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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - First bullpup (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 6/29/2009 12:11:33 AM EDT
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I'm going to start saving for my first Bullpup, but I don't know which one to look for, but have it narrowed down between two:
Steyr AUG and the FS200 Which is a more accurate rifle? Which one has easier maintenance? Which one is more durable? Which one would be easier to mount a red-dot/minor optic to? Thanks |
| I owned an original Steyr AUG for 15 years. I now own a FN FS2000. Out of the two I prefer the FN. Great gun! P.S. Don't let these guys talk you into a MSAR STG556 (it's like a cult on this board). If you have the cash go for the real deal either new AUG or an old preban if you decide go for Steyr. There nothing like having the real thing. But my vote is for the FN mainly because FN is a huge company with military contracts and they will be around for a long time. I don't trust Steyr after what they did when I owned my AUG. Just basically abandoned the U.S. market. I will add I have nothing against the MSAR it's just that they are not the real thing. My FN is made and assembled in Belgium. I'm a little picky about that, I want my guns made in the country of origin and that's why I will not buy new Sigs or some Beretta's. But that's just me. |
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I'm sorry I did'nt answer your questions. Which is a more accurate rifle? The FN without a doubt but both have triggers that take some getting used to as any bullpup does. Which one has easier maintenance? The Steyr but the FN is not that bad until you start breaking down the bolt carrier. Just takes some getting used to. Which one is more durable? They are both about equal in this department although the Steyr feels more solid but that's just a perception because the FN has more hollow space in the buttstock. Which one would be easier to mount a red-dot/minor optic to? Again they are equal especially if you buy the Tactical model of the FN. Hope this helps you out. You should check out STEYRAUG.com and FNFORUM.net for more info on both. Take care and good luck and keep us posted.
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I'm not here to talk you into an MSAR but you're cheating yourself if you don't try one.Look,you can buy into the crap about it "not being an original" or you can recognize that it,much like the bucketloads of non-original Armalite high quality AR's,is a fantastic shooting gun that by all accounts is produced by a company that stands very firmly behind their product.
Steyr stopped selling the AUG in the US due to having a product that wasn't exactly a smashing sales success following the import ban and AWB but it also was the expensive enthusiasts option that didn't find enough enthusiasts with $ at the time,much like why the SL8 and USC dissapeared from the market for a few years. As I understand it,MSAR has long ago shipped out far,far more STG's than Steyr ever sold AUG's in the US and I'm thinking it will be a while before the Sabres and TPD's added to that total catch up to them,or most likely it'll never happen.I don't have much to say about the arguement about not wanting a gun made in the country that designed it other than I raise an eyebrow towards anyone who wouldn't own a Bulgarian AK or Valmet on principle,for example.Whatever floats your boat I guess. |
| I agree with outofbattery. At least take a look the MSAR. They are less expensive than the than the FN and the Steyr. From what I recall there where about 10,000 original Steyr AUG's imported. MSAR has good reputation and from what I hear their customer service is outstanding. I forgot to add that one of the reasons I bought the FN was that it could be banned with a stroke of a pen just like what happened to the original AUG's. I just wanted be sure I got one before that went down again. From what I understand is the new AUG is assembled here with Austrian and U.S. components. The FN is all Belgian. Just another consideration if you are thinking of it as a long term investment as I do especially considering the price. |
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STG-556 is coming out with a new top optic rail that is going to be as long as the AUG A3 top rail and is going to be improved over it (better looking easier to place on and take off single point sling and so forth). The side rail with the STG is better than the AUG A3's side rail in terms of placement and available length options. Plus, the STGE4 is now shipping out to distributors and soon to shops with its ability to accept AR magazines. The STG barrel is flutted that allows it to cool better. The STG has the extra vent slot cut in the right side of the receiver allowing it to cool better. The STG has drain holes in the stock allowing water that could be trapped upon submersion to be drained. The side rail on the STG doesn't cover the vent slots in the receiver when you place lights on it. The STG now has a toolless and improved ejection port cover. STG parts are bit easier and less expensive right now to obtain. We have STG guys here basically everyday.
