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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bushmaster M17s (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 7/5/2007 12:52:16 PM EDT
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So Id be interested in what you guys think of the M17s http://army.lt/guns/gallery/B37.jpg I was thinking of picking one up at my local gun store. |
| I always thought they were kinda cool, since there weren't a lot of bullpups around years ago. If I were to get one now, I'd send it to Kurt's Kustom Firearms to have the ridiculous carry handle removed and a rail put on top. I'd only mount like an EOTech or something on top, with no iron sights. |
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+1 on Kurt's... he is the MAN for M17 mods. I have an M17s. I like it for what it is. With some minor (and some not so minor) mods, I believe it would make a perfectly acceptable combat weapon. As they come from the factory... ehh. The trigger, while quite acceptable for a bullpup - feels heavy and mushy. No real definition to it. No clean break, and quite rough overall. Again, this could be fixed. On the other hand, my Bushy M17s has been incredibly reliable. As with most of my other weapons, I feed everything and anything I can get my hands on through it, with nary a hiccup. Again - with the proper mods, the M17s can be a winner... but bone stock, I like mine for nothing more than its uniqueness and compatibility with my proper ARs. It's more an every-once-in-a-while at the range kinda gun... at least for me. Just my 2c. |
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Thanks for the reply. Agree'd on all of the above and I have been researching those issues. I've wanted one for about 6 months now and missed out on one at a gun show. I'll pick it up tomorrow. I have a red dot scope for it already and I plan on putting a full rail on it as well. |
Here's a response I've posted before to similar questions:
Here's what mine currently looks like:  Is is SHORTER than my 10.5" SBR AR, but doesn't require a tax stamp, because the barrel is almost 18". It has better balance than my SBR, and has a piston gas system.  Here's a pic showing it next to my 10.5" SBR. Notice the M17 is as short as the SBR with stock closed. Once the stock is extended, the SBR is significantly longer. (Did I mention that no tax stamp is required for my M17, but a stamp is required for my longer AR  ) (Btw - both can fit in my tennis racket bag at the same time )
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I came so close to buying one of these awhile back and then handled one at a gunshow and lost interest. i didn't like the feel and I thought the trigger was horrible. I then stumbled across Kurt's website and saw the mods he can do and almost revisted the idea but with the price of the M17s and then the mods I decided to get another AR15 instead. No regrets about it yet although a modded out M17s sure looks sweet.....DK
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Thanks And that is a really good point. The M17S is not a "cheap" alternative. One you get the bugs fixed, it will end up costing about as much as a decent AR. But, it is still cheaper than more pricey bullpups on the market, like the FN2000 and the SteyrAUG. Hopefully, more bullpups will come on the market in the next few years, but until then, I still like the modded M17s
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You could always move to Canada and buy a Tavor.  I think with a bit more development and marketing, Bushmaster could have done very well with the M17S. Unfortunately, the initial bad press and inability to be fired left handed have doomed it to being nothing more than an interesting footnote in firearm history. ETA here's a nice comparson shot to show just how compact a modded M17S can be (the AR has a 16" barrel):  BTW, the green M17S is KKF modded, but the black one isn't (it was done by an arfcommer). |
From what I've seen, between $800 and $900, but you can find them on gunbroker for between $600 and $700. Additionally, you're looking at $200-$400 for all the KKF mods, plus a couple of months for him to do the work. Even so, that's still about $800 less than a FS2K (and half the price of a Tavor for you lucky Canucks). If you have the patience, your best bet is to keep an eye on the equipment exchange; I've seen two KKF modded M17S' go for around $1000 in the last 6 months, and several stock M17S' for around $600. You can also check the M17S Yahoo group, but membership is closed, so you have to get their permission to join (kinda lame). Finally, you can check the KKF forums, which sometimes has a M17S for sale. And yes, I've got a thing for bullpups.
