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Posted: 1/26/2020 1:24:07 AM EDT
[#1]
Yep that was a great read. Now I know for sure not to up the loads in summer.
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Posted: 1/26/2020 7:00:17 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No problem! It was a fun little project. Regarding primers, I agree. I wondered what 450's might look like. IIRC the primer cup is thicker on the 450's. At any rate, it gives me some confidence to proceed loading the 26.5 grain charge if it is accurate. Obviously, all standard safety protocols apply. These appear to be ok for my rifles but may not be for others. I loaded 5rds each with loads ranging from 21.5 to IIRC 25.5 grains and 5 shot groups at 50 yards. I saw very little difference in primer appearance or load accuracy between the two. I even took them home to inspect under my lighted fly tying magnifier. After mixing the casings there was no possible way to tell one primer from the other. This is not to say that at pressures you were at there wouldn't be a difference but if there's one thing that loading .223 has demonstrated to me it's the fact that trying to "read" small rifle primers is useless. Motor |
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Posted: 1/26/2020 9:42:31 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is not to say that at pressures you were at there wouldn't be a difference but if there's one thing that loading .223 has demonstrated to me it's the fact that trying to "read" small rifle primers is useless. Motor I assume you mean by this comparing 400's to 450's? Because there was quite a bit to read in the test I ran here, and I have had quite a bit of other experience where small rifle primers clearly indicated changes in pressure. It would be interesting to run this exact same test with some 450's and see if any differences could be noted. it's my understanding based on conversation with a tech at one of the powder companies that the magnum primer cups are generally thicker, but I have never measured or otherwise proven that to myself. |
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Posted: 1/27/2020 7:20:50 AM EDT
[#4]
@EVR
Great work turning winter into summer. In regards to cci 450 primers. My prairie dog / accuracy load has always been 52 smk over 26.8 gr of 335 with a 450 primer. Thats a load from lyman 47 iirc i’ve never chrono’d it but its cooking downrange performance at 3-400 tells me this. The primers barely flatten in Texas summer heat. I think magnum primers are a requirement for that kind of load. Its never poped or pierced a primer across multiple firearms for what thats worth. |
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Posted: 1/27/2020 9:39:49 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@EVR Great work turning winter into summer. In regards to cci 450 primers. My prairie dog / accuracy load has always been 52 smk over 26.8 gr of 335 with a 450 primer. Thats a load from lyman 47 iirc i’ve never chrono’d it but its cooking downrange performance at 3-400 tells me this. The primers barely flatten in Texas summer heat. I think magnum primers are a requirement for that kind of load. Its never poped or pierced a primer across multiple firearms for what thats worth. My lot of H-335 is faster than my lot of WC-844, so what you describe even w/ a 52 grain bullet would be a much heavier load {I THINK} than my planned load of 26.5 WC-844. This might be a case where a switch in primers might be advantageous, but if getting close to max loads, would require another workup, since the magnum primer would in all likelihood also increase pressures. It's all very interesting. We have tremendous temperature extremes here which causes me to be concerned with all of this. As a sidenote, all this hearkens back to the struggles developing military and commercial ammo very early on in the history of smokeless powder and especially by the British who actually assembled special "tropical loads" for various commercial rifles for use in the widely spread out regions of their empire. Cordite was especially problematic. As for us here, we don't have to travel far at times to see dramatic changes.... At my ranch here we can have a frost any month of the year AND extremely hot temperatures, sometimes on the same DAY. July is a strange month and we have experienced hard frosts in the morning and OVER 100 degrees F by 4:00 in the afternoon. Timed right I could have run this test without the use of an oven...on the same day...!!  Yeah, it's crazy, and one of the reasons I'm concerned about effect of heat on ammo. Then imagine some days when the stuff sits in the sun. Routinely on one of my workout hikes on the south face of the mountain that overlooks my place, my thermometers peg out at 120 or 125 and the temp keeps rising.
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Posted: 1/30/2020 9:26:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Accuracy Test and Bonus at the end...................
First, here ya go. If you can't read the results on the targets, holler. First, the testbed. ArmaLite M15 National Match, Leupold 4.5-14 scope w/ target knobs. I did NOT zero the tested ammo. You will see everything prints hard to the right. I forgot its dedicated load. Also, all shooting was done at 100 METERS, so the proper MOA factor was used. 