The FS2000 is a great rifle. The problem with it is in the overly complicated bolt IMHO. Hard to beat the simplicity of the AUG design and of course the FS2000 doesn't have the quick change barrel option. You also don't get the Last Round Bolt Hold Option with the FS2000. You do get the ability to do a weak side transition with ease, but the trigger isn't as nice and you can't do a chamber check easily during your reloads. With the FS2000 you can't use polymer magazines unless you can at some point get a Magpul EMAG. Lancer magazines, P-Mags, and M-Mags will not fit in the magwell of the FS2000 well enough. FNH still hasn't made available their foregrip rail that they showed at SHOT. Monolith is slow with their foregrips. You can't get parts for the FNH FS2000 either every time you have something happen to your FS2000 you have to ship it at your expense to the factory. The FS2000 has a pinned "muzzle break" and a longer OAL as well. Plus, you're talking about a "thumbhole" stock instead of an actual pistol grip. No VFG comes with the FS2000 either and IMHO you need a VFG for a rifle that short. |
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Parts are no problem with the FS2000! FNforums has a complete parts list in a sticky and FN has not hesitated to ship whatever spare parts I've ordered. Granted, some of the parts are pricey, but they are available.
I like the MSAR but I'm a lefty and won't pay $300 for a left handed bolt with no credit for the deletion of the right handed bolt. |
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Parts are no problem with the FS2000! FNforums has a complete parts list in a sticky and FN has not hesitated to ship whatever spare parts I've ordered. Granted, some of the parts are pricey, but they are available. I like the MSAR but I'm a lefty and won't pay $300 for a left handed bolt with no credit for the deletion of the right handed bolt. You may be able to ask for a swap out of the right handed bolt for the left. If you were really interested in the MSAR it sure wouldn't hurt asking, plus I am sure they would appreciate business from the lefties  Maybe someone from MSAR will chime in soon.
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| The new AUG is the most expensive (about $2300 if you can find one) and the pre-bans are way up there (around $3000+). The FN's can be had from anywhere from $1700 (used) to $2200 (for a new standard model with the integral optic which own I paid $2100 OTD brand new). The MSAR is running about $1600 (if you are lucky) to $1900 used to new. You might want consider one with an optic if do not already have one to throw on there. That can add a lot of money. The FN standard has an optic and rails as well if you want to add your own optic later. The MSAR also has this option. I do not think new Steyr's do. The prices I quote are what you should pay as there are a lot out there with higher but are gouger prices. Good luck and keep us posted. BTW the FN has a real flash hider not a break. Take look at it some time. It's not the same one as the F2000 but it is a flash hider. I had my gunsmith here in CT (JOJO's) who makes muzzle breaks confirm this as I was going replace it with a Vortex. Also I have fired it at night and no huge flash. Not the best but certainley not a break. |
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Preban Augsburg have since dropped in price and you can find one for 2500-2700
MSAR is the cheapest and seems to be a good rifle, it made from all newly designed parts and as such still has a few minor kinks. I have seen/ heard great things about MSARs customer service in handling problems TPD makes a great rifle that uses almost all Aug parts and allows you to use Ar15 magazines but it only comes in right handed due to the lack of a window in the NATO stock Also, they hand make every rifle, so you will be waiting a while to get it Their customer service also sounds to be great Sabre Defense contracted Steyr Aug a3 it's the newest rifle on the block as Aug types go not many people on this board own them yet but so far so good seems to be the common view Pete Athens has said he's passed a few thousand rounds through one so far without errors it is the most expensive one right now because it's brand new but it's just as high quality as all the others and carries the Steyr name FN Fs2000s are pretty good rifles, I used to have one and I payed 1850 for it making it the second cheapest to the MSAR mine always functioned reliably but i was careful with it because it's almost all polymer I ended up breakingy charging handle but the rifle still worked ergonomics were good on it but it seemed a little fat as far as accuracy goes, I've only tried a preban aug and an fs2000 I borrowed a preban aug for about three months and the accuracy was surprisingly good for the donut sight and me shooting right handed (I'm left handed my Fs2000 shot better but again it's probably because I could shoot it left handed (ejects up front) and I had an aimpoint on it I hope some of that helps |
| My AUG A3 just came in today and I wouldnt have done it different. After handling both the STG and the A3 I think the A3 is nicer but whether its worth the extra $800 is something you would have to determine. I would take the A3 of the E4 anyday though. I really really dont like the textured stock and I like the rail on the A3 better. |
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I fell in love with the AUG from the first time I saw it a few decades ago. It is a svelte looking rifle. The FS2000 looks like a loaf of bread.  Loaf of bread!!! 
