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Posted: 7/31/2017 8:55:42 AM EDT
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I have never had this happen before and I am a little at a loss as well as uneasy about shooting my hand loads. I am looking for advice or causes.
I am using a Lee turret press with the Lee 9mm dies. I have used the dies before and never had any issue, so I know the dies are good. The difference is in the press. I was using a single stage and switched. The other night, I loaded 50 9mm 124 gr XTP's. I do load mine a little higher than the C.O.L that is mentioned in the Hornady book and I have done so since I started so I know that what I do works. When I was loading the other night, I had depth ranges from 1.0695 all the way up to 1.106. I had to adjust the seating die up and down for several of these rounds just to keep them within my caliper specs of what I want. There are about 18 rounds like this. When I did try to keep the die set, the bullet would either be too large for my caliber or it would be shorter. Am I doing something wrong? I am still learning about progressive presses so please understand that in regards to super technical, I may not be to par with most on here. I appreciate your help on this very much. I still think it would be safe to shoot since I am not seating deeper than the C.O.L min and I also have backed down my powder load. The max is 7.6 gr and I load at 7.4 gr. I am using Hornady's 9th addition. Thanks for any help in this matter. |
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Seating die seats to bullet ogive (not tip unless you are using flat point bullets and seating with flat stem). You are measuring to bullet tip, right?
There are Hornady tools that attach to calipers to measure to bullet ogive). I dont use them for pistol. I tend to seat as long as I can to fit my mags. Make some dummies and test cycling in guns. Your variation is essentially normal. Just make sure the long rounds cycle and the shortest aren't much shorter than min COL for recipe. Glad you are questioning yourself and asking the right questions. Good work! |
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Quoted:
Seating die seats to bullet ogive (not tip unless you are using flat point bullets and seating with flat stem). You are measuring to bullet tip, right? There are Hornady tools that attach to calipers to measure to bullet ogive). I dont use them for pistol. I tend to seat as long as I can to fit my mags. Make some dummies and test cycling in guns. Your variation is essentially normal. Just make sure the long rounds cycle and the shortest aren't much shorter than min COL for recipe. Glad you are questioning yourself and asking the right questions. Good work! I am using Hornady's standard Caliper. What I have done when I started this was look at the OAL from Hornady and then I did make some test rounds. If it didn't cycle, I set the bullet deeper till it would just cycle maybe a little more head room (if that is the correct term. I am not sure what Ogive is? The round is the XTP and that seems pretty flat top to it from what I could see. Is this different than what you are mentioning? I am measuring to the tip. When the bullet case to tip can fit in my desired length, then I count the round as right size. Thank you again for your help and correction if I am wrong. |
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If they pass the "Plunk Test" with your Pistol Barrel and fit your Magazine I would shoot them. |
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What kind of press?
I found on my Hornady LnL AP I get much less variation in length if I set up with all stations full and always run it with all stations full. Even then something as simple as a difficult to size case will throw OAL length off a bit for the round being seated when that case is being sized. Bottom line is you're going to see more variation that you did with your single stage, but if you tell us what kind of press some here might have advice to minimize it. .037 ain't horrible, but it could probably be improved. |
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What kind of press? I found on my Hornady LnL AP I get much less variation in length if I set up with all stations full and always run it with all stations full. Even then something as simple as a difficult to size case will throw OAL length off a bit for the round being seated when that case is being sized. Bottom line is you're going to see more variation that you did with your single stage, but if you tell us what kind of press some here might have advice to minimize it. .037 ain't horrible, but it could probably be improved. |
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When I get home from work tonight I will run the rounds through my gun in its initial test. The only one that I may have an issue with is that 1.106 bullet. That may be a tad longer. But if it cycles, then I will use it. Holes in the house are a bad thing. |
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If your going to cycle the rounds in your house might I suggest you make up some dummy rounds just in case of a mishap. Holes in the house are a bad thing. |
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So bullet variance has already been mentioned, I won't pile on there.