Three 5-shot groups: WC-844 Lot 91318, Hornady 55 FMJBT, PMC cases, CCI400, OAL 2.12; Average 1.114 MOA  M855 (FED). Average 2.060 MOA 
One 10-shot group. WC-844; 2.042 MOA M855; 2.479 MOA A plinking load using Wideners 55 gr FMJ bullets and AA2460 powder...; 1.769 
Now, the bonus.............. Since the other day shooting in deep snow, we had a warmup and heavy rain. The bullets I chrinographed in the earlier testing I found on the top of the ground... Here they are; 
Might reload them and shoot them. I wasn't able to calculate how far they penetrated. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a074412.pdf |
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Posted: 1/30/2020 9:28:58 PM EDT
[#7]
@AR-Bossman
@chevrofreak @dryflash3 @RegionRat @Chuck_Finley_IV @acman145acp @LeadBreakfast @Motor1 |
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Posted: 1/30/2020 9:37:18 PM EDT
[#8]
AA2460 printed nicely.
Are you really going to reload the projectiles? Thay would be epic. 
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Posted: 1/30/2020 9:39:03 PM EDT
[#9]
You gonna index the rifle marks to match the leade?
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Posted: 1/30/2020 9:47:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AA2460 printed nicely. Are you really going to reload the projectiles? Thay would be epic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
AA2460 printed nicely. Are you really going to reload the projectiles? Thay would be epic. 
Quoted:
You gonna index the rifle marks to match the leade? 
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Posted: 1/30/2020 10:39:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Thanks for the update. I've never used the FMJ Hornadys but have achieved slightly better results than that with a 4x ACOG and a 16" Colt SOCOM barrel with the SPBT and CCI 450's. At the very least, it is always nice to see your basic hand loads outperform factory ammo.
Won't be shooting anymore groups until spring most likely but we'll see...maybe I'll do some testing of my standard WC844 load with a few different barrels. I've got a few other reloading projects that will take precedent but sometimes a bit of plinking in between development stages (especially when finding a good load proves difficult) reaffirms that the work is well worth it. |
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Posted: 1/31/2020 6:56:49 AM EDT
[#12]
More later on specific topic but if I was going to attempt to use "used" bullets I'd suggest running them through a bullet sizer dia first. ??
Motor |
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Posted: 1/31/2020 8:54:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More later on specific topic but if I was going to attempt to use "used" bullets I'd suggest running them through a bullet sizer dia first. ?? Motor I do not have a .224 sizer but these will be miked, roll-checked and the chamber will help me out also. Stay tuned. |
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Posted: 1/31/2020 5:01:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Might reload them and shoot them. I wasn't able to calculate how far they penetrated. |
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Posted: 1/31/2020 6:28:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Is that the 26.5 load or did i miss it in the post.??
Great thread reload shot bullets thats my kinda recycling 
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Posted: 1/31/2020 6:46:51 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that the 26.5 load or did i miss it in the post.?? Great thread reload shot bullets thats my kinda recycling |
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Posted: 2/4/2020 8:28:51 PM EDT
[#17]
Good stuff OP, thanks for the testing and notes. I'm new to reloading and for a stacking round this looks pretty primo to me. I started this for 6.5G and 300blk, but I enjoy the process and now I'm scouting out a 5.56 load.
Got a bunch of those Hornady SPBT 55gr bullets on hand and the #400 primers, now looks like I need to order a jug or two of this powder. I can get it at about half the price of the CFE223 I have for the Grendel and which I was planning to use for 5.56. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 9:18:37 PM EDT
[#18]
An interesting study relevant to our discussion here:
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a572333.pdf |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 9:35:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An interesting study relevant to our discussion here: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a572333.pdf
Ordered 32lbs today. Local friend will take 8lbs, which leaves me enough for approximately 6700 rounds. That'll last me a little while. |
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Posted: 2/5/2020 10:12:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. My primary takeaway - buy a bunch from the same lot
Ordered 32lbs today. Local friend will take 8lbs, which leaves me enough for approximately 6700 rounds. That'll last me a little while. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
An interesting study relevant to our discussion here: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a572333.pdf
Ordered 32lbs today. Local friend will take 8lbs, which leaves me enough for approximately 6700 rounds. That'll last me a little while. That's pretty much my takeaway as well. It's been an interesting investigation. |
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Posted: 3/3/2020 9:47:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Quick report on my lot #0140.
