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Posted: 7/11/2016 9:14:06 AM EDT
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Lately I've been using Berry's 123gr .311 bullets for cheap plinking rounds in 7.62x39 and 30-06 and decided to use them for my 1st foray in 7.62x54R loadings for Mosin-Nagants. I should have just stayed in bed yesterday instead of going to the range to shoot these loads. It was a disaster and I got no useful data at all.
I had 4 primers fire but not light the powder. I also had 3 very noticeable hang fires. They were like shooting a flintlock rifle, pull the trigger, click........BOOM ! All 4 of the ones that didn't fire stuck the bullet in the bore. They weren't in very far, after I got them out they didn't have rifling marks on them. And there was burnt and unburnt powder everywhere. I had to clean all of it out each time it happened. PITA. Help me figure out what caused this because I can't. I use the same bullet, powder and primers for 30-06 and this hasn't happened even once. Load specifics : PPU brass cases 123gr Berry's plated bullet .311 dia. Winchester Large Rifle primer BLC-2 powder in charge weights ranging from 44.0gr - 47.0gr. The 45.0gr and 45.5gr charges were the ones that gave me the problems. Also, one of them that fired normal gave me a good blast of hot gas in the face. I'm left-handed so after I fired that round I inhaled and got both lungs full of burnt powder gasses. It was enough to make me choke and cough. The case was sooty the full length and the primer was intact so I figured these first starting loads were a little under powered and didn't expand the case to seal the chamber and gave me a blast in the face. Anyways, back to the problem loads. The only thing I can think of that would cause this is bad primers. They all came out of the same sleeve but I had already used 20 of them for some AK rounds I just made and shot that day. They were fine. So, what in the heck happened that caused the powder not to ignite and cause hang fires that could be measured with an hourglass ? |
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On the rifle end I'd double check the headspace and firing pin protrusion. Too much headspace or insufficient protrusion and you may not be getting a good primer hit.
I would hardly hang my hat on that though. Gas in the face indicates you're not getting pressure to seal the neck (short of a rupture but you'd notice that  )
Not sure why, your start load sounds lower than a start load for that size bullet without looking at a manual but you'd be getting close to a start load with where you had the problem around 45-46 grains. ETA and plated aint jacketed so there is no direct comparison. Plated acts a lot closer to cast lead bullets than jacketed. Also try another primer, maybe even a magnum to help ensure a good light. I know if I was using a cast lead bullets which I do in very reduced loads I used a pistol powder. (don't gasp in shock, these reduced loads have been around for a century or better, but don't do them if you haven't read about them. Anyway my point is plated bullets act more like cast bullets. IMR4895 is a standard powder that can be reduced within reason. I don't recall BLC2 being discussed as a powder for reduced loads. So with a light charge of it, and a plated bullet, you may not have the pressure build up for a proper burn. |
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The headspace and firing pin are fine. This rifle, a Chinese T-53, has fired many hundreds of surplus rounds without any problems.
The charges are intentionally low to keep them around the 2000fps max that Berry's recommends for these bullets. I use 45gr of BLC-2 in 30-06 with these same bullets and have not had a single problem and are a very accurate load. 45gr in a much bigger case would be where you'd think problems would arise but it works fine. That's what is confusing. I have CCI standard and magnum primers. I could try those to see if they light up better. I've been looking for some IMR4895 locally to try out but can't find it. Now might be a good time to put out a big order online for some of it. Is H-4895 the same ? Where would I find info on pistol powder for use in rifles ? I have a metric shit ton of HP-38 I could use if it's compatible for this caliber. |
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My Garand hang fires with H-335 unless I use magnum primers.
You problem is not uncommon. Light charges of ball powder will do this. I didn't go research to see if you are using published data. If you are I'd bet magnum primers will solve your problem. If you are not using published data I would stop using a ball type powder to make reduced loads. Motor |
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That charge of up to 48 grains is way too lite to charge a 7.62x54R case. Starting charge is 56gr according to Hodgdon. This is also why you got the blowback in your face, because not enough chamber pressure to seal the case to the chamber walls. Doesn't look like you're going to be able to use those plated bullets, since getting to the point the case seals the chamber is going to put you way over the 2000fps point. |
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It looks like the loads I started with were too low to get enough pressure to burn right, also it may have been the primers too.