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i'd say they were one of the best bullpups available to the US market--they usually worked, but i heard a few too many lemons bushy could have done a lot better in spiffing it up (sights suck, ergos are rough, etc)...since bushy discontinued em, along w/ the rising prices, lack of parts, i'd just skip em |
I don't think it's lame. This is to keep spammers out. Sorry if this presents too much of an obstacle for you to negotiate. Anyone who ever started or participated in an open-membership Yahoo group knows excactly what I mean. |
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I would like to report I picked it up, and took it to the range today. Definitely needs optics, the rail at the top needs to be extended 12 inches with iron sites front and rear. It shot very well, in fact I was shooting 200 yards with the stock iron sites and heard the gong ring! Trigger felt OK, but it was no ar-15 but I can live with it. It is now apart from my bushmaster collection and I'm quite happy about that. For now I'll just put a red dot scope on it until I get a rail put on it. Its always nice to have friends with machine shops :) |
Funny, I run a yahoo group (this one FWIW); our membership is open, we have well over 400 members, average somewhere between 2-3 hundred posts a month, and we don't seem to have a spam problem. If you want some pointers, feel free to drop me a line. |
Welcome to the club! Once you've petitioned the wizard and gained admittance to the M17S frat house, check out the trigger mod guides. It's pretty easy to do, and makes a big difference in the smoothness of the pull. If you have access to a drill press, removing the carry handle and replacing it with a rail should be a snap. If you decide to shorten the rifle, just remember that the minimal overall length has to be greater than 26" (practically, what this means is that you can only cut the barrel down to ~18.5"). 
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I thought the M17 was great, because of the short length, but that it needed some mods. I was contemplating haveing Kurt do the mods, because all I hear is that he does great work, but I heard he takes months to get something done. Plus, he couldn't do one of the mods I wanted. So I took the time and did all the mods in my machine shop. What I wanted was a Left side charging handle. I asked kurt to design a left side charging handle like the Tavor, or FS2000 - He declined as "it is not profitable to design a modification for an obsolete weapon." I took it upon myself to do the R & D - the rifle is not refinished yet. Check the pictures - I don't know how to post, so you get links. http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z315/salteragency/IMG_1666.jpg http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z315/salteragency/IMG_1667.jpg http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z315/salteragency/IMG_1668.jpg $350 gets you the mod, a refinished rifle (sand blasted - then duracoated in Black, OD green, Brown, or Tan) and I ship the rifle back to you. Somebody also said something earlier about no lefty version. A friend of mine wants a M17, but can't get one because he is a lefty. He contacted BM when the pup was still being made, and asked them if they were going to make a southpaw version, they said no. I did the R & D, and now you can get a lefty M17 with the right side ejection port covered. The cost for this mod is $150, and if you want it refinish it'll be $250 for the mod and refinish (sand blast then Duracoat in Black, OD Green, Brown, or Tan) and I ship the rifle back to you. I think the M17 is a winner for the Battle rifle competition (when the mods are made). I'd take a moded M17 over an semi-auto AR anyday - in full auto the AR would win, as there is no full auto M17. Mine is very reliable, and accurate with the long sige base. I love the pup, and I'd say get one as soon as you can, and get some mods done to it. Sterling 605-352-1455 |
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Isn't the M16/AR popularity about it being American made, instead of forien stuff. The FS is great, but it's not american made. The M17 is American, and granted that doesn't make it better, just the fact is nice, and comforting. I myself would have bought a FS2000, but the price was two high, and I cound't find one on a personal sale, so I bought a M17, and I am way happy with it. I prefer to by American - don't we all. I think it is the coolest rifle I ever bought, even better than my RRA mid-length AR, which I sold. The M17 has some faults, but they are not a consern now with mods being done by Kurt and Me. Sterling |
No thanks, don't need to fix what ain't broke. |
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I love my M-17s, I really do think it's one of the most underrated rifles that was on the market when it was made (especially during the ban). Don't really have anything else to add that hasn't been covered, just wanted to thow another positive voice in the thread. |
Fixed it for ya'! |
My opinion is that the chances are between slim and none.  Right now, they are cranking out ARs and making tons of money with that cash cow. There's no real reason for them to spend R&D money on trying to tweak a design that would have to compete with the F2000 and a possible SteyrAUG and others. If they put in more development, the price would go up - and it would be less of a sweet deal. |