svelte? I vote AUG for various reasons listed. One thing few people mention and I did not realize until I got mine is the mag release on the AXR is the best thing since sliced bread. It is were the bolt release is on the Steyr and the MSAR. I can change mags just as fast, or maybe faster, than my XCR. It's not that big of a deal, but people always complain about slow mag changes on the AUG platform. I can't really compare to the FS2000 as I have never played with one outside the fun shop. I am sure whichever way you go you will be happy. P.S. Does anyone know does the MSAR E4 have a bolt release on the side? |
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MSAR is the cheapest and seems to be a good rifle, it made from all newly designed parts and as such still has a few minor kinks. I have seen/ heard great things about MSARs customer service in handling problems TPD makes a great rifle that uses almost all Aug parts and allows you to use Ar15 magazines but it only comes in right handed due to the lack of a window in the NATO stock Also, they hand make every rifle, so you will be waiting a while to get it Their customer service also sounds to be great I don't know if this is intended to read this way, but this seems to imply that MSARs might have some minor issues, but the TPDs do not. If that's what you meant to say, then I would have to disagree and cite this poor fella's issues. |
| Dave has said that he will replace right hand bolts with left hand ones just give him a call (zach this week Dave is out of the office). Yes the E4 will have a last round hold open and bolt release. Lastly, our new rail will be lower and longer but not quite as long as the A3's. Yes you will be able to put your sling under it but just incase you want some flexibility in location, the E4 will also ship with an Uncle Mike's adaptor which will fit into any of the rail mounting points. |
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MSAR is the cheapest and seems to be a good rifle, it made from all newly designed parts and as such still has a few minor kinks. I have seen/ heard great things about MSARs customer service in handling problems TPD makes a great rifle that uses almost all Aug parts and allows you to use Ar15 magazines but it only comes in right handed due to the lack of a window in the NATO stock Also, they hand make every rifle, so you will be waiting a while to get it Their customer service also sounds to be great I don't know if this is intended to read this way, but this seems to imply that MSARs might have some minor issues, but the TPDs do not. If that's what you meant to say, then I would have to disagree and cite this poor fella's issues. I was assuming the opwould have stumbled upon the three part issue with his tpd axrs in this forum already but yes they do also have some kinks to work out at TPD |
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I was assuming the opwould have stumbled upon the three part issue with his tpd axrs in this forum already but yes they do also have some kinks to work out at TPD I went back in the forum a year or so looking for good pictures yesterday and found a bunch of AXR threads from owners who had fired hundreds of trouble free rounds. Every once in a while a dog gets out from every company. |
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Dave has said that he will replace right hand bolts with left hand ones just give him a call (zach this week Dave is out of the office). Yes the E4 will have a last round hold open and bolt release. Lastly, our new rail will be lower and longer but not quite as long as the A3's. Yes you will be able to put your sling under it but just incase you want some flexibility in location, the E4 will also ship with an Uncle Mike's adaptor which will fit into any of the rail mounting points. How many inches long is the new rail? |
My rifle is not fat. She is "Big Boned"  Seriously though I think the "chunkiness" of the the FN is one of it's more attractive aspects. It's deceivingly light and handles and balances extremley well. Just like an AUG which I also owned. I would go as far to say it's lighter or a least feels that way.