Wanted to add .... brass variances can cause this too (IE, different types, changing bell setting during run, etc) .... if they aren't all the same, they don't bell the same, so they don't load the same. Generally (IE not always) not enough to cause an issue in 9, but the difference in the resulting coal is there/measurable. Lastly, consistent handle pressure is also important. |
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I guess another question I should ask is, should I keep changing my seating die to match the fluctuations? Or should I set it and leave it? Thanks again. If, after I up and running I change brass to a type or length I know will mess with my coals or require me to change the bell, I find the happy medium again (reset coal) at that point....still have to verify they are all good. |
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Quoted:
So bullet variance has already been mentioned, I won't pile on there. Wanted to add .... brass variances can cause this too (IE, different types, changing bell setting during run, etc) .... if they aren't all the same, they don't bell the same, so they don't load the same. Generally (IE not always) not enough to cause an issue in 9, but the difference in the resulting coal is there/measurable. First time I reloaded 9mm I didn't bother to separate by headstamp and cases were not uniform in length. I had a terrible time trying to bell them. |
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So each manufacturer has different lengths on their brass? I NEVER considered that. So, that would also fluctuate my seating as well. Hmm. I will double check that. I have probably twenty or so other brass that I will look at tonight and see what I find. I never thought about adjusting them for head stamps!
Now in the adjustment, I will make sure that it cycles and if so, I think I may be gtg. But in regard to different size brass, I have the Lee brass guage and holder to trim with my drill. If I wanted to, or if it would be good, should I run my brass through that and make it uniform or just leave it? Again, I know mmmv, but I don't know if having the uniformed brass would be better for consistency? |
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I do not trim my 9 mm brass (nor do I recommend it), however, I do sort it to headstamp and run same stamps together.
When I change brass, there are times I need to tweek bell and seat depth. Brass lengths do differ at times. Again, generally ( IE not always) not enough to cause an issue in 9...but measurable. If you are like me, who doesn't like to over bell, if I set my bell to perfectly bell a short case and then run longer ones .... I end up with too much bell (for my taste) and a different coal. Conversely, If I set up my "perfect" bell on a longer headstamp brass, and then run a shorter ones .... I end up with not enough bell or none at all and a different coal because it will seat hard. They may all fit in a case gauge and may all be perfectly fine in my pistol(s) .... but my preference is something better than that, so I sort them. If you aren't sorting ... you pretty much have to set your bell to bell the shortest cases and realize the longer ones have more bell then they might need ... and put up with a slightly wider coal variances. |
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I do not trim my 9 mm brass (nor do I recommend it), however, I do sort it to headstamp and run them together. I sort them by headstamp. When I reload I measure before hand and separate by case length into different piles. I/E: One pile will be a mixture of .742, .743 & .744. Next pile will be .745, .746 & .747 etc. I may be a little bit anal about this but it seems to make belling/flaring easier for me. Or I am just getting better at reloading to due experience. |
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@ latama666 and greenheadcaller
Thank you for the info. I will hold off on trimming cases but instead will sort. I like the order that you have by putting it in measured batches so I will check that out on mine. So far, I spent about $5 for the trimmer and have never used it. Wonder if I wasted the $5. In regards to chasing the depth, I am going to try what you say and set it to a certain limit and when I find that sweet spot, keep it there. Then adjust to the brass length accordingly. Thanks to you both. To all: Thank you for the info. I feel more confident now in the reloads. The site has been great and the resources and depth of knowledge is huge! Thank you so much for all of the insight. If there is any other thoughts, please feel free to share. I do want to learn to help make my reloading better. |
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I have heard of dumb things before......