I'm still new to reloading and playing it cautiously. Using CCI 400 primers and 55gr Hornady SPBT bullets. 16" midlength barrel. I started at 23.5gr which was giving me 2530 fps or so, and worked up in 0.3gr increments to 25.0. That 25.0gr load still only gave me an avg 2740 fps with an ES of about 40, so I'm going back to the drawing board. I'm hoping to get up above 2900-2950 fps if possible, and loaded another set starting at 25.3gr. To benchmark I shot some 55gr fmj Wolf Gold 223 which came out at 3060 fps. |
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Posted: 3/3/2020 10:14:22 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quick report on my lot #0140. I'm still new to reloading and playing it cautiously. Using CCI 400 primers and 55gr Hornady SPBT bullets. 16" midlength barrel. I started at 23.5gr which was giving me 2530 fps or so, and worked up in 0.3gr increments to 25.0. That 25.0gr load still only gave me an avg 2740 fps with an ES of about 40, so I'm going back to the drawing board. I'm hoping to get up above 2900-2950 fps if possible, and loaded another set starting at 25.3gr. To benchmark I shot some 55gr fmj Wolf Gold 223 which came out at 3060 fps. |
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Posted: 3/6/2020 9:08:03 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quick report on my lot #0140. I'm still new to reloading and playing it cautiously. Using CCI 400 primers and 55gr Hornady SPBT bullets. 16" midlength barrel. I started at 23.5gr which was giving me 2530 fps or so, and worked up in 0.3gr increments to 25.0. That 25.0gr load still only gave me an avg 2740 fps with an ES of about 40, so I'm going back to the drawing board. I'm hoping to get up above 2900-2950 fps if possible, and loaded another set starting at 25.3gr. To benchmark I shot some 55gr fmj Wolf Gold 223 which came out at 3060 fps. |
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Posted: 3/6/2020 9:55:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can get there, it will just take a lot of powder. With a different lot number, I ended at 26.5 for about 3,080 fps in a 20" Depending on the lot, military ammo has been found to fall somewhere in the range of 27.5-28.5 IIRC. As always, DO NOT load this high without working up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quick report on my lot #0140. I'm still new to reloading and playing it cautiously. Using CCI 400 primers and 55gr Hornady SPBT bullets. 16" midlength barrel. I started at 23.5gr which was giving me 2530 fps or so, and worked up in 0.3gr increments to 25.0. That 25.0gr load still only gave me an avg 2740 fps with an ES of about 40, so I'm going back to the drawing board. I'm hoping to get up above 2900-2950 fps if possible, and loaded another set starting at 25.3gr. To benchmark I shot some 55gr fmj Wolf Gold 223 which came out at 3060 fps. I've got another batch loaded up in 0.3gr increments from 25.3 to 26.8, same COL of 2.200". If I can get through the mud to my shooting spot I'll post some results this weekend in a more scientific format including actual velocities, SD, ES, etc. I also loaded 3x sets to shoot through a 12.5" barrel to compare velocity dropoffs for my own curiosity. If anyone is interested I'll put up that data too. |
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Posted: 3/6/2020 10:43:57 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank you, good to know. I've got another batch loaded up in 0.3gr increments from 25.3 to 26.8, same COL of 2.200". If I can get through the mud to my shooting spot I'll post some results this weekend in a more scientific format including actual velocities, SD, ES, etc. I also loaded 3x sets to shoot through a 12.5" barrel to compare velocity dropoffs for my own curiosity. If anyone is interested I'll put up that data too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quick report on my lot #0140. I'm still new to reloading and playing it cautiously. Using CCI 400 primers and 55gr Hornady SPBT bullets. 