Does your Wolf ammo have the red lacquer on the primer? If so, it is your ammo. When, the primer hits and the bullet goes off, the red lacquer spreads and evently causes it to gum up and makes it harder to extract the round. Another reason if it is not the red lacquer is that Brass cases expand and contract in the chamber. Steel cases just expand making it harder to extract. You got a nice Aug, save the Wolf for AKs and go for some PMC Xtac for cheap but decent ammo. No...just.............No... |
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No...just.............No... Quoted:
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Does your Wolf ammo have the red lacquer on the primer? If so, it is your ammo. When, the primer hits and the bullet goes off, the red lacquer spreads and evently causes it to gum up and makes it harder to extract the round. Another reason if it is not the red lacquer is that Brass cases expand and contract in the chamber. Steel cases just expand making it harder to extract. You got a nice Aug, save the Wolf for AKs and go for some PMC Xtac for cheap but decent ammo. No...just.............No... What's incorrect there? And why the attitude, you seem supremely confident in the error of another? Gris' comment mirrors my observation. I believe it was explained one time how brass has a different thermal expansion rate than steel. And so brass swells while very hot, and then shrinks as the heat is conducted into the chamber, and the pressure is released. Whereas steel does not contract back as much after the hot pressure sets the new shape. and so keeps the tighter set that the pressure exertion put on it. Or I think it read something like that, it's been awhile. And while it may seem far fetched to think there is enough time for that to matter, there kind of is. Flash temperature was way hotter than brass temperature coming out of a semi auto. And brass temperature out if a bolt action with the fastest bolt puller in the world running it, is way cooler than brass out of a semi auto. And if none of that convinces you - pick up a fired brass casing and drop it back in the chamber. Then try opening your bolt. Now do the same thing with one of your spent steel casings. Hint, bring a hammer when you do the steel. |
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What's incorrect there? And why the attitude, you seem supremely confident in the error of another? Gris' comment mirrors my observation. I believe it was explained one time how brass has a different thermal expansion rate than steel. And so brass swells while very hot, and then shrinks as the heat is conducted into the chamber, and the pressure is released. Whereas steel does not contract back as much after the hot pressure sets the new shape. and so keeps the tighter set that the pressure exertion put on it. Or I think it read something like that, it's been awhile. And while it may seem far fetched to think there is enough time for that to matter, there kind of is. Flash temperature was way hotter than brass temperature coming out of a semi auto. And brass temperature out if a bolt action with the fastest bolt puller in the world running it, is way cooler than brass out of a semi auto. And if none of that convinces you - pick up a fired brass casing and drop it back in the chamber. Then try opening your bolt. Now do the same thing with one of your spent steel casings. Hint, bring a hammer when you do the steel. Quoted:
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Does your Wolf ammo have the red lacquer on the primer? If so, it is your ammo. When, the primer hits and the bullet goes off, the red lacquer spreads and evently causes it to gum up and makes it harder to extract the round. Another reason if it is not the red lacquer is that Brass cases expand and contract in the chamber. Steel cases just expand making it harder to extract. You got a nice Aug, save the Wolf for AKs and go for some PMC Xtac for cheap but decent ammo. No...just.............No... What's incorrect there? And why the attitude, you seem supremely confident in the error of another? Gris' comment mirrors my observation. I believe it was explained one time how brass has a different thermal expansion rate than steel. And so brass swells while very hot, and then shrinks as the heat is conducted into the chamber, and the pressure is released. Whereas steel does not contract back as much after the hot pressure sets the new shape. and so keeps the tighter set that the pressure exertion put on it. Or I think it read something like that, it's been awhile. And while it may seem far fetched to think there is enough time for that to matter, there kind of is. Flash