First off most handgun and straight wall rifle seaters are dead length. Due to the natures of the seating stem. Some die sets brands other that Lee either have universal seater stems or profile specific. Next if you are using a Carbide factory Crimp die this actually resizes the brass and the projectile is squeeze and thus lengthened. This should not be a real cause with jacketed bullets. Next bullets themselves can and do very with tip to base variations. The amount of belling should enough to stand a bullet on the case, and so what if you have variations in case overall length, because the expander does not float it is in fixed position. |
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I have heard of dumb things before...... First off most handgun and straight wall rifle seaters are dead length. Due to the natures of the seating stem. Some die sets brands other that Lee either have universal seater stems or profile specific. Next if you are using a Carbide factory Crimp die this actually resizes the brass and the projectile is squeeze and thus lengthened. This should not be a real cause with jacketed bullets. Next bullets themselves can and do very with tip to base variations. The amount of belling should enough to stand a bullet on the case, and so what if you have variations in case overall length, because the expander does not float it is in fixed position. Yep, most handgun and straight wall rifle seaters are dead length .... never said they weren't. Yep, seater stems vary in profile ... already mentioned above as potentially influencing coal variances. A lot of presses, such as LEE's, are dead stop presses too. I guess if dead stops are dead stops .... a guy should never have to worry about being consistent with press handle pressure right? If you want to believe case length can't cause coal differences, and you want to take this tact .... I won't help ya. |
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Wanted to save your use of "dumb". Yep, most handgun and straight wall rifle seaters are dead length .... never said they weren't. Yep, seater stems vary in profile ... already mentioned above as potentially influencing coal variances. A lot of presses, such as LEE's, are dead stop presses too. I guess if dead stops are dead stops .... a guy should never have to worry about being consistent with press handle pressure right? If you want to believe case length can't cause coal differences, and you want to take this tact .... I won't help ya. Quoted:
Quoted:
I have heard of dumb things before...... First off most handgun and straight wall rifle seaters are dead length. Due to the natures of the seating stem. Some die sets brands other that Lee either have universal seater stems or profile specific. Next if you are using a Carbide factory Crimp die this actually resizes the brass and the projectile is squeeze and thus lengthened. This should not be a real cause with jacketed bullets. Next bullets themselves can and do very with tip to base variations. The amount of belling should enough to stand a bullet on the case, and so what if you have variations in case overall length, because the expander does not float it is in fixed position. Yep, most handgun and straight wall rifle seaters are dead length .... never said they weren't. Yep, seater stems vary in profile ... already mentioned above as potentially influencing coal variances. A lot of presses, such as LEE's, are dead stop presses too. I guess if dead stops are dead stops .... a guy should never have to worry about being consistent with press handle pressure right? If you want to believe case length can't cause coal differences, and you want to take this tact .... I won't help ya. |
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Update: I cycled the rounds through. They all cycled as should except three or four. I loaded the Mag and tried again. It worked a second time.
It seems that a couple of those would not let the slide close all the way. It may be because I am not doing it with the same force as the shot itself...possible? Also seemed the end caught on the ramp going in. I know there are no burs because I checked. Maybe again I am manually manipulating the slide am not giving enough force? Lastly, I double checked the case. There is a slight bulge where the base of the bullet was pushed in the brass. I have never seen a bulge but I am assuming that is normal so the brass stretches over the bullet. Is this so? Should I be concerned? Thanks again. |
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Update: I cycled the rounds through. They all cycled as should except three or four. I loaded the Mag and tried again. It worked a second time. It seems that a couple of those would not let the slide close all the way. It may be because I am not doing it with the same force as the shot itself...possible? Also seemed the end caught on the ramp going in. I know there are no burs because I checked. Maybe again I am manually manipulating the slide am not giving enough force? Lastly, I double checked the case. There is a slight bulge where the base of the bullet was pushed in the brass. I have never seen a bulge but I am assuming that is normal so the brass stretches over the bullet. Is this so? Should I be concerned? Thanks again. Try dropping in chamber (remove barrel)? All drop in fine? |
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First check for excessive bullet setback (bullets getting pushed into case) by cycling action. Measure length before and after. Might just have a case that some rounds are too long for chamber. First cycling, younare pushing bullet in a little. Second, they are fine. Or chamber is fixing a bad crimping. Try dropping in chamber (remove barrel)? All drop in fine? Tonight, I will take the barrel out and drop the round into the barrel. If it does not seat all the way in, I should probably unload and throw the brass away? Thanks. |
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OP:
Another thing to look for: I've often noticed seating resistance varies when using mixed brands of brass. I've also noticed that XTP's have pretty soft tips and sometimes they compress. The easiest way to tell is to take a new bullet that hasn't been seated and do a side by side comparison with one of your "short" ones. When they compress the hole in the hollow point will be smaller. Just something to watch for. I hope you get it figured out. Motor |
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I did not see any mention of bullet seating punch in use.