16" midlength barrel. I started at 23.5gr which was giving me 2530 fps or so, and worked up in 0.3gr increments to 25.0. That 25.0gr load still only gave me an avg 2740 fps with an ES of about 40, so I'm going back to the drawing board. I'm hoping to get up above 2900-2950 fps if possible, and loaded another set starting at 25.3gr. To benchmark I shot some 55gr fmj Wolf Gold 223 which came out at 3060 fps. I've got another batch loaded up in 0.3gr increments from 25.3 to 26.8, same COL of 2.200". If I can get through the mud to my shooting spot I'll post some results this weekend in a more scientific format including actual velocities, SD, ES, etc. I also loaded 3x sets to shoot through a 12.5" barrel to compare velocity dropoffs for my own curiosity. If anyone is interested I'll put up that data too. Yeah, by all means. I'd be interested in any WC844 data you have. @ LeadBreakfast I've stuck at 26.5 but I have thought about working up to the higher numbers and then running a test to see how many shots I can get before primer pockets start to loosen. One of my goals in reloading is to eliminate primer pocket expansion as much as possible to get maximum # of loadings from the cases. I then let neck cracks more or less signal when to scrap the case. I do not anneal, as it is an extra step I just don't feel like adding, since cases are pretty cheap as left-overs from factory or once-fired bulk, or etc. |
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Posted: 3/8/2020 2:44:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Not sure if there's a better way, but I just did screencaps of my excel doc here. Got out today after a misfire yesterday (6 shots in, battery died in the chrono).
All the groups were OK for the most part, but I didn't bother taking photos. I forgot my bench, so had to kneel and shoot off a barrel, and the wind was gusting like crazy anyway. At 50 yards all but the 25.9gr load out of the 16" mid were in a 1" circle, and all 3 groups with the 12.5" were within an inch. The tightest groups were the 26.5gr and 28.8 actually, but due to conditions I'm not going to the bank with those results. Overall I'm pretty happy with the 26.5gr. I wanted to hit 2900fps so I'll probably end on this one, but will do a better accuracy test with the 26.8gr load when I can. @EVR Top pic is 16" middy, bottom is 12.5" carbine.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 3/8/2020 3:37:36 PM EDT
[#27]
What's up with these weak sauce loadings? 556 brass is dirt cheap, I'm pushing my M193 clones with WC844 to 3200 FPS from a 16" SCAR 16.
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Posted: 3/8/2020 3:41:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's up with these weak sauce loadings? 556 brass is dirt cheap, I'm pushing my M193 clones with WC844 to 3200 FPS from a 16" SCAR 16. The price of brass is not what I'm concerned about when it comes to loading hot |
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Posted: 3/8/2020 3:55:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's up with these weak sauce loadings? 556 brass is dirt cheap, I'm pushing my M193 clones with WC844 to 3200 FPS from a 16" SCAR 16. And this is new territory for me so I'm not trying to ride the bleeding velocity edge. I want to get something fairly accurate to shoot out to 200-250 yards. |
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Posted: 3/8/2020 4:01:41 PM EDT
[#30]
WC-844 Lot # 1098-0714 (Manufactured 07/2014) from American Reloading, Purchased in 2016
I prefer 26.8 gr with SB Primers in LC (primer swaged out) and a decent crimp. No blown primers. YMMV Accuracy was ~1.5 MOA, load # 9 while the best from a SD department, opened up to 2". 
I had the best accuracy below 3k fps... but the whole point of M193 is to move fast enough to frag well. I think 15 SD is adequate as is the accuracy. 3200 FPS will frag well. What's telling here is how different the burn rates are between the lots. I have another 32# lot I haven't tried... makes me wonder what to expect when I work up a load.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 3/8/2020 5:04:08 PM EDT
[#31]
Awesome thanks. And first off your format is smarter, I'm switching to that layout moving forward. In fact I'm going to go back and lay my numbers out that way. This was my first time putting the data into excel.
