Armory Sponsor
Posted: 1/7/2017 1:43:16 AM EDT
| Well I need some advice. I just ordered some .224 69 &77gr Sierra Match Kings for my AR platform. I thought I ordered the cannelured version but when I received the email confirmation, I believe they are not the cannelured version. Will I be able to use these in my AR and not crimp them? Do I need to abort and start over? He Lyman reloading book states that in a Semi-auto platform the bullets must be crimped. I don't really really know left from right I am new to reloading and just trying to get my foot in the door. |
|
You can crimp a non-cannelured bullet with the Lee FCD. But if you have the proper neck tension you don't even need to crimp for an AR.
I mean if you're trying to copy the MK-262 exactly, then you need a cannelured bullet, and a light crimp. You get a lot of people though tell you either way. I like to crimp my AR bullet's. Just my preference. |
|
I currently load for 5 AR-15s, a M1A and M1Garand a MAS 49-56 and a few other semiautomatic rifles. The only one I have found that needs a crimp is a 300 BO.
The funny thing about the BO is they actually get longer. The inertia of the bolt slamming closed is acting like a kinetic bullet puller. You should be fine not crimping your non-canalure bullets. There is a way to test for movement. While it is possible to use a Lee FCD on bullets that don't have a crimp groove l personally don't believe it is possible to create more neck tension by doing so. But that's another subject. Motor |
|
I have Dillion dies on a Rockchucker. I don't think I can adjust necktension?
Also have plans to load 300BLK. I pulled a factory Hornady it wasn't crimped, but all other factory loads where that I have(SIG, S&B, Federal). Thank you for the heads up. The "test" is seating a non charged round and cycling it thru the action and taking before and after measurements? |
|
Many folks with many different experiences and beliefs. Personally, I like to only use cannelured bullets in any caliber. Neck tension can vary depending upon the particular brass head stamp and I believe a crimp on a cannelure provides insurance. I also do not like to mix head stamps in my batches. I am not a long range target shooter, which a cannelure can negatively affect, I understand.
Example, I had a case of Blazer brass in .45 auto years ago when I was a beginning hand loader and discovered an issue at the range when my rounds just sounded and acted a bit differently than normal. Long story short, I discovered I could relatively easily press the bullet back into the case simply by pressing it on a hard object by hand. So as the round was being jammed into the feed ramp, the pressure was causing bullet set back. Lesson learned. No matter what adjustments I made to the dies, the problem still existed and I came to the conclusion it was the brass. I had no problems with any other head stamps. I was able to get around the problem somewhat by using an undersized Lee sizing die in my Hornady press. But in the end stayed away from that brass. And now as part of my reloading procedures, check most of the ammunition when I am done using hand pressure and a digital caliper- just because. Yes, an auto loader pistol loads differently than a rifle. And yes, I am anal retentive :-) and my procedures cause me to load at a much slower pace on a progressive press than most other folks. YMMV. |
|
Quoted:
I have Dillion dies on a Rockchucker. I don't think I can adjust necktension? Also have plans to load 300BLK. I pulled a factory Hornady it wasn't crimped, but all other factory loads where that I have(SIG, S&B, Federal). Thank you for the heads up. The "test" is seating a non charged round and cycling it thru the action and taking before and after measurements? Yes that is the initial test. Then when at the range shooting (while feeding from the magazine) periodically stop and eject the live round that was auto loaded and check it out. Motor |
|
Is the LEE FCD the only crimped that can do this?