Hodgdon's site says 56gr of BLC-2 for a 125gr jacketed bullet to start, But, it says 53gr in 30-06 for the same bullet and powder ??? I started with 44gr because 45gr works well for me for 30-06 assuming that these two cartridges are in the same class. I wasn't totally wrong since the charges starting working better the higher I went. I'm gonna try a different primer and go the same route as I did with the 30-06, start higher and work DOWN til I find the most accurate load. Meanwhile I'm going to order some IMR 4895 to make proper, full power 150gr FMJ loads. Thanks for the help guys ! |
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Quoted: Hey Forty5cal you may want to get some H-4895 instead. You can safely reduce it to 60% of normal maximum load. Just a suggestion. Motor Hodgdon recommends H4895 for reduced loads, I have used it extensively in 30-06, 7.62x54R and 8mm Mauser for reduced loads, absolutely no trouble at all. Here's some info from them: https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf |
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google C.E. Harris reduced loads.
powders used Red dot, bullseye, 2400 from my perusing. IMR SR4759 powder was my go to for reduced milsurp rifle loads. I think it's been discontinued though. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com/topic/2704#.V4VlvkrD9jo I have used trailboss too. It works decently. When I load I load lightish gallery type loads. ETA- reading the article again, he mentions using W231 therefore your Hp38 will work. |
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Quoted:
Hey Forty5cal you may want to get some H-4895 instead. You can safely reduce it to 60% of normal maximum load. Just a suggestion. Motor Excellent suggestion ! Thank you Motor. And thank you to Wingman and SteelonSteel for those links. You've just opened a whole new door full of interesting ideas, the pistol powder for rifle loads just being one of them. H-4895 WILL be ordered, and lots of it ! I can use it for full power loads or reduced ones. Sounds really versatile. I remember Dryflash posting that he uses a Lee 155gr mold for 7.62x39 loads. That mold is .312 dia so it should work well for that caliber but also x54R too. And if I have to size it down a little more to fit 30-06 that'll be an added bonus. Thanks for more great info. I'm off to Midway to order a mold and other parts, then to a powder vendor. |
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H4895 is a very good powder in my book. I still have some IMR4895 too but for around the same money I will be only buying the H version in the future. The H version is listed as temp stable although the I version is pretty damn stable too. For me it was a matter of consolidation in the powder magazine.
4895 is great for full power use in all your milsurp and most big game hunting cartridges as well as your AR rifle loads. Bonus is the IMR version is reducable as discussed. A call to Hodgdon might be prudent to discuss doing the same with the H version. I think H4895 is about as good as Varget for my use and easier to find. |
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You seem a little confused. The "H" version IS the one Hodgdon uses for its reduced and youth loads. No big deal.
There are actually quite a few powders that can be used reduced but it's nice to have the manufacturer data to support it. I use the Lee 160gr 2R TL cast bullet. I size it .311" for .308s and what I do for the 54R depends on which one (s) I'm loading for. The 155gr is good too. I think more people use it then the 160. Motor |
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Quoted:
google C.E. Harris reduced loads. powders used Red dot, bullseye, 2400 from my perusing. IMR SR4759 powder was my go to for reduced milsurp rifle loads. I think it's been discontinued though. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com/topic/2704#.V4VlvkrD9jo I have used trailboss too. It works decently. When I load I load lightish gallery type loads. ETA- reading the article again, he mentions using W231 therefore your Hp38 will work. ^^^THIS^^^ BLC-(2) is way too slow plus it's a somewhat difficult to light ball powder. I've loaded and fired jillions of cast bullet rounds for the 303 British, 30-06, 308 Win, 7.62x54r and 7.5x55. Pistol/shotgun powders are your best choice. If I had to pick just one, it'd hands down be 2400. that said, 12.0 to 13.0 grs. of Red Dot is a very, very good load in any "normal" .30 caliber cartridge. Too, I distinctly remember 12.0 grs. of Unique turning in some excellent groups. With 2400 anywhere from 16.0 up to 20+ grs. groups well. I know you're just wanting to plink, but I wouldn't fart around with lightweight bullets. The heavier bullets such as those from a Lyman 314299 mould, have a nice, long bearing surface which contributes significantly to accuracy. 
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OP , I had the same exact experience with BLC-2 and WLP's, in .45/70.