So yeah that's a wild difference between these lots. I would have preferred your velocities but I've got what I've got... All 24 lbs of it
I don't know how to tell if it's safe to keep pushing higher, beyond examining the brass and primers. Even my top load of 26.8gr brass looks identical to the first load so that's good. My 23.5gr gave me about 2500 fps avg if I recall correctly. Either way I'm using the SPBTs so maybe there's some difference there? Wouldn't think it'd be that drastic though. I want to shoot a couple hogs with this bullet and see what the damage is at this velocity too. Maybe I should stick to the 62gr Gold Dots for real hunting but I am curious what this bullet does in...organic material, I guess you'd say. |
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Posted: 3/8/2020 10:03:12 PM EDT
[#32]
@TGE
@PointBlank82 Great discussion and info!!! Thanks very much for posting. Seems to me I could boost my load fairly substantially while still remaining safe at cold temps. And maybe so at the hot temps but the problem I've run into in the past is gas leakage around the primers in our extreme heat of summer, so I really don't want to go there. Years ago I worked up a dandy load in winter using AA2460 powder, only to have extreme problems in the summer. Frustrating, but I wound up reducing the load by about 1.5 grains to allow me the use of it in all seasons. I'm guessing the GI loads use a harder primer and of course they don't care about reloading. |
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Posted: 3/9/2020 11:11:49 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@EVR Great work turning winter into summer. In regards to cci 450 primers. My prairie dog / accuracy load has always been 52 smk over 26.8 gr of 335 with a 450 primer. Thats a load from lyman 47 iirc i’ve never chrono’d it but its cooking downrange performance at 3-400 tells me this. The primers barely flatten in Texas summer heat. I think magnum primers are a requirement for that kind of load. Its never poped or pierced a primer across multiple firearms for what thats worth. I've been told (but don't know) that CCI primers are relatively mild. A regular Winchester SRP may not have this issue, and magnums may not be recommended if using the Winchester brand primers. With CCI, however, I have consistently had better results with magnum SRPs with 748 and H335. |
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Posted: 3/9/2020 11:17:11 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@TGE @PointBlank82 Great discussion and info!!! Thanks very much for posting. Seems to me I could boost my load fairly substantially while still remaining safe at cold temps. And maybe so at the hot temps but the problem I've run into in the past is gas leakage around the primers in our extreme heat of summer, so I really don't want to go there. Years ago I worked up a dandy load in winter using AA2460 powder, only to have extreme problems in the summer. Frustrating, but I wound up reducing the load by about 1.5 grains to allow me the use of it in all seasons. I'm guessing the GI loads use a harder primer and of course they don't care about reloading. |
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Posted: 3/9/2020 11:32:08 AM EDT
[#35]
@JamesP81
Good posts. Yes, I think you are right about the click-bangs. I've heard of that sort of thing what you say, but with ball powders have always picked a middle load for a starter to be sure. As for safety, not sure, that's just what I do to avoid problems at the lower end of the load densities. With milsurp powders, all loading is of course even more of a crapshoot as to where where to start. |
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Posted: 3/9/2020 12:04:22 PM EDT
[#36]
I recently worked up a load with this powder (Lot # 91318) and 55 gr Hornady FMJBT, CCI 450 primers and LC brass. 2.20 COAL.
Started at 25.3 gr and worked up to 27 gr. Best accuracy ended up being 26.6 gr at about .75" moa. About 3050 fps with 18" WOA barrel. This was at about 60 f. 27 gr got to about 3115 fps with around 1" moa. I will use 26.6 gr and will rerun the test once the weather warms up. Will be interested to see velocity numbers when it hit 100 f. |
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Posted: 3/10/2020 12:20:42 AM EDT
[#37]
@TGE @PointBlank82 @montyw42 @AR-Bossman @chevrofreak @dryflash3 @RegionRat @Chuck_Finley_IV @acman145acp @LeadBreakfast @Motor1
Up next: I pulled bullets from 6 rounds of Federal {LC brass} factory XM855, then weighed the powder charge. I then averaged the weight and reloaded the cases with that amount of WC844. The powder from the XM855 then went into cases loaded with Hornady 55 grain bullets. I'll chronograph and then compare. I also loaded the already-shot bullets and will shoot for accuracy, also. Fighting chrono weather here but Thursday looks good. |
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Posted: 3/10/2020 2:20:53 AM EDT
[#38]
Great info, will be interesting to see results.