Having punches made to match bullets used to be easy and common. Exposed lead bullet tips are pretty delicate things. If the jacket is thin at the tip it might as well be exposed lead. A seating punch that touches further down on the ogive of the bullet all around is less likely to deform a delicate tip. OAL to bullet tips is so error prone that using something to measure to the ogive is far more reliable and precise. |
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OP: Another thing to look for: I've often noticed seating resistance varies when using mixed brands of brass. I've also noticed that XTP's have pretty soft tips and sometimes they compress. The easiest way to tell is to take a new bullet that hasn't been seated and do a side by side comparison with one of your "short" ones. When they compress the hole in the hollow point will be smaller. Just something to watch for. I hope you get it figured out. Motor |
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I did not see any mention of bullet seating punch in use. Having punches made to match bullets used to be easy and common. Exposed lead bullet tips are pretty delicate things. If the jacket is thin at the tip it might as well be exposed lead. A seating punch that touches further down on the ogive of the bullet all around is less likely to deform a delicate tip. OAL to bullet tips is so error prone that using something to measure to the ogive is far more reliable and precise. So what is the punch? I am going to do some research to figure this out as well. Thank you for your advice. If it is what I think it is, I could use a small pin or something, mark it and see if it is equal...or am I over simplifying it? |
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I had a similar problem a few years back when I changed from RN to JHP and forgot to change the seater plug from round to flat for JHP, I believe this is what Brickeyee is referring to.
Did you check the seating die for any garbage in there? I just finished a run of 2k 9mm PD 124g JHP and did a random check of 15 rounds and mine varied 1.105 - 1.111. |
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I had a similar problem a few years back when I changed from RN to JHP and forgot to change the seater plug from round to flat for JHP, I believe this is what Brickeyee is referring to. Did you check the seating die for any garbage in there? I just finished a run of 2k 9mm PD 124g JHP and did a random check of 15 rounds and mine varied 1.105 - 1.111. I will check the die when I can get back to the bench...that is a good idea. I know that I have not used anything in that die (just my resizing die) and if there is something there then this would present a problem. I did do several mesurments which I will go through in my next post. |
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So I came home tonight and sat down at my bench and took several measurements. I have looked over the comments and double checked what I have. I mentioned that there were about 8 rounds that bother me and after tonight there are 5 that at best I am uneasy about but a little more pleased (unless you all see something that I don't) and the other three I am ready to pull bullets, save powder and primer, and get rid of the brass. Please bear with me as I go through this and if I can clarify something, please let me know.
First I took my barrel out of my M&P9 FS. It is the 4 3/4 barrel standard out of the box barrel. Here is what I found. Dropping the bullet without any force into the barrel and from the base of the barrel to the rim of the brass the sizes were The five: ranging from .134 to .1415 The three: .2805 to .3045 The next thing I did was look at the bulge sizes On the three only and it will first be non-bulged followed by bulged: Brass #1 .3875 : Bulged end - .379 Brass #2 .380: Bulged end - .385 (This bulge was near the rim of the bullet so I probably need to throw this one out) Brass #3 .327: Bulged end - .387 The next step I did was measure the brass length of the eight. I have only included the six variances. They ranged from .745 to.750 so I think the length seems to be good. On the three bad ones I had two PPU brass and one Win brass. They measured out as PPU#1 .748, PPU #2 .752 and Win .742 I wanted then to see if there was a difference or any cave in the end of the XTP. I put an unloaded round up against the loaded one and they were the same. I saw no disfiguration on the end from one to the other. Then as one suggested, I wanted to see if the depth in the JHP varied. I have, on the end of my caliper, a little bar that comes down when I open up the ends. I stuck this into the HP as far as it would go without forcing it and then closed my caliper until the bullet tip came in touch with the main body of the caliper. On the three: The depths ranged from .69-.71 On the Five: The depths ranged from .57-.765 AT this point, the only places that I have now and I can't be certain are the following: 1. It looks like on a couple of the bullets that the bullets that are seated are done so at an angle. If there is one, it is very slight and if not then my eyes are playing tricks on me. 2. My brass may be bad which I don't understand why. I got them as one time shot just to test firearms for function. If they are more than that then I guess that would explain it. 3. I am horribly pathetic at reloading with a turret press and I should stick with a single stage and what I know  .
I appreciate everyone's patience and help in this. If I have missed something please let me know. I know there are a lot of numbers and indeed, I am really wading out into the deeper waters of reloading. All of this is way beyond anything I have ever done. Thanks for your patience and help with this. |
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I wanted to give as much help as possible so I am posting some pics of the rounds I am talking about. The only way I know how to get them to work is by making hot links so I am sorry for the extra step. I am not sure how to make it show up here.