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My rifle is not fat. She is "Big Boned" Seriously though I think the "chunkiness" of the the FN is one of it's more attractive aspects. It's deceivingly light and handles and balances extremely well. Just like an AUG which I also owned. I would go as far to say it's lighter or a least feels that way.an Aug weighs 8.3lbs Fn Fs2000 weighs 7.9lbs so you are right on that one and the fatness of the rifle isn't really that bad, i just have relatively short fingers all in all, the Fn FS2000 is right up there with any Aug variant or the Aug it self You just have to ask yourself a few questions How much money do i have/want to spend? Do i need special accommodation? (left handed) How much extra will that cost? Do i want/ can i afford proprietary magazines? (the cost of an Aug or MSAR magazine is double and then some of that of an m4/m16/ar15 type magazine) Do i want a certain Barrel twist? (An Aug A3 has a 1:9 barrel twist, the MSAR 1:8 i believe. The TPD AXR has a 1:8 as well. If i remember correctly the FS2000 has a 1:7 twist) All of these weapons have expensive replacement parts, should they break out of warranty (shooting reloads, etc) |
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Wait wait wait.... The FS2000 takes AR mags? Well that changes everything, I have a shit ton of those things laying around. Yay... now to save 2 grand... haha yes it takes any milspec aluminum/steel non polymer ar15 magazine it definately drops the price of the weapon system when it takes ar15 magazines the TPD AXR also takes ar15 magazines |
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Wait wait wait.... The FS2000 takes AR mags? Well that changes everything, I have a shit ton of those things laying around. Yay... now to save 2 grand... haha yes it takes any milspec aluminum/steel non polymer ar15 magazine it definately drops the price of the weapon system when it takes ar15 magazines the TPD AXR also takes ar15 magazines Hey don't tell me that... I HAD decided but you had to go and mess that up. |
| The fact that the FN took AR mags was the major factor in my choice. As I had mentioned before I had owned an AUG and during that time it was very hard to find mags and if I did they were very expensive. The new MSAR E4 will take AR mags but I have a feeling that they will be very hard to obtain for a while. Whatever you decide on you cannot go wrong, they are all high quality weapons. Don't forget the optic factor! Sometimes they can cost you as much as the rifle itself. |
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The fact that the FN took AR mags was the major factor in my choice. As I had mentioned before I had owned an AUG and during that time it was very hard to find mags and if I did they were very expensive. The new MSAR E4 will take AR mags but I have a feeling that they will be very hard to obtain for a while. Whatever you decide on you cannot go wrong, they are high quality weapons. Don't forget the optic factor! Sometimes they can cost you as much as the rifle itself. I don't think they'll be hard to find. After all the anticipation of the Steyr AUG A3, you can go on GunBroker right now and pick one up. I always like to wait for a new weapon to get wrung out before making the leap anyway. It may run 100% out of the box, but there's always someone out there who will find the one tiny little quirk that will cause an issue. That person used to be me until I learned patience.
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The FS2000 is a pretty slick rifle.
I like the fact that it takes GI mags, the warranty is pretty good and the railed version is easy to mount optics to. You can change the front grip like Judo Chop. He has a pretty slick setup. The MSAR is pretty good too. They are coming up with a version that takes USGI mags. It is called the E4. Max |
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an Aug weighs 8.3lbs Fn Fs2000 weighs 7.9lbs so you are right on that one and the fatness of the rifle isn't really that bad, i just have relatively short fingers all in all, the Fn FS2000 is right up there with any Aug variant or the Aug it self You just have to ask yourself a few questions How much money do i have/want to spend? Do i need special accommodation? (left handed) How much extra will that cost? Do i want/ can i afford proprietary magazines? (the cost of an Aug or MSAR magazine is double and then some of that of an m4/m16/ar15 type magazine) Do i want a certain Barrel twist? (An Aug A3 has a 1:9 barrel twist, the MSAR 1:8 i believe. The TPD AXR has a 1:8 as well. If i remember correctly the FS2000 has a 1:7 twist) All of these weapons have expensive replacement parts, should they break out of warranty (shooting reloads, etc) The AUG A3 weights 8.15 lbs with one empty magazine. The STG 556 weights 7.2 lbs with one empty magazine. The FS2000 weights 7.58 lbs with one empty magazine. However, the FS2000 has a 17.44" barrel length. Whereas, the Steyr AUG A3 has a 16" barrel length. You do not have the quick change barrel option for the FS2000 either. The FS2000 is 29.29" in overall length. The Steyr AUG A3 is 28.25" in overall length. The FS2000 also comes with a 1:7 twist barrel and the Steyr AUG A3 comes with a 1:9 twist barrel. This should be a key distinction to anyone looking at which of these two rifles to purchase since it will effect stability and accuracy of the rounds you want to fire most often. Unlike the STG-556 that has the medium ground 1:8 twist with the FS2000 and the Steyr AUG A3 you have the choose between either a faster twist for heavier rounds or a slower twist for your lighter rounds. The STG-556 also has a shorter overall length than both at 27". |
| I have done side by side MSAR to AUG inspections and the MSAR's appear to be constructed better, I was surprised by the quality of assembly and finish; I prefer American craftsmanship over anything. I don't think MSAR makes a long barrel version yet? At least do a side by side comparison and make your decision. |
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The STG-556 was produced in 20" barrel versions and you can purchase just the 20" barrel. A 24" Heavy Barrel is also available for the STG-556. Those barrels can be quick changed out hot or cold in about a minute with no tools required.