It was a starting load I got from Lee's Modern Reloading. I called Sierra Bullets (I was loading Sierra 300gr. JHP) and talked to a tech. He said BLC-2 was a poor choice for that application due to density. I just tried it because I had a bunch of the powder and the data. It was a poor decision, but luckily no harm no foul. I'm also a big fan of Ed Harris' Red Dot and 2400 reduced loads, but Hodgdon's reduced load formula for H4895 is a winner too. |
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Quoted: Excellent suggestion ! Thank you Motor. And thank you to Wingman and SteelonSteel for those links. You've just opened a whole new door full of interesting ideas, the pistol powder for rifle loads just being one of them. H-4895 WILL be ordered, and lots of it ! I can use it for full power loads or reduced ones. Sounds really versatile. I remember Dryflash posting that he uses a Lee 155gr mold for 7.62x39 loads. That mold is .312 dia so it should work well for that caliber but also x54R too. And if I have to size it down a little more to fit 30-06 that'll be an added bonus. Thanks for more great info. I'm off to Midway to order a mold and other parts, then to a powder vendor. Quoted: Quoted: Hey Forty5cal you may want to get some H-4895 instead. You can safely reduce it to 60% of normal maximum load. Just a suggestion. Motor Excellent suggestion ! Thank you Motor. And thank you to Wingman and SteelonSteel for those links. You've just opened a whole new door full of interesting ideas, the pistol powder for rifle loads just being one of them. H-4895 WILL be ordered, and lots of it ! I can use it for full power loads or reduced ones. Sounds really versatile. I remember Dryflash posting that he uses a Lee 155gr mold for 7.62x39 loads. That mold is .312 dia so it should work well for that caliber but also x54R too. And if I have to size it down a little more to fit 30-06 that'll be an added bonus. Thanks for more great info. I'm off to Midway to order a mold and other parts, then to a powder vendor. Just depends on how you size them. I size to .310 for 300 blk, and .312 for 7.62x39 after powder coating. |
Geez, Dryflash, you just threw another monkey into the mix. 
Do I powder coat or not ? I know most of the pros and cons of both and I'm all set up for standard lube/sizing and gas checks. Is powder coating worth the extra equipment ( toaster oven and cookie sheets) and all the time spent setting each bullet on a cookie sheet? I think it would be faster and easier to just lube/size the standard way since they have to be run through a sizer anyway after coating them or before to seat GC's. Do you guys that powder coat mind trying to convince me that's a better way to go? |
If you feel like you don't want to powder coat I suggest that you don't try it. Because once you have tried it you will NEVER go back to lube. 
I resisted for a long time but then shake and bake came along and I already had a toaster oven that wasn't being used so I bought a pound of Harbor freight red and a roll of non stick aluminum foil and tried it. I haven't lubed a single bullet since. Motor |
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Quoted: Geez, Dryflash, you just threw another monkey into the mix. Do I powder coat or not ? I know most of the pros and cons of both and I'm all set up for standard lube/sizing and gas checks. Is powder coating worth the extra equipment ( toaster oven and cookie sheets) and all the time spent setting each bullet on a cookie sheet? I think it would be faster and easier to just lube/size the standard way since they have to be run through a sizer anyway after coating them or before to seat GC's. Do you guys that powder coat mind trying to convince me that's a better way to go? If you want to shoot cast bullets faster than current lube will allow, want no leading, and no smoke when firing, then you should try powder coating. |
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Faster, no leading and no smoke sounds good. I'll give it a try.
It shouldn't be hard to find a toaster oven and cookies sheets at garage sales/ flea markets real cheap. Since there's no leading, does that mean there won't be any leading or powder coating on the forcing cone of revolvers ? Also, has anyone done any long term testing on barrel wear using powder coating? It hasn't been around very long and I admit I've done no research into it, hell, you guys just now talked me into trying it. Does it have any kind of abrasive properties, however minute ? When I do start PC'ing I'm going to PC every lead bullet I use, pistol and rifle, and that's a LOT of bullets. Ever since I started reloading I've been shooting lead in all my pistols. Not just because it's cheaper but I find lead to be more accurate at shorter ranges. I just like lead bullets for some reason and until a few posts ago didn't know how to use lead and reduced loads for bottlenecked rifle cartridges. Now, I'll probably use lead almost exclusively except for full power loads. So, any problems with barrel wear using PC and does it leave any kind of residue behind ? |
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Quoted:
You seem a little confused. The "H" version IS the one Hodgdon uses for its reduced and youth loads. No big deal. There are actually quite a few powders that can be used reduced but it's nice to have the manufacturer data to support it. I use the Lee 160gr 2R TL cast bullet. I size it .311" for .308s and what I do for the 54R depends on which one (s) I'm loading for. The 155gr is good too. I think more people use it then the 160. Motor Thank you, I've read old reduced loads with IMR IIRC but wasn't confident that Hodgdon blessed the practice. Very good to know. That said I use mostly pistol powders for my reduced loads with lead. and yes the 311299, 312299, 314299 are the place to start in my opinion for milsurps. High volume, get a 3 or 4 hole mold, Low volume, by a two hole mold with one cavity plain base and the other gas check base. Personally I waste the extra penny and just gas check all my rifle lead bullets. Pistol I go totally checkless at the moment. |
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You're best bet is to run over to the Cast Boolit forum where they have an entire section devoted to coatings.