These are the five rounds that I am a little more confident with. They still have a slight bulge but the brass still seems straight for the most part. These are the three rounds that I am not happy with at all. This picture is just one of the three that has a bulge on it. The other two have the same thing. One is about the same and the other is a little less. This picture is one of the examples where I think the round may be seated crooked. It looks off to the right to me. Again, you can see the bulge in it as well. This last picture is unique. It has the bulge near the base, near where the bullet was seated in, it looks like it is caved in a little and the bullet looks a little crooked as it was seated. I hope the pics help. Again, sorry that I couldn't put it live on my post. I am not sure how to do that yet. Thanks again. |
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It sounds like you've tried almost everything to fix the issue, here are a few more.
1. Take the seating die apart and clean it, there may be something that has gotten inside. 2. You may have the seating die body down too far and are crimping well before the bullet is seated. Back the die out, insert a sized case in holder and raise ram. Screw body down till you feel it touch then back it out 1 full turn. Lock it down and see if that keeps depth the same. 3. Set up your single stage and try running a few with that press. If that works then you'll know something is wrong with the turret press. |
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I have never heard of a bullet seating punch. From what I could feel, the tip seems to be pretty firm, but again it is only my hand and not me running the ram up into the die. Maybe that handle allows me to use a little more leverage and that will change the tip? I am guessing at that. I always thought the dies were designed to not put pressure on the tip as much as it was to use (forgive me if this is wrong) a cantilliver that pushes down on the side of the bullet instead. So what is the punch? I am going to do some research to figure this out as well. Thank you for your advice. If it is what I think it is, I could use a small pin or something, mark it and see if it is equal...or am I over simplifying it? Quoted:
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I did not see any mention of bullet seating punch in use. Having punches made to match bullets used to be easy and common. Exposed lead bullet tips are pretty delicate things. If the jacket is thin at the tip it might as well be exposed lead. A seating punch that touches further down on the ogive of the bullet all around is less likely to deform a delicate tip. OAL to bullet tips is so error prone that using something to measure to the ogive is far more reliable and precise. So what is the punch? I am going to do some research to figure this out as well. Thank you for your advice. If it is what I think it is, I could use a small pin or something, mark it and see if it is equal...or am I over simplifying it? It may be the end of the adjustable stem or the stem may be flat with another piece shaped to match the nose of the bullet. The screw adjustable stem stops the movement of the smaller punch piece. The small punch piece is easily altered (or changed for another piece) to match the nose of the bullet. The fit of the bullet into the shell is an interference fit. The shell is expanded as the bullet is forced in so that their is sufficient neck tension (brass is elastic) to hold the bullet solidly. The forece developed by a reloading press can easily damage a bullet. RCBS stands for 'Rock Chucker Bullet Swage.' The press was intended originally to be able to swage bullets as well as reload cases. |
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It sounds like you've tried almost everything to fix the issue, here are a few more. 1. Take the seating die apart and clean it, there may be something that has gotten inside. 2. You may have the seating die body down too far and are crimping well before the bullet is seated. Back the die out, insert a sized case in holder and raise ram. Screw body down till you feel it touch then back it out 1 full turn. Lock it down and see if that keeps depth the same. 3. Set up your single stage and try running a few with that press. If that works then you'll know something is wrong with the turret press. |
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Inside the seating die there is a single piece that contacts the bullet nose. It may be the end of the adjustable stem or the stem may be flat with another piece shaped to match the nose of the bullet. The screw adjustable stem stops the movement of the smaller punch piece. The small punch piece is easily altered (or changed for another piece) to match the nose of the bullet. The fit of the bullet into the shell is an interference fit. The shell is expanded as the bullet is forced in so that their is sufficient neck tension (brass is elastic) to hold the bullet solidly. The forece developed by a reloading press can easily damage a bullet. RCBS stands for 'Rock Chucker Bullet Swage.' The press was intended originally to be able to swage bullets as well as reload cases. |
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Quoted:
It sounds like you've tried almost everything to fix the issue, here are a few more. 1. Take the seating die apart and clean it, there may be something that has gotten inside. 2. You may have the seating die body down too far and are crimping well before the bullet is seated. Back the die out, insert a sized case in holder and raise ram. Screw body down till you feel it touch then back it out 1 full turn. Lock it down and see if that keeps depth the same. 3. Set up your single stage and try running a few with that press. If that works then you'll know something is wrong with the turret press. I've been guilty of #2 and learned the hard way many years ago....seating and crimping should be 2 separate steps. |
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