I have a 3 piece die set from Dillion and all the needed components, however I have not began to reload yet. Still Learning! On my 3 piece dies on a non-cannelured bullet, I assume I would just use the first two dies in the sequence and skip the third(crimp). On another noted. I pulled a Barnes 5.56 69gr that was not crimped (or at least I couldn't tell, the bullet was non-cannelured) but the primer was crimped. The bullet seemed to have a black "glue"? Any thoughts on this? |
|
Quoted:
I have Dillion dies on a Rockchucker. I don't think I can adjust necktension? Also have plans to load 300BLK. I pulled a factory Hornady it wasn't crimped, but all other factory loads where that I have(SIG, S&B, Federal). Thank you for the heads up. The "test" is seating a non charged round and cycling it thru the action and taking before and after measurements? Remove the decapper assembly on the sizing die. Wipe off the sizing button with a rag and measure the diameter with a caliper. Do it several times until you are sure of your reading. In a 22 cal round shooting a .224 bullet, *sizing button should be .002 to .003 smaller than bullet diameter. So .222 to .221 should be your reading. This will give good neck tension. If button is too large, chuck decapper assembly in a drill and hold 400 grit sanding paper over button. Check your progress often as you can't put metal back. Should take about 10 minutes start to finish if your being careful and measuring often. If you want the smoothest finish on you sizing button use 600 grit to finish. If button is too small, contact die maker for a new button. with RCBS the new one will be free. *sizing button should be .002 to .003 smaller than bullet diameter. This is for all calibers. |
|
Quoted:
Wow. I have never thought of that or heard of that! Y'all are a great help. I was under the impression that it had to be done with the dies with the bushings only. I measured the expander ball on the 223 it measured .222 I'm not familiar with the Dillon 3 die set. I do know this: You should never attempt a roll crimp on a non-canalure jacketed rifle bullet. Nothing but bad things will you achieve like collapsed shoulders. The only "safe" crimps would be tapered or circumferential which is what the Lee collet does. As I stated above though, I don't believe an increase in neck tension is possible with either. You already have 100% contact between bullet and case neck. How can you squeeze them more tightly together? Motor |
|
Yes. The taper crimp should not cause you any problems. Typically though the taper crimp die is used to remove mouth flair. Mouth flair is usually a pistol "thing" but when loading high volume flat base rifle bullets on a progressive press a mouth flair is a tremendous aid in making things run smoothly. This is very likely why Dillon includes it in their set.
My question for you is: How are you going to adjust it? How are you going to determine if it's actually doing anything? If you adjust it down far enough that it decreases the diameter of the case neck at the case mouth you would have already gone way too far. I suggest going with no crimp. Then only IF you find you are having issues, address them. Motor |
|
Quoted:
It's a Taper crimp from what I understand. The Taper crimps dies in general, can they be used with non-cannelure bullets? Or am I looking at this all wrong? You could just get a Lee FCD and use it to remove any flare, if you expanded the case mouths. Then you don't have to worry about the taper crimp die damaging the bullet jacket. The Lee FCD is extremely easy to use. |
|
Quoted:
Wow. I have never thought of that or heard of that! Y'all are a great help. I was under the impression that it had to be done with the dies with the bushings only. I measured the expander ball on the 223 it measured .222 With cases that are not in the need of annealing, you will have good neck tension. Taper crimp is fine to use, just don't adjust for excessive crimp. When I taper crimp I can feel the slight resistance that indicates...just right. Confirm with a caliper, before and after. If using a progressive, clear press and only crimp so you can feel the slight resistance. Adjust as needed. Myself, I wouldn't crimp match bullets. |
Just for shits and giggles, here's Chris Bartocci, with a MK12 MOD1 rifle talking about the MK262 MOD O round,, and it's canellure.
 Failed To Load Title |
|
OP,
One of the most accurate mag-length 5.56MM factory loads I have fired to date is the BHA 5.56MM 77GR. SMK OTM AMU MATCH load. It is capable of sub 0.5 MOA accuracy when fired from an accurized AR15/M16 rifle. The AMU load was designed to be used in the AR15/M16 rifle & originally used the non-cannelured 77GR. SMK OTM bullet. But Jeff Hoffman from BHA stated that newer versions will/are using the cannelured 77GR. SMK OTM bullet. After real world testing, BHA realized that the same cannelured 77GR. SMK OTM bullet used in the BHA MK 262 MOD 1 combat cartridge is just as accurate in a MATCH cartridge as the non-cannelured version of the same bullet. No real difference in accuracy was seen short of firing in a test fixture. The important information for you is that the SMK bullets are not crimped in place nor are they sealed with asphaltum (tar) bullet sealer. The SMK bullets are held in place by proper case neck tension alone. Just be aware that repeatedly hard-chambering the same round in an autoloader will eventually cause the neck tension to relax allowing the bullet to move in the case mouth. I want crimped bullets on my 5.56MM SD/HD/hunting loads for the increased reliability but I never crimp 5.56MM accuracy loads. HTH 
|
|
OP,
We as handloaders are motivated to learn more; it is a requirement. I have been at it since '72 and I am not thru learning yet. Here is another sub 0.5 MOA capable factory load which also used the non-cannelured/uncrimped 77GR. SMK bullet in a new mil-spec case. At 80 degree F, the SWA load and the BHA AMU load chrono within 2 FPS of each other in the suppressed 18" SPR length upper I use (2744 FPS VS 2746 FPS@85 F). It is definitely a "sweet-spot" for my barrel. Headshots on steel out to 600yds. are routine in good conditions with either of these MATCH loads or the factory BHA MK 262 MOD 1 load/MAX 5.56MM NATO pressure TAC clone load. These MATCH accuracy loads are approx. 80 FPS slower but approx. 0.2 MOA or so more accurate than the factory BHA MK 262 MOD 1 AA53 combat load (2825 FPS@85 F). The big difference with IMR 8208 XBR propellant is the very high thermal stability (below). The SWA 5.56MM 77GR. SMK load tested used IMR 8208 XBR propellant: 
SWA 5.56MM 77GR. SMK load pulled down: This is a MAX 5.56MM NATO pressure factory load. SWA started out using H4895 in their 77GR. SMK load but switched to IMR 8208 XBR. Both are excellent propellants with similar burn rates. But due to shorter grain size, IMR 8208 XBR usually meters much more consistently than H4895. For use at shorter range, many shooters use the 77GR. SMK over 23.2 GR IMR 8208 XBR in #41 primed LC brass with excellent results. And it does not enlarge the primer pockets nearly as quickly as a MAX 5.56MM load. 