temperature was way hotter than brass temperature coming out of a semi auto. And brass temperature out if a bolt action with the fastest bolt puller in the world running it, is way cooler than brass out of a semi auto. And if none of that convinces you - pick up a fired brass casing and drop it back in the chamber. Then try opening your bolt. Now do the same thing with one of your spent steel casings. Hint, bring a hammer when you do the steel. My opinion for what its worth. He is most likely getting those malfunctions because wolf is under powered in the powder department as far as .223/556 goes. By putting it in the "adverse" setting he is putting more gas into the piston making up from the lack of pressure from the wolf. Since the AUG is set up for the .mil I'm guessing gas system is more tuned to hotter 556 loads. I highly doubt its coming from the thermal expansion of the cases. Then again I don't own an AUG so YMMV |
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What's incorrect there? And why the attitude, you seem supremely confident in the error of another? Gris' comment mirrors my observation. I believe it was explained one time how brass has a different thermal expansion rate than steel. And so brass swells while very hot, and then shrinks as the heat is conducted into the chamber, and the pressure is released. Whereas steel does not contract back as much after the hot pressure sets the new shape. and so keeps the tighter set that the pressure exertion put on it. Or I think it read something like that, it's been awhile. And while it may seem far fetched to think there is enough time for that to matter, there kind of is. Flash temperature was way hotter than brass temperature coming out of a semi auto. And brass temperature out if a bolt action with the fastest bolt puller in the world running it, is way cooler than brass out of a semi auto. And if none of that convinces you - pick up a fired brass casing and drop it back in the chamber. Then try opening your bolt. Now do the same thing with one of your spent steel casings. Hint, bring a hammer when you do the steel. Quoted:
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Does your Wolf ammo have the red lacquer on the primer? If so, it is your ammo. When, the primer hits and the bullet goes off, the red lacquer spreads and evently causes it to gum up and makes it harder to extract the round. Another reason if it is not the red lacquer is that Brass cases expand and contract in the chamber. Steel cases just expand making it harder to extract. You got a nice Aug, save the Wolf for AKs and go for some PMC Xtac for cheap but decent ammo. No...just.............No... What's incorrect there? And why the attitude, you seem supremely confident in the error of another? Gris' comment mirrors my observation. I believe it was explained one time how brass has a different thermal expansion rate than steel. And so brass swells while very hot, and then shrinks as the heat is conducted into the chamber, and the pressure is released. Whereas steel does not contract back as much after the hot pressure sets the new shape. and so keeps the tighter set that the pressure exertion put on it. Or I think it read something like that, it's been awhile. And while it may seem far fetched to think there is enough time for that to matter, there kind of is. Flash temperature was way hotter than brass temperature coming out of a semi auto. And brass temperature out if a bolt action with the fastest bolt puller in the world running it, is way cooler than brass out of a semi auto. And if none of that convinces you - pick up a fired brass casing and drop it back in the chamber. Then try opening your bolt. Now do the same thing with one of your spent steel casings. Hint, bring a hammer when you do the steel. Brass obturates and fire forms to the chamber walls. Steel does not expand nearly as much....often times not sealing neck against the chamber walls, allowing carbon and gas to flow between the case and the chamber wall. This leads to carbon build up in the chamber and once it becomes thick enough you start getting stuck cases. This has to be reiterated a thousand times to people who insist "lacquered" steel case ammo "melts" in a hot chamber causing stuck cases as well. A chamber brush dipped in hoppes about half way through a class (if you're shooting steel cased ammo) solves this problem fairly quickly. No attitude....just get tired of trying to explain it over and over. Also, brass does not expand and then contract while firing. It fire forms to the chamber shape and elastic rebound would be unmeasurable if it ever even occured in that short of a time span (thousanths of a second it takes from firing until extraction is initiated. ETA: Drop an unfired steel case round into a case gauge, then remove it...fire it...and drop the fired case in again. In most instances the steel does not expand much at all and it'll drop right in. Do the same with a brass cased round. It will expand to the point it will not drop entirely into the case gauge, hence part of the need for full length sizing when going from one firearm to another where chamber dimensions will never be exactly the same. |
