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Posted: 6/21/2010 2:18:35 PM EDT
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With the current production AUG pattern rifles, it would seem helpful to have a reference thread for when people invariably ask: what's the difference between a MSAR, Steyr and TPD? Granted, there are different models and trim levels available. But anyone care to chip in on comparisons? How do they feel? Aftermarket options? Accuracy? Customer support? Reliability? Etc.
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i didn't see any side by side accuracy or reliability reviews up there... i wouldn't mind seeing 2 or 3 different aug pattern rifles have a few hundred rounds run through them with reports on accuracy, dependability etc...
parts comparisons are nice, but i think performance comparisons would be nicer |
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Performance and reliability wise they are all very close. Everything else you are asking for is subjective.... Customer support is great from both, but MSAR definitely does have more forum presence, but Steyr is no slouch for sure. Aftermarket slightly favors MSAR, since I can only think of one or two things that are MSAR only, but there are some Steyr stuff like the Steyr grip, NATO stock, Steyr Optic... If you want accuracy and subjective feel, there are plenty of AARs if you look around here or TOS. Its really more a question of do you want a USA made MSAR, or do you want Steyr. Thats really what it comes down to. What name do you want on the side, how many rails you want, and whether you want AR mag compatibility. That is no shit the crux of the differences for the most part. Everything else is minor differences that are covered in the side-by-side tacked thread above.... This is a very subjective thing. There is no easy "Steyr is better/MSAR is better". It truly is a matter of opinion... |
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Quoted: Performance and reliability wise they are all very close. Everything else you are asking for is subjective.... Customer support is great from both, but MSAR definitely does have more forum presence, but Steyr is no slouch for sure. Aftermarket slightly favors MSAR, since I can only think of one or two things that are MSAR only, but there are some Steyr stuff like the Steyr grip rail and NATO stock... If you want accuracy and subjective feel, there are plenty of AARs if you look around here or TOS. Its really more a question of do you want a USA made MSAR, or do you want Steyr. Thats really what it comes down to. What name do you want on the side, how many rails you want, and whether you want AR mag compatibility. That is no shit the crux of the differences for the most part. Everything else is minor differences that are covered in the side-by-side tacked thread above.... This is a very subjective thing. There is no easy "Steyr is better/MSAR is better". It truly is a matter of opinion... Also: don't forget the TPD!
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Quoted: Quoted: Performance and reliability wise they are all very close. Everything else you are asking for is subjective.... Customer support is great from both, but MSAR definitely does have more forum presence, but Steyr is no slouch for sure. Aftermarket slightly favors MSAR, since I can only think of one or two things that are MSAR only, but there are some Steyr stuff like the Steyr grip rail and NATO stock... If you want accuracy and subjective feel, there are plenty of AARs if you look around here or TOS. Its really more a question of do you want a USA made MSAR, or do you want Steyr. Thats really what it comes down to. What name do you want on the side, how many rails you want, and whether you want AR mag compatibility. That is no shit the crux of the differences for the most part. Everything else is minor differences that are covered in the side-by-side tacked thread above.... This is a very subjective thing. There is no easy "Steyr is better/MSAR is better". It truly is a matter of opinion... Also: don't forget the TPD! TPD is so small currently its hard to appraise. I haven't heard a straight answer if new rifles are even being made. TPD does have the super cool billet aluminum receiver, Steyr/MSAR use cast receivers... For guys who are shopping, my advice would be what I said above. Decide "What name do you want on the side, how many rails you want, and whether you want AR mag compatibility"... Everything else is fairly subjective and covered in the tacked thread above. |
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Quoted: Preban AUG's, USR's, STG's, TPD's, E4's, and A3's are all really awesome rifles. Where else can you get a rifle with a quick detach barrel that is only 27" long in a military caliber? This is the truth right here. I think people want some chart or something that makes it easy to say "My rifle is better". However, I don't think that is a good way to try and understand the differences in these rifle. Most of the little differences are covered in the tacked thread above and the manufacturers specs, the rest are subjective judgment calls. Do you want AR mags or AUG mags? Do you want 100% US made or do you want Steyr? Does complete parts compatibility with original Steyrs matter to you or do you go with MSAR? These are all subjective calls that cannot be summed up by some check mark on a chart, and these are really where the differences are. Functionally/Reliability wise they are all too close to call... |
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Here's my take on it and what I feel should be a huge deciding factor for anyone shopping.