The 20" STG-556 rifles are available over at Ratworx USA for instance and you can find 20" barrels on a pretty regular basis available for sale on gunbroker. |
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I have done side by side MSAR to AUG inspections and the MSAR's appear to be constructed better, I was surprised by the quality of assembly and finish; I prefer American craftsmanship over anything. I don't think MSAR makes a long barrel version yet? At least do a side by side comparison and make your decision. I strongly disagree with that. Not dogging the MSAR rifles at all but the MSAR is not as nice as the AUG. |
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I have done side by side MSAR to AUG inspections and the MSAR's appear to be constructed better, I was surprised by the quality of assembly and finish; I prefer American craftsmanship over anything. I don't think MSAR makes a long barrel version yet? At least do a side by side comparison and make your decision. I strongly disagree with that. Not dogging the MSAR rifles at all but the MSAR is not as nice as the AUG. You have both? I can't imagine the AUG being $500-$700 nicer, especially considering the customer service at MSAR. Steyr USA can't even give a straight or reliable answer on their own products.... |
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I have done side by side MSAR to AUG inspections and the MSAR's appear to be constructed better, I was surprised by the quality of assembly and finish; I prefer American craftsmanship over anything. I don't think MSAR makes a long barrel version yet? At least do a side by side comparison and make your decision. I strongly disagree with that. Not dogging the MSAR rifles at all but the MSAR is not as nice as the AUG. You have both? I can't imagine the AUG being $500-$700 nicer, especially considering the customer service at MSAR. Steyr USA can't even give a straight or reliable answer on their own products.... I do not own both but a buddy owns a STG. I have been messing with his STG for the past couple of weeks. Took it to the range a few times. From handling both I would never say the STG is constructed better, ever. He was as impressed with the A3 as I was. MSAR has great customer service but too many people have to use it. I would rather never have to deal with the CS department of a company. That is my preference. The parts are standardized with the AUG as well. I have read a couple of different threads, I dont remember from where, but the OP's had trouble getting hammer packs to interchange within the same generation STG. Standardization of parts, systems and methods is a BIG deal. There is a global organization dedicated to it called ISO. Nobody wants to deal with non standardized parts. Now that issue may be cleared up now I dont know. I like what MSAR is doing but I just dont feel they produce an equivalent product despite their superior CS. I believe as their product evolves it will get all the little issues out and be a great rifle at a great price with great customer service. Regardless whether anyone believes the AUG is $500-$700 nicer is irrelevant to my disagreement with core781. He said he believed the STG was better constructed. I said it certainly was not. Price was never mentioned. This board has an unhealthy bias towards the STG. This bias fosters a lack of objectivity. |
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This board has an unhealthy bias towards the STG. This bias fosters a lack of objectivity.[/quote]
I hear that! There is definatley a bias towards the STG. I am not ripping on the STG but there are other quality bullpups out there. I owned a bullpup long before most people even knew what they were and have always been a fan of the design but to blind yourself to everything but one product borders on fanaticism. |
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Yes, but it's not an unfair bias and its not an unsupported bias. I certainly wouldn't call it a "blind...fanaticism."