One theme that rarely arises in PC discussions is accuracy. My guess is it's difficult to apply a coating of powder evenly thereby maintaining the concentricity of the bullet, and a bullet that isn't concentric, won't be very accurate. Ocassionally someone will post a picture of a pretty decent group but they're normally either at relatively short range, or they're a single instance. But all that aside, most folks who do it seem happy with the kewl colors, lack of leading and lack of smoke (that one always baffled me). Like so many things, it boils down to your expectations of your bullet's and what's most important to you. On the other hand it's my understanding the liquid coatings such as Hi-tek work well. I have a buddy that is an ardent revolver shooter that buys Hi-tek coated bullets. He is an amazing shot with a revolver so I know he wouldn't use these coated bullets if they weren't extremely accurate. For me, tradiational lubing and sizing methods have always worked in the accuracy and clean bore departments so I see no need in changing. |
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Quoted: Faster, no leading and no smoke sounds good. I'll give it a try. It shouldn't be hard to find a toaster oven and cookies sheets at garage sales/ flea markets real cheap. Forget the cookie sheets. What's needed is a non stick surface that you use on top of the tray that comes with the oven. Silicone baking mats, parchment paper, or non stick foil. I use the first 2. My toaster oven was less than $20 new at wallyworld. Since there's no leading, does that mean there won't be any leading or powder coating on the forcing cone of revolvers ? No. Also, has anyone done any long term testing on barrel wear using powder coating? It hasn't been around very long and I admit I've done no research into it, hell, you guys just now talked me into trying it. Does it have any kind of abrasive properties, however minute ? The guys at Cast Bullets report none of these problems, some have been doing this for 2-3 years. This forum, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives When I do start PC'ing I'm going to PC every lead bullet I use, pistol and rifle, and that's a LOT of bullets. Ever since I started reloading I've been shooting lead in all my pistols. Not just because it's cheaper but I find lead to be more accurate at shorter ranges. I just like lead bullets for some reason and until a few posts ago didn't know how to use lead and reduced loads for bottlenecked rifle cartridges. Now, I'll probably use lead almost exclusively except for full power loads. So, any problems with barrel wear using PC and does it leave any kind of residue behind ? What PC does is turn a lead bullet into a jacketed bullet (almost). That's what they shoot like. Do some reading at that link. Tells what you need and how to coat bullets. Look into the dry "shake and bake" method unless you want to get a PC gun and compressor. Read the stickies. This is where I learned what I know. |
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I just spent the last hour and a half over there reading about PC'ing bullets and didn't even scratch the surface of this new method, lots of reading and learning to do. But I like it ! I'm always reading posts here and elsewhere learning more and more about a hobby that I'm really interested in.
I copied and saved that link so I can go back there again. You're right, those guys really have this PC'ing thing down to a science and I'm gonna learn as much as I can about it. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction to get the info I need....again, because you've done this before. It's much appreciated. Thanks to all you guys for your input, ideas and experience. ETA: I think it would be a good idea to get 2 trays because I could be loading up the other one while one is cooking. |
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Quoted: I just spent the last hour and a half over there reading about PC'ing bullets and didn't even scratch the surface of this new method, lots of reading and learning to do. But I like it ! I'm always reading posts here and elsewhere learning more and more about a hobby that I'm really interested in. I copied and saved that link so I can go back there again. You're right, those guys really have this PC'ing thing down to a science and I'm gonna learn as much as I can about it. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction to get the info I need....again, because you've done this before. It's much appreciated. Thanks to all you guys for your input, ideas and experience. ETA: I think it would be a good idea to get 2 trays because I could be loading up the other one while one is cooking.  I made an extra tray by cutting a sheet of aluminum to the correct size. Just make sure it's thick enough to not flex under the weight of the bullets. I'm not a sheet metal guy, so can't quote a gauge thickness. |
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Forty5cal, don't over think it, just get the basics and do some. It does help to have an accurate reading on your oven temperature though.
Until I made grate that will allow my 30 cal bullets to bake standing up I just baked them laying down. The little contact patch where they lay on the non stick aluminum foil gets smoothed over when you size them. Harbor freight red is probably the easiest and least expensive way to get started. The red works the best for shake and bake. You'll soon be another convert