MSAR (STG or E4): Microtech seems to be firmly planted and dedicated to making these rifles way into the future. Parts are available and probably always will be available. If you break their rifle, they will fix it. Period. Steyr (A1, A2, USR, A3, etc.): Sabre Defense is making new A3's and will repair them under warranty. I don't know if parts are available through Sabre. If you have an older pre-ban Steyr rifle, you better know how to repair it yourself. Most parts are available through P.J.'s Steyr Parts and he may do repairs, not sure. Don't know of any other suppliers right off hand. All the info. I posted about the A3 is evidently incorrect. I can neither confirm or deny, but according to the post below, it's wrong. TPD AXR: This is what I own and therefore have the most knowledge about. It is almost entirely made from genuine Steyr parts save for the required 922 compliance stuff that TPD manufactures. I'm still not 100% sure what these are. So far I have: receiver, gas block, gas regulator, gas piston, piston spring, barrel, muzzle brake, and it uses M16 mags. As of right now, TPD is in business. I'm not sure how factory repairs work as I haven't needed it. The owner is fairly easy to contact, and has made good on the one issue I had. My biggest concern is parts. If the supply of Steyr stuff dries up or skyrockets in price, what then? I feel I'm capable of making most repairs as the system is pretty simple. I absolutely love my AXR. But the parts situation alone has made me think more than once about swapping for an MSAR E4. And here's an honest observation on my part: There seem to be alot of issues with the MSAR rifles. I know that they most generally make it right, but I haven't had any issues with my AXR. But then sometimes I think that the reason it looks this way to me is simply because of the much larger number of rifles MSAR has produced. Either way, there are a lot of happy MSAR owners out there. |
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Quoted: No, I wouldn't say Sabre is "making the new A3's"... It is not Sabre who you contact for parts or warranty, it is Steyr. Some of the compliance parts are made by Sabre, but much of the A3 is still made in Austria by Steyr. What is made here, is made under contract to Steyrs spec, with Steyr blueprints, with the help of Steyr engineers, and in fact quite a bit of original Steyr tooling was shipped over. It is not reverse engineered from an AUG... It is an AUG Here's my take on it and what I feel should be a huge deciding factor for anyone shopping. MSAR (STG or E4): Microtech seems to be firmly planted and dedicated to making these rifles way into the future. Parts are available and probably always will be available. If you break their rifle, they will fix it. Period. Steyr (A1, A2, USR, A3, etc.): Sabre Defense is making new A3's and will repair them under warranty. I don't know if parts are available through Sabre. If you have an older pre-ban Steyr rifle, you better know how to repair it yourself. Most parts are available through P.J.'s Steyr Parts and he may do repairs, not sure. Don't know of any other suppliers right off hand. TPD AXR: This is what I own and therefore have the most knowledge about. It is almost entirely made from genuine Steyr parts save for the required 922 compliance stuff that TPD manufactures. I'm still not 100% sure what these are. So far I have: receiver, gas block, gas regulator, gas piston, piston spring, barrel, muzzle brake, and it uses M16 mags. As of right now, TPD is in business. I'm not sure how factory repairs work as I haven't needed it. The owner is fairly easy to contact, and has made good on the one issue I had. My biggest concern is parts. If the supply of Steyr stuff dries up or skyrockets in price, what then? I feel I'm capable of making most repairs as the system is pretty simple. I absolutely love my AXR. But the parts situation alone has made me think more than once about swapping for an MSAR E4. And here's an honest observation on my part: There seem to be alot of issues with the MSAR rifles. I know that they most generally make it right, but I haven't had any issues with my AXR. But then sometimes I think that the reason it looks this way to me is simply because of the much larger number of rifles MSAR has produced. Either way, there are a lot of happy MSAR owners out there. The receiver must be marked "Steyr Arms AUG A3 (then in small print) mfg:f by Sabre" because by US law a receiver must be marked at the time of completion with a unique serial number and the info about who made the receiver.. The A3 itself is not manufactured by Sabre.... I've said it before, but the A3 is no more Sabre's than Noveske is CMT's. Sabre just makes some of the parts under contract for Steyr, the same way CMT makes parts under contract for several AR makers... ETA: I notice your edit above. I would like to say those who want to confirm for themselves can contact Einar at Steyr. It is a fairly common misunderstanding that Sabre "makes" the A3, so its totally understandable you got that. Its is a a regrettable byproduct of the ridiculous stupidity of 922(r) laws US import restrictions....  We're all Bullpup Brothers down here...  |
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At some point we gotta look at money. I've lusted after an AUG since I had a Mini-14 and wished I could have the Steyr I handled. It was a metric shit-ton of money then, and they are still expensive.