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Posted: 3/12/2020 7:10:27 PM EDT
[#39]
@TGE @PointBlank82 @montyw42 @AR-Bossman @chevrofreak @dryflash3 @RegionRat @Chuck_Finley_IV @acman145acp @LeadBreakfast @Motor1
As promised... 1} 6 rounds of Federal factory XM855. I weighed the powder charge. I then averaged the weight {27.08 grains} and reloaded the cases with that amount {actually, 27 grains as I have a beam scale} of WC844. WC844/91318 27 grains, LC brass, Factory primer Velocity Average, 6 shots = 3016 fps Extreme Spread = 34 fps Group size 2 15/16" MOA 2.57 2} The powder from the XM855 then went into cases loaded with Hornady 55 grain bullets. Powder ?? 27.08 {average} grains, LC fired brass, CCI 400 primers Velocity Average, 6 shots = 3089 fps Extreme Spread = 219 fps Group size 3 1/8" MOA 2.73 3} 10 bullets shot into and recovered from snowbank, then reloaded as follows... WC844/91318 26.5 grains, MIXED brass, CCI 400 primers Velocity Average, 10 shots = 3077 fps Extreme Spread = 127 fps Group size 4 1/16" MOA 3.55 Controls: 4} Federal XM855 Factory load Velocity Average, 3061 fps Extreme Spread = 31 fps Group size 2 11/16" MOA 2.35 5} Hornady 55 FMJ Handload WC844/91318 26.5 grains, FC cases, CCI 400 primers Velocity Average, 6 shots = 3040 fps Extreme Spread = 92 fps Group size 1 1/4" MOA 1.09 I shoot at 100 METERS, so I've calculated the MOA accordingly. NB: I should add here, that the rifle I used here was NOT the one I used to shoot the accuracy tests in the previous post. This rifle is a home build, non-freefloat barrel. I used this rifle previously for chronographing purposes and wanted to use it again here. The rifle from the previous post; Franken gun with a 20" tube. Melonite barrel...  So..................................... I wonder what this stuff might do in my National Match rifle.... |
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Posted: 3/12/2020 7:50:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Very interesting test thanks
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Posted: 3/12/2020 8:39:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Cool test!
So is a theory that this are the same powder as the xm855? Velocity numbers don't really say otherwise. And how your group tightened up with the Hornady bullets, that's wild, especially with how tight you were with all the powder charges. Interesting, interesting. |
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Posted: 3/12/2020 11:04:39 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool test! So is a theory that this are the same powder as the xm855? Velocity numbers don't really say otherwise. And how your group tightened up with the Hornady bullets, that's wild, especially with how tight you were with all the powder charges. Interesting, interesting. Looks like the lot of WC844 I have is a bit slower than the lot that is in the Federal factory loads. And yeah...the accuracy difference was pretty dramatic with my lot using 26.5 grains vs the factory powder at 27, tho one thing I didn't note was the actual weights of each round of factory which went like this: 27 26.2 27.2 27.4 27.4 27.3 Except for that one outlier, seems like pretty good conformity in military mass produced ammo. I found the high extreme spread of 219 fps w/ 55 grain bullets + 27.08 grains of factory powder to be really odd and interesting considering my handload of 26.5 grains of WC844 gave a better 92 fps extreme spread {tho still fairly high comparatively} but even so it turned in a really good group, indicating to me M855 bullets are not the most accurate things going, which is no surprise, since they have a reputation for being not-so-great. All in all, I'm getting a feel for this powder. |
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Posted: 3/13/2020 1:10:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct. That's exactly what I was trying to figure out. Looks like the lot of WC844 I have is a bit slower than the lot that is in the Federal factory loads. And yeah...the accuracy difference was pretty dramatic with my lot using 26.5 grains vs the factory powder at 27, tho one thing I didn't note was the actual weights of each round of factory which went like this: 27 26.2 27.2 27.4 27.4 27.3 Except for that one outlier, seems like pretty good conformity in military mass produced ammo. I found the high extreme spread of 219 fps w/ 55 grain bullets + 27.08 grains of factory powder to be really odd and interesting considering my handload of 26.5 grains of WC844 gave a better 92 fps extreme spread {tho still fairly high comparatively} but even so it turned in a really good group, indicating to me M855 bullets are not the most accurate