|
|
Quoted:
OP, We as handloaders are motivated to learn more; it is a requirement. I have been at it since '72 and I am not thru learning yet. Here is another sub 0.5 MOA capable factory load which also used the non-cannelured/uncrimped 77GR. SMK bullet in a new mil-spec case. At 80 degree F, the SWA load and the BHA AMU load chrono within 2 FPS of each other in the suppressed 18" SPR length upper I use (2744 FPS VS 2746 FPS@85 F). It is a definitely a "sweet-spot" for my barrel. Headshots on steel out to 600yds. are routine in good conditions with either of these MATCH loads or the factory BHA MK 262 MOD 1 load/MAX 5.56MM NATO pressure TAC clone load. These MATCH accuracy loads are approx. 80 FPS slower but approx. 0.2 MOA or so more accurate than the factory BHA MK 262 MOD 1 AA53 combat load (2825 FPS@85 F). The big difference with IMR 8208 XBR propellant is the very high thermal stability (below). SWA 5.56MM 77GR. SMK load pulled down: This is a MAX 5.56MM NATO pressure factory load. SWA started out using H4895 in their 77GR. SMK load but switched to IMR 8208 XBR. IMR 8208 XBR usually meters much more consistently than H4895. For use at shorter range, many shooters use the 77GR. SMK over 23.2 GR IMR 8208 XBR in #41 primed LC brass with excellent results. And it does not enlarge the primer pockets nearly as quickly as a MAX 5.56MM load. Very good post. The sweet spot for 77gr Match Kings, and 77gr STMKs were 23.2gr of XBR 8208 (I have a feeling, based on what I have gathered from the intrawebs, this may be a FGGM "works well in every rifle load". Â I bumped up the SMK load .7gr (admittedly, the 23.2gr load was outstanding) due to a little extra velocity for hunting predators. |
|
Quoted:
Very good post. The sweet spot for 77gr Match Kings, and 77gr STMKs were 23.2gr of XBR 8208 (I have a feeling, based on what I have gathered from the intrawebs, this may be a FGGM "works well in every rifle load". Â I bumped up the SMK load .7gr (admittedly, the 23.2gr load was outstanding) due to a little extra velocity for hunting predators. I agree. IMR 8208 XBR works very well at 5.56MM pressure. Will give it the chance to shine in 6.5CR next week. |
|
Actually, the first MK 262 was with Nosler bullets, because Sierra would not provide a cannelured version of their 77gr SMK at the time.
The thing that gets lost on so many people is that they reload brass till it is tired! And, has no neck tension. My rule of thumb is after the 5 firing in a semi auto they are trashed! Of course, people can with extra care to extend semi auto case life like annealing, and custom sizing of the brass to match a particular chamber etc. If the brass is in good shape you will have plenty of neck tension! And, I have loaded for a lot different semi auto platforms, and never crimped any accept some blasting ammo in 223 with 55gr FMJ. AR 15 / AR 10 / M1A / M1 Garand / HK 91 and 93 / Mini 14 In the end let your gun do the talking! The only way to control neck tension in a reloaded rounds using good brass with known # of firings. You can take down the diameter of the expander ball to adjust neck tension You can have Forster custom hone FL size dies to to your specs to aid in controlling neck tension You can use Forster or Redding Bushing dies. |
Armory Sponsor