I think it speaks highly of the STG-556 that it has such a large and loyal fan base. That doesn't come out of nowhere. It is earned through providing a product that folks are pleased with. Before the FS2000 first came out I really did get excited about it and I gave it a serious look (this was before the STG and AUG A3 or AXR were even available). The forward ejection was obvious a major selling point, but the rifle while having that amazing feature gives up many features some of us really like. The lack of the last round bolt hold open, the lack of a vertical foregrip, the pinned muzzle break and 17.4" barrel, the complex bolt, the inability to work a chamber check into a regular reload, the inability to accept polymer magazines, the thumbhole stock, and on and on. I also had a chance to look at the hammer pack for the FS2000 and I have to say as an AUG owner I was not impressed with the polymer of the hammer pack on the FS2000. I have seen pictures of FS2000 hammer packs that have outlived their service life and that's not a common thing with Steyr AUG hammer packs and my STG hammer pack seems to me a bit more substantial as well. Now those are all "little things," but they add-up when you're looking to plop down around $2K for a rifle. The forward ejection is pretty cool. I think folks have to know all the facts though when they're looking to spend as much as I did for my first car (yeah, I'm old). I like FNH. I own a PS90, and I want an FNP45 Tactical when they're available, but the FS2000 just isn't doing it for me right now. YMMV. |
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There is some bias going on, and it is a bad thing.
This is Technical Forum. Having an overwhelming personal opinion when you don't own, or have never physically handled the weapon in question is blasphemy and should not be included in this forum. However, people like Silent type and a few others offer specs and reasons for their opinions Even though informative, people interested in a certain weapon should reserve judgement until they can see/ handle the weapon in question. This board can and does give people the wrong ideas and information but thankfully a handful of people can turn it around |
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Well, if you want to talk to an FS2000 owner I would message JudoChop. He's had an FS2000 for awhile and he loves the thing.
I would also talk to TOMAC. He owns both the FS2000 and the STG556. I've spoken my peace and I own an STG-556 that I love. I think that would give you a pretty good perspective overall. |
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I read an article today stating that fs2000 mags will fit the ar15 but only some of the ar mags will fit the fs2000. I don't remember which magazine I read it in. I guess that's not entirely false... Fs2000 magazines are ar15 magazines, so they fit in ar15s. However, due to the rubber gasket and tighter magazine well in the 2000, no polymer ar15 mags will fit in it well. I did manage to get a pmag into my fs2000 but was hell to take out |
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Yes, but it's not an unfair bias and its not an unsupported bias. I certainly wouldn't call it a "blind...fanaticism." I think it speaks highly of the STG-556 that it has such a large and loyal fan base. That doesn't come out of nowhere. It is earned through providing a product that folks are pleased with. Before the FS2000 first came out I really did get excited about it and I gave it a serious look (this was before the STG and AUG A3 or AXR were even available). The forward ejection was obvious a major selling point, but the rifle while having that amazing feature gives up many features some of us really like. The lack of the last round bolt hold open, the lack of a vertical foregrip, the pinned muzzle break and 17.4" barrel, the complex bolt, the inability to work a chamber check into a regular reload, the inability to accept polymer magazines, the thumbhole stock, and on and on. I also had a chance to look at the hammer pack for the FS2000 and I have to say as an AUG owner I was not impressed with the polymer of the hammer pack on the FS2000. I have seen pictures of FS2000 hammer packs that have outlived their service life and that's not a common thing with Steyr AUG hammer packs and my STG hammer pack seems to me a bit more substantial as well. Now those are all "little things," but they add-up when you're looking to plop down around $2K for a rifle. The forward ejection is pretty cool. I think folks have to know all the facts though when they're looking to spend as much as I did for my first car (yeah, I'm old). I like FNH. I own a PS90, and I want an FNP45 Tactical when they're available, but the FS2000 just isn't doing it for me right now. YMMV. Silent pretty well nailed how I feel