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My opinion for what its worth. He is most likely getting those malfunctions because wolf is under powered in the powder department as far as .223/556 goes. By putting it in the "adverse" setting he is putting more gas into the piston making up from the lack of pressure from the wolf. Since the AUG is set up for the .mil I'm guessing gas system is more tuned to hotter 556 loads. I highly doubt its coming from the thermal expansion of the cases. Then again I don't own an AUG so YMMV Quoted:
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Does your Wolf ammo have the red lacquer on the primer? If so, it is your ammo. When, the primer hits and the bullet goes off, the red lacquer spreads and evently causes it to gum up and makes it harder to extract the round. Another reason if it is not the red lacquer is that Brass cases expand and contract in the chamber. Steel cases just expand making it harder to extract. You got a nice Aug, save the Wolf for AKs and go for some PMC Xtac for cheap but decent ammo. No...just.............No... What's incorrect there? And why the attitude, you seem supremely confident in the error of another? Gris' comment mirrors my observation. I believe it was explained one time how brass has a different thermal expansion rate than steel. And so brass swells while very hot, and then shrinks as the heat is conducted into the chamber, and the pressure is released. Whereas steel does not contract back as much after the hot pressure sets the new shape. and so keeps the tighter set that the pressure exertion put on it. Or I think it read something like that, it's been awhile. And while it may seem far fetched to think there is enough time for that to matter, there kind of is. Flash temperature was way hotter than brass temperature coming out of a semi auto. And brass temperature out if a bolt action with the fastest bolt puller in the world running it, is way cooler than brass out of a semi auto. And if none of that convinces you - pick up a fired brass casing and drop it back in the chamber. Then try opening your bolt. Now do the same thing with one of your spent steel casings. Hint, bring a hammer when you do the steel. My opinion for what its worth. He is most likely getting those malfunctions because wolf is under powered in the powder department as far as .223/556 goes. By putting it in the "adverse" setting he is putting more gas into the piston making up from the lack of pressure from the wolf. Since the AUG is set up for the .mil I'm guessing gas system is more tuned to hotter 556 loads. I highly doubt its coming from the thermal expansion of the cases. Then again I don't own an AUG so YMMV Wolf/Tula is pretty underpowered and running on Adverse would be a good call. The stuck cases are coming from a dirty chamber. BTDT with an AR once at a group shoot when Wolf was cheap to prove this point. This was even before the lacquer sealed stuff was phased out for the polymer cases. Fired 1200rnds through a LE6920 in about 2 hours. At 800-900rnds I started getting stuck cases, FTExtracts. Cleaned the chamber and chamber only and added no lube. It was back up and running 100% for the last 3-400rnds before I ran out of ammo. With steel cases and cleaner powder you could probably get quite a bit further than that before you start running into issues....but Russian ammo and clean burning powder don't go together.... |
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The steel case behavior is some great info and I appreciate it. I'm not so sure though about the steel case stickyness being just from fouling the chamber. The reason I say that is because I once bought steel cased .22 ammo and used that in a bolt action .22. Something like $5/1000 round russian paper wrapped brick. It was very difficult to extract the spent casings, even on the first shot. Which got me to testing steel cased behavior in other chamberings and guns, and the observance that fired casings, returned to that same gun, are much more difficult to extract than fired brass casings. To the point I locked up at least one gun trying this and had to beat on it to open it back up.