things going, which is no surprise, since they have a reputation for being not-so-great. All in all, I'm getting a feel for this powder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Cool test! So is a theory that this are the same powder as the xm855? Velocity numbers don't really say otherwise. And how your group tightened up with the Hornady bullets, that's wild, especially with how tight you were with all the powder charges. Interesting, interesting. Looks like the lot of WC844 I have is a bit slower than the lot that is in the Federal factory loads. And yeah...the accuracy difference was pretty dramatic with my lot using 26.5 grains vs the factory powder at 27, tho one thing I didn't note was the actual weights of each round of factory which went like this: 27 26.2 27.2 27.4 27.4 27.3 Except for that one outlier, seems like pretty good conformity in military mass produced ammo. I found the high extreme spread of 219 fps w/ 55 grain bullets + 27.08 grains of factory powder to be really odd and interesting considering my handload of 26.5 grains of WC844 gave a better 92 fps extreme spread {tho still fairly high comparatively} but even so it turned in a really good group, indicating to me M855 bullets are not the most accurate things going, which is no surprise, since they have a reputation for being not-so-great. All in all, I'm getting a feel for this powder. I'm feeling as confident as a 2-months-experience reloader can feel, too. Just ordered a case of 55gr SPBTs, so I'm lined up now with powder, primers and bullets to shoot this stuff for years at my current rate. |
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Posted: 3/13/2020 3:30:48 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agree with everything there. I'm feeling as confident as a 2-months-experience reloader can feel, too. Just ordered a case of 55gr SPBTs, so I'm lined up now with powder, primers and bullets to shoot this stuff for years at my current rate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Cool test! So is a theory that this are the same powder as the xm855? Velocity numbers don't really say otherwise. And how your group tightened up with the Hornady bullets, that's wild, especially with how tight you were with all the powder charges. Interesting, interesting. Looks like the lot of WC844 I have is a bit slower than the lot that is in the Federal factory loads. And yeah...the accuracy difference was pretty dramatic with my lot using 26.5 grains vs the factory powder at 27, tho one thing I didn't note was the actual weights of each round of factory which went like this: 27 26.2 27.2 27.4 27.4 27.3 Except for that one outlier, seems like pretty good conformity in military mass produced ammo. I found the high extreme spread of 219 fps w/ 55 grain bullets + 27.08 grains of factory powder to be really odd and interesting considering my handload of 26.5 grains of WC844 gave a better 92 fps extreme spread {tho still fairly high comparatively} but even so it turned in a really good group, indicating to me M855 bullets are not the most accurate things going, which is no surprise, since they have a reputation for being not-so-great. All in all, I'm getting a feel for this powder. I'm feeling as confident as a 2-months-experience reloader can feel, too. Just ordered a case of 55gr SPBTs, so I'm lined up now with powder, primers and bullets to shoot this stuff for years at my current rate. |
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Posted: 3/17/2020 9:19:33 PM EDT
[#45]
@EVR
Just wanted to say thank you for all the effort you've put in to this. Makes me want to look for that higher node you've found. (see what kind of distance / bullet performance i can achieve for the short barrels) Look forward to when i can contribute some chrono results from some short barrels to this. |
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Posted: 3/17/2020 9:24:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@EVR Just wanted to say thank you for all the effort you've put in to this. Makes me want to look for that higher node you've found. (see what kind of distance / bullet performance i can achieve for the short barrels) Look forward to when i can contribute some chrono results from some short barrels to this. It's been a lot of fun. |
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Posted: 3/18/2020 12:33:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looking at the data in a few load books, I think this stuff might be burning around the speed of BLC2. Hard to say, but it burns slower than my lot of H-335.l |
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Posted: 3/21/2020 11:18:02 PM EDT
[#48]
I began my WC844 work up today.