Never say never, but I sort of doubt it. With the recent trend of US firearms companies importing foreign guns and marketing them as their own (ala the Croatian HS2000 becoming the Springfield XD and the Turkish Zigana becoming the Armalite AR-24) I would sort of like to see Bushmaster import parts kits for SAR-21 from Singapore, build them on a US receiver and Barrel and market them as the "New Bushmaster Bullpup". Don't really think that would happen either, but the long and the short of it is if Bushmaster builds a new bullpup, be it a M17s gen II or an import, I'd buy it. |
It's a shame, too. Add a few rails and totally tacti-cool looking milled-in slots, and I bet it would sell again. |
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StallionComputers: What sights are those? I like the modifications you did, it improves the looks as well as the functional. Am I reading it right that you will do all those mods for $350? If so and if I can find a used one for a decent price, you will probably be hearing from me. I agree with everybody that it isn't as well thought out as a FN 2000. But it ain't $2k either. $2k will buy a bunch of toys. As much as I love the AR platfrom (I have 5 built and parts for 2 more), I am always looking for other rifles to play with. |
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Also, something else jumped out at me comparing my FS2k with my M17s, The M17s has a 21.5" barrel while the FS2k has a 17.37" barrel. Stands to reason that the FS2000 would be about 4" shorter then the stock M17s right? Wrong the M17s has an OAL just a hair over 30", the FS2k has an oal of 29.12". Just thought it was interesting that the older design manages to more efficently integrate a longer barrel into a rifle with less 'dead' space. M17s: .716" barrel length/ 1" overall length FS2k: .596" barrel length/ 1" overalll length Just thought I'd throw that out there. |
It's unlikely (and I've never seen one), because converting the M17 to a lefty configuration would be a hassle. Part of the reason is that there are rails in the upper receiver that guide the bolt carrier, and they are attached to the (inside) left side of the upper receiver. So converting it is more complicated than cutting an ejection port and switching a bolt - but would involve moving those rails to the right side as well (and attaching them would potentially be problematic, because of the hole of the existing ejection port. Not an expert on this - but I think the logistical problem is enough that I doubt anyone has done it. I have no doubt it's possible, and someone like Kurt Wala could probably do it if he wanted to (and if someone paid him enough money), but it would probably make it more expensive than a f2000 or Steyr AUG.
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Actually DK, if you read StallionComputers post, he's managed to do a lefty mod, which is what dport was asking about. As for comparing the FS2K to the M17S, not only is the M17 smaller overall (despite having a longer barrel), I'd be willing to bet that the tensioned barrel system makes it more accurate as well. The FS2K does have a weight advantage over the stock M17S, but this goes away once you chop 4" off the front of the Bushmaster, leaving you with a smaller, lighter gun that still has a longer barrel (and costs about half as much). BTW, if anybody is interested, there's one on gunbroker right now for $560.  
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Whoops - well that just makes me a total dumbass!!  I saw the left charging handle, and thought it was awesome , but missed the part about the lefty ejection mod being possible. 
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Ihon, Here is a price list for the mods: Installation / Conversion Pricing $350 Left Side Charging Handle Conversion $200 Sight Rail with Sights Installed $100 Sight Rail Installed no sights $125 Receiver shortened, Cut and rethread bbl to stock bbl nuts $100 Cooling Slots - HK G36 Style $90 Install muzzle brake – special design - 30% less recoil $150 Left Eject $250 Left Eject with refinish $100 Forward Grip Installation with lower rail $90 Forward Grip Installation no lower rail – rail already installed $100 Refinish your upper in Duracoat – Do not send Lower receiver $50 Refinish your Pistol Slide – Do not send receiver A left eject mod is really not that complicated. The early M17 had no internal rail. It was added later to aid in proper functioning of the bolt during cycling. Most of the rail is still intact with this mod, so it still will aid the bolt to keep is steady. I have no pics for left eject. I'll take some after a conversion in the future. Thanks to who ever fixed my post so that my pics would show. Sterling Salter |
The thing that turned me off about the F2000 is that its OAL is so long. When realized that an ar w/ 16" barrel and stock collapased is like 1" longer, I scrapped the idea of the F2000. It it a nice weapon but II just don't understand why they made the receiver so long behind the magazine??? They could have made a 26OAL w/ 18" barrel. 
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Just bought a stock, postban M17S. Are there any mods that are absolutely necessary? I'm thinking this thing would work well with an ACOG. The rail's pretty high though. These are supposed to be scary accurate. Gotta love a piston 5.56 with a 21.5" BBL in a package the size of a 10.5" SBR! Anyone know the twist rate on the M17S barrel? |
I'd say the only mod that is absolutely necessary is to ditch the existing carry handle/scope mount, and put a longer lower rail on it. (Doing that sort of necessitates putting a lower charging handle - like Kurt's "t" handle on it - too, I guess). For a scope mount, the existing handle/rail is simply too tall, and not stable enough. I had an ELCAN (which is similar to the ACOG in performance) on mine for a while, and liked it a lot. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bushmaster M17s (Page 1 of 4)
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