My pet opinion has been that the reason Wolf is so weak has little to do with the price of gunpowder, case strength, or liability. But instead was done as a balance to prevent the cases from being even more difficult to extract. Though I never heard anyone else suggest it, so could be wrong. I do agree that the lacquer blame is mostly a myth though. Interesting to hear from the OP that a middy AR was plenty reliable with wolf, without an adjustable gas system. But he was aggressively pro active in maintenence to assure that. |
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The steel case behavior is some great info and I appreciate it. I'm not so sure though about the steel case stickyness being just from fouling the chamber. The reason I say that is because I once bought steel cased .22 ammo and used that in a bolt action .22. Something like $5/1000 round russian paper wrapped brick. It was very difficult to extract the spent casings, even on the first shot. Which got me to testing steel cased behavior in other chamberings and guns, and the observance that fired casings, returned to that same gun, are much more difficult to extract than fired brass casings. To the point I locked up at least one gun trying this and had to beat on it to open it back up. My pet opinion has been that the reason Wolf is so weak has little to do with the price of gunpowder, case strength, or liability. But instead was done as a balance to prevent the cases from being even more difficult to extract. Though I never heard anyone else suggest it, so could be wrong. I do agree that the lacquer blame is mostly a myth though. Interesting to hear from the OP that a middy AR was plenty reliable with wolf, without an adjustable gas system. But he was aggressively pro active in maintenence to assure that. This could very well be from improperly sized .22LR cases to begin with. Wouldn't be the first time low end .22LR ammo cases weren't consistent and failed to chamber or extract. "Blowby" also wouldn't have much of an effect on a low pressure round like .22LR, or even Wolf's centerfire pistol caliber offerings...but it does become an issue once you step into centerfire rifle calibers operating at higher pressures. |
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The AUG with the highest rd count is my hammerpack host A1.
It has 20k+ rds through it over the last 30 years... it eats wolf, tula (herters), tula white box, brass, etc like a fat kid at a buffet. It is permanently on the "normal" position and runs like a sewing machine. If your gun isn't "broken in", put it on adverse -adverse setting is there for a reason- the manual even states it is for weak underpowered ammo. |
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Brass obturates and fire forms to the chamber walls. Steel does not expand nearly as much....often times not sealing neck against the chamber walls, allowing carbon and gas to flow between the case and the chamber wall. This leads to carbon build up in the chamber and once it becomes thick enough you start getting stuck cases. This has to be reiterated a thousand times to people who insist "lacquered" steel case ammo "melts" in a hot chamber causing stuck cases as well. A chamber brush dipped in hoppes about half way through a class (if you're shooting steel cased ammo) solves this problem fairly quickly. No attitude....just get tired of trying to explain it over and over. Also, brass does not expand and then contract while firing. It fire forms to the chamber shape and elastic rebound would be unmeasurable if it ever even occured in that short of a time span (thousanths of a second it takes from firing until extraction is initiated. ETA: Drop an unfired steel case round into a case gauge, then remove it...fire it...and drop the fired case in again. In most instances the steel does not expand much at all and it'll drop right in. Do the same with a brass cased round. It will expand to the point it will not drop entirely into the case gauge, hence part of the need for full length sizing when going from one firearm to another where chamber dimensions will never be exactly the same. Thanks CMS. You saved me a bunch of typing. Lol! OP, thanks for the report. Always interested in the AARs from classes when something other than AR15 is used. |
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Under no circumstances would I use Wolf or any other bi-metal jacketed round through any firearm I wasn't prepared to replace the barrel on.
Read this, all of it. Occasional plinking with Wolf and other bi-metal jacketed ammo? Sure, occasional. Actual sustained use? Not without making sure I have a replacement barrel on hand. If you're one of the TL;DR types, search for the phrase "Why Did The Barrels Wear The Way They Did?" and read from there onwards... |
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Under no circumstances would I use Wolf or any other bi-metal jacketed round through any firearm I wasn't prepared to replace the barrel on. Read this, all of it. Occasional plinking with Wolf and other bi-metal jacketed ammo? Sure, occasional. Actual sustained use? Not without making sure I have a replacement barrel on hand. If you're one of the TL;DR types, search for the phrase "Why Did The Barrels Wear The Way They Did?" and read from there onwards... A quality CL barrel will last a long time. The money you save per case of Russian ammo can be set aside and you can buy an entirely new rifle by the time that barrel is shot. Something to consider. |