I only have the price of a decent AR in the MSAR STG. It has always gone bang, and never given me cause for complaint. If you have the money, explore the Steyr. Otherwise, go MSAR. Moon |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
No, I wouldn't say Sabre is "making the new A3's"... It is not Sabre who you contact for parts or warranty, it is Steyr. Some of the compliance parts are made by Sabre, but much of the A3 is still made in Austria by Steyr. What is made here, is made under contract to Steyrs spec, with Steyr blueprints, with the help of Steyr engineers, and in fact quite a bit of original Steyr tooling was shipped over. It is not reverse engineered from an AUG... It is an AUG
Here's my take on it and what I feel should be a huge deciding factor for anyone shopping. MSAR (STG or E4): Microtech seems to be firmly planted and dedicated to making these rifles way into the future. Parts are available and probably always will be available. If you break their rifle, they will fix it. Period. Steyr (A1, A2, USR, A3, etc.): Sabre Defense is making new A3's and will repair them under warranty. I don't know if parts are available through Sabre. If you have an older pre-ban Steyr rifle, you better know how to repair it yourself. Most parts are available through P.J.'s Steyr Parts and he may do repairs, not sure. Don't know of any other suppliers right off hand. TPD AXR: This is what I own and therefore have the most knowledge about. It is almost entirely made from genuine Steyr parts save for the required 922 compliance stuff that TPD manufactures. I'm still not 100% sure what these are. So far I have: receiver, gas block, gas regulator, gas piston, piston spring, barrel, muzzle brake, and it uses M16 mags. As of right now, TPD is in business. I'm not sure how factory repairs work as I haven't needed it. The owner is fairly easy to contact, and has made good on the one issue I had. My biggest concern is parts. If the supply of Steyr stuff dries up or skyrockets in price, what then? I feel I'm capable of making most repairs as the system is pretty simple. I absolutely love my AXR. But the parts situation alone has made me think more than once about swapping for an MSAR E4. And here's an honest observation on my part: There seem to be alot of issues with the MSAR rifles. I know that they most generally make it right, but I haven't had any issues with my AXR. But then sometimes I think that the reason it looks this way to me is simply because of the much larger number of rifles MSAR has produced. Either way, there are a lot of happy MSAR owners out there. The receiver must be marked "Steyr Arms AUG A3 (then in small print) mfg:f by Sabre" because by US law a receiver must be marked at the time of completion with a unique serial number and the info about who made the receiver.. The A3 itself is not manufactured by Sabre.... I've said it before, but the A3 is no more Sabre's than Noveske is CMT's. Sabre just makes some of the parts under contract for Steyr, the same way CMT makes parts under contract for several AR makers... ETA: I notice your edit above. I would like to say those who want to confirm for themselves can contact Einar at Steyr. It is a fairly common misunderstanding that Sabre "makes" the A3, so its totally understandable you got that. Its is a a regrettable byproduct of the ridiculous stupidity of 922(r) laws....
We're all Bullpup Bastards down here... Fiixed it. We have no home and we don't know who are daddy's are... 
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