about it. I really wanted to like the FS2K but after doing a side-by-side w/the STG there just wasn't any comparison for me (YMMV). While the STG is my current fav I try to be open-minded about other possibilities and don't trash other people's choices unless I have facts or personal experience to share that might be of use to others (hey, if an AXR or Steyr or FS2K or M17S or [insert fav rifle here] works for you then great!). For example, I haven't had hands-on experience w/an AR for over 20yrs (blasphemy!) due to bad experiences I'd had with them in the decades previous. My visiting son had questions about the AR so I arranged for us to try 3 different AR setups this weekend. We both came away with the exact same impression: "unimpressed" (especially when all 3 experienced the same stuck casing malfunction when using Silver Bear that I occasionally have in the STG's). For us they just didn't handle as well as the STG & muzzle rise was greater. Does that mean AR's are "bad"? No. I just means that the AR doesn't suit our particular needs as well as the STG does. And if the STG should prove lacking for whatever reason I'll dump it in a heartbeat and replace it with something that's (hopefully) better and be the first to post about it. While I have had teething problems w/3 of the 4 STG's I have personal experience with (mostly due to the earlier extractor design) and the 4th needed an immediate trip back to MSAR for FTE's right out of the box I can say that right now all 4 are 100% w/brass cased ammo, both older STG's are very nearly 100% w/steel cased ammo (see my range report on a recent 2-day carbine class) and the other 2 newer STG's have occasional stuck casings w/steel cased ammo (and this is improving w/time). I suppose you could say I have a slight bias towards the STG but if so that's only because there is currently nothing else out there that will serve my needs as well for the same price point. JMHO... Tomac |
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Wait wait wait.... The FS2000 takes AR mags? Well that changes everything, I have a shit ton of those things laying around. Yay... now to save 2 grand... haha yes it takes any milspec aluminum/steel non polymer ar15 magazine it definately drops the price of the weapon system when it takes ar15 magazines the TPD AXR also takes ar15 magazines Hey don't tell me that... I HAD decided but you had to go and mess that up. If you're ever up in DFW on a weekend, shoot me an IM and you can try both a TPD and an FS2000.
Both the TPD and the FS2000 take STANAG-style magazines. In that sense, FN played it really close to the standard, and only the metal-type STANAG mags fit. TPD will fit any of the polymers. Is this an issue? Not for me. I have a lot of upgraded USGI that work just as well as the fancy polymer mags. Don't let something so stupid as "it doesn't take the tacticool polymer magazine of the week" decide your purchase. The non-drop-free magazine well is a non-issue for me as well. European design philosophies tend to eschew that for some reason, fundamental difference in tactical doctrine. You adapt and move on. The accuracy of both is pretty close, and superb in any case. Triggers are both "bullpup" like, which is a musssssh-sproing sensation. Trigger tamer will fit the TPD, but I haven't bothered as I'm not negatively impacted in any way. Feel-wise, I think the FS2000 wins in the ergonomics. It's very very naturally balanced and quick pointing. If it weighs more than the TPD, it doesn't feel like it. Safety on the FS2000 is a little easier to use where it is placed. Optics height on either fits the gun well. Never did any "height over bore" measurements, but it is my opinion either gun could quickly get "too high" on the offset and make the optics suck. Just pick your mounts carefully. I "had" a PK-AS-W optic on the FS2000, and my TPD is an early model that shipped with the 1-4x scope. I think that sort of low-power/variable-power optic is perfect for these carbines. The PK-AS-W red dot was nice, but adjustments were a PITA, and it sat high. After the initial "OMG price rush" is done with the new Trijicon TR24, I think I'm going to put one of those on the FS2000. The quick-change barrel is a nice feature on the TPD, but it wasn't a factor in my decision to buy it. (American-made AUG that takes STANAG mags? Sweet!) I find the folks saying "well, if you wanted to change barrel twist on the fly, you could!" to be silly. I don't need to hump around two barrels with different twists. The advantage here would be the longer barrels, but the downside is cost. From TPD, a spare barrel runs about $600 or so. More for Steyr. No idea about MSAR, I don't drink that koolaid. The price is fair for what work/effort goes into them, but it is a factor in me not having a spare barrel around. Reliability on both has