I'm using various brass as this is just blasting ammo to play with the Fight Lite belt fed upper I bought. I'm using SS109 ammo 25.3 grains got ~2,700 fps. I will be trying 25.5 in the morning to see what that gets. |
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Posted: 3/22/2020 12:30:58 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. Lot was noted in the OP. My lot is much slower than my lot of slow 335. @chevrofreak Have you got a link to the data sheet? I vaguely remember some data in one of the technical reports I printed off the DTIC site some years ago. I have hard copies but will need mining equipment to sort thru them. But your 27.8 sounds possible. Check this out for more: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/WC844_data_in_5_56/42-301020/ Right on. Yes, that's why I fired a couple shots of M855 for a control. You will see there that the speed is "carbine-like" but not "pop-gun-like" as are my results with the WC844 load. I will say that 30 degrees really isn't that cold. Around here we get some days that are very cold {similar to northern Minnesota/ND, etc} but it doesn't last as long as in those places. I avoid testing loads in really deep cold for the reason you say. With some really sensitive powder at max loads I've seen trouble working up the load in moderate cold such as what we got yesterday and then shooting them in peak temps we get in summer like below:https://i.postimg.cc/x8jjXVTP/Hot-Hike06272015-051-1024x768-zpsrngx03up.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: yeah it took me 26gr WC844 to get near my 24.5 gr. h335 loads. That setup is dedication. I won't go anywhere if it's near 40 and certainly not in snow That is interesting. What shocked me was how slow my lot of H-335 is. I've never used H-335 before. My experience in .223 over the years has been with H4198, RL15, RL15 milsurp, AA2460, H4895 and maybe a couple others. This was a surprise. Getting there and back is part of the adventure... https://i.postimg.cc/02fZSLFT/Range-Day01182020-Chrono-142-1024x576.jpg Quoted: Lot# 83018 by chance? That is the lot I have, and it is quite a bit slower than H335 data. I was comparing to Wolf Gold and I think I would need 27gr to match it. I have seen an M193 data sheet that claims it is loaded with 27.8gr IIRC. No. Lot was noted in the OP. My lot is much slower than my lot of slow 335. @chevrofreak Have you got a link to the data sheet? I vaguely remember some data in one of the technical reports I printed off the DTIC site some years ago. I have hard copies but will need mining equipment to sort thru them. But your 27.8 sounds possible. Check this out for more: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/WC844_data_in_5_56/42-301020/ Quoted: Also, I'm sure you will remember to account for your climate. Testing during winter cold you will have to compensate for what happens on a hot summer day if you plan on loading for summer. Right on. Yes, that's why I fired a couple shots of M855 for a control. You will see there that the speed is "carbine-like" but not "pop-gun-like" as are my results with the WC844 load. I will say that 30 degrees really isn't that cold. Around here we get some days that are very cold {similar to northern Minnesota/ND, etc} but it doesn't last as long as in those places. I avoid testing loads in really deep cold for the reason you say. With some really sensitive powder at max loads I've seen trouble working up the load in moderate cold such as what we got yesterday and then shooting them in peak temps we get in summer like below:https://i.postimg.cc/x8jjXVTP/Hot-Hike06272015-051-1024x768-zpsrngx03up.jpg Good testing but pack a spare firing pin if your winter loads are near max. I know the OP said he likes mid range loads and I agree! Ball powders are just that temp sensitive that you need to beware of the chance of pierced primers. I have the chipped firing pin awards myself.  . It was the general purpose load I worked up in the NM rifle with Wilde chamber that did not cross over nicely to my newly acquired colt lightweight sportier carbine.ETA old data 55 hornady fmj Radway Ordinance brass Cci450 WC844 2007 virgin surp. ETA LOT 608604 70 degrees f 25.0 2992, my notes say great in 20” RRA Nm but flat primers in Colt carbine, ES 92, two 1 1/16” ten shot groups 24.3 2877, ES 147, 2.5 “ ten shot and 1 7/8” ten shot groups 66 degrees 24.4 2980 , 149 ES, 1 3/4”, 3/4” ten shot groups 24.0 2955, 212 ES, 1 3/4”, 1 1/8” ten shot groups 53 degrees 25.5 2980, ES 126, 7/8”, 1 1/8” 25.3 2948, ES 144 7/8, 1 7/8” 25.0 2930, ES 94, 1 1/4, 1 1/2” 24.7 2895, ES 195, 1 1/8, 7/8” |
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Posted: 3/22/2020 1:17:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I began my WC844 work up today. I'm using various brass as this is just blasting ammo to play with the Fight Lite belt fed upper I bought. I'm using SS109 ammo 25.3 grains got ~2,700 fps. I will be trying 25.5 in the morning to see what that gets. What barrel length were you using? I've got a few jugs of wc844(same lot # as op) and a case of hornady 62 grainers that I should probably get started on. |
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