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A quality CL barrel will last a long time. The money you save per case of Russian ammo can be set aside and you can buy an entirely new rifle by the time that barrel is shot. Something to consider. Quoted:
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Under no circumstances would I use Wolf or any other bi-metal jacketed round through any firearm I wasn't prepared to replace the barrel on. Read this, all of it. Occasional plinking with Wolf and other bi-metal jacketed ammo? Sure, occasional. Actual sustained use? Not without making sure I have a replacement barrel on hand. If you're one of the TL;DR types, search for the phrase "Why Did The Barrels Wear The Way They Did?" and read from there onwards... A quality CL barrel will last a long time. The money you save per case of Russian ammo can be set aside and you can buy an entirely new rifle by the time that barrel is shot. Something to consider. ...if you read the article, the TWO barrels they shot out in less than 5k rounds WERE chromed lined 
Yes, they did a graph using Federal as the brass baseline, and it came out that even with two new barrels, at high round counts it was still less expensive to feed your rifle Wolf or Brown Bear. However, as AUG barrels are far more expensive than the $250 guesstimate they used to come up with their graph, and as at least older AUG barrels are serial numbered to the rifle...it may pay on an AR, with a $250 barrel...but probably not on an AUG. |
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...if you read the article, the TWO barrels they shot out in less than 5k rounds WERE chromed lined
Yes, they did a graph using Federal as the brass baseline, and it came out that even with two new barrels, at high round counts it was still less expensive to feed your rifle Wolf or Brown Bear. However, as AUG barrels are far more expensive than the $250 guesstimate they used to come up with their graph, and as at least older AUG barrels are serial numbered to the rifle...it may pay on an AR, with a $250 barrel...but probably not on an AUG. Quoted:
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Under no circumstances would I use Wolf or any other bi-metal jacketed round through any firearm I wasn't prepared to replace the barrel on. Read this, all of it. Occasional plinking with Wolf and other bi-metal jacketed ammo? Sure, occasional. Actual sustained use? Not without making sure I have a replacement barrel on hand. If you're one of the TL;DR types, search for the phrase "Why Did The Barrels Wear The Way They Did?" and read from there onwards... A quality CL barrel will last a long time. The money you save per case of Russian ammo can be set aside and you can buy an entirely new rifle by the time that barrel is shot. Something to consider. ...if you read the article, the TWO barrels they shot out in less than 5k rounds WERE chromed lined
Yes, they did a graph using Federal as the brass baseline, and it came out that even with two new barrels, at high round counts it was still less expensive to feed your rifle Wolf or Brown Bear. However, as AUG barrels are far more expensive than the $250 guesstimate they used to come up with their graph, and as at least older AUG barrels are serial numbered to the rifle...it may pay on an AR, with a $250 barrel...but probably not on an AUG. I've read the article...and I have my doubts. We've put over 7k rnds of mostly full auto through a MK18 upper on our post sample lower testing suppressors we build and it still holds 3 MOA with no keyholing or fliers....almost all Tulammo and only about 1k of reloads using pulled 62gr M855 pulled bullets. Just my personal experience, which is worth more to me than an internet article. You can decide for yourself what it's worth to you. |
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No lacquer on the ammo. The reason I buy "nice" guns is that I expect them to work with the shittiest ammo possible. Just saying, this logic is flawed. Why in the world do you expect a good gun to suddenly turn shit ammunition into good ammunition? If the ammunition is bad enough that the gun can't digest it, don't blame the gun, that's ridiculous. Steel cased ammunition sticks in chambers; this is common knowledge. A 'nice' gun doesn't somehow change the laws of physics and make these things no longer a problem. You should feed your 'nice' gun 'nice' ammunition. You paid for a nice gun. Why feed it shit? You paid for reliability in the firearm, but you demand it from crap ammunition. You could get the same reliability from a 'not nice' gun using shitty ammunition - that is to say, nice or not, steel case will stick in chambers sometimes. It's like buying an airplane but feeding it 87 octane with ethanol, then being angry when the plane's engine doesn't run perfectly. 'but i bought a nice plane'. Well, too bad. You fed it shit and the gas is as important as the engine is. |
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That's because it's rebranded PPU and not made in Russia... Quoted:
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I have been really impressed with the Wolf GOLD (brass cased) .223. That's because it's rebranded PPU and not made in Russia... GOOD TO KNOW - Thanks !! The 55gr .223 was almost hitting 5,56 muzzle velocities....and about 2 MOA at 100 |
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