been flawless. TPD short-stroked on my first magazine with .223 spec ammo, but hasn't had a problem with it since. Don't take the knocks on the FS2000 polymer trigger packs; TPD, Steyr, and most other bullpups have them. I haven't seen any unusual wear on them that concerns me. The gas adjustment on the FS2000 is a little easier, but I suspect the TPD will loosen over time. I run both in the "usual" gas settings for normal ammo. The charging handle on the TPD is sturdier, and has a built-in forward assist. I don't think it is so sturdy as to function as a "kick start" handle like an AK, but it'll handle a lot. The handle of the FS2000 feels a little weaker, and could be a breakage point, as others have noted. Mine hasn't broken, though it would be nice to see a metal replacement here. The "switch" in the action is a little unusual, but it makes the magic happen with the case extraction, and I haven't seen any wear or breakage with mine. It gets dirty being around the chamber, lots of gunpowder and brass. In either case, you can't go wrong. Both are the "crown jewels" of my collection. Kent and his team at TPD are top-notch, and definitely customer-oriented. FNH is huge and one of the world's largest gun makers. Then again, I've talked to Kent on the phone, I doubt I could ever get the CEO of FN to talk to me without having a multi-million dollar contract first. Bob Ailes, the guy you'd talk to if your FN guns ever break, is pretty nice though.
So that doesn't help a lot, eh? I shoot the TPD more at the moment. And I like TPD a whole lot based on my interactions with them. But the FS2000 is pretty sweet too. |
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That was one of the best comparisons I have ever read. Good job Findsman.
I would keep your eye out for a Trigger Tamer. I put one on mine and love it. I am assuming that this is the optic you were talking about. What did you think of it? 
http://www.tpdusa.com/proddetail.php?prod=1-4x_Optic |
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That was one of the best comparisons I have ever read. Good job Findsman. I would keep your eye out for a Trigger Tamer. I put one on mine and love it. I am assuming that this is the optic you were talking about. What did you think of it? http://www.tpdusa.com/prodimages/catimages/scope.jpg http://www.tpdusa.com/proddetail.php?prod=1-4x_Optic Ha, thanks for the kind words. I try to spread information when possible. Don't tempt me with the Trigger Tamer! My first bullpups being the PS90 and FS2000, I got used to the mush-sproing trigger. I'll have to look for one, but I just started paperwork on a SBR Mk18-ish project, so it may have to wait a bit.
That indeed is the optic. Dang, my early-AXR is an even better deal now that I see what the scope runs! Initially I thought I was going to replace it with something "tacticool" like an ACOG, as I love that low-power magnification. After shooting it a while, I'm really pleased with it. It holds zero well going from 1.25 to 4, optic is clear, and the little battery-powered red dot helps at the indoor range I usually shoot at. (Geez guys, I'll buy you the lightbulbs!) I thought I had an issue with it on my first trip - I was shooting for a while when I noticed my groups turning into patterns. I was thinking either the gun or the scope were FUBAR. Turns out the ring mounts came loose.  Little bit of locktite and haven't had a problem since!
It's a great scope, in my opinion. Is it as awesome as Leupold or Trijicon or some other big brand? Maybe, maybe not, but it also has a cost measured in fractions of what those cost, for largely the same functionality. I'm happy as can be. As I said, I think the variable low-power scopes are perfect for these carbines. ETA - And honestly, that makes a lot of sense for my FS2000 too. Hmm...this may be a shorter path than waiting to save the scratch for the TR24! |
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Well, I went to my local Ma and Pop gunstore today and they were pretty well stocked compared to the last few months so that tells me at least in my local the Obama panic is starting to subside. So prices will start to become slightly better for the consumer and as long as "cap and trade" and "health care" are still in the Congress we're free and clear of an AWB unless some crazy mass shooting happens.
Should be able to find the bullpup you want at a decent price right now or very soon. What ever the choice just make sure you take advantage of the weather this summer to shoot it and get used to the change in the manual of arms from standard config ARs you might be used to. There are some subtle difference that I've embraced and adapted to my training. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - First bullpup (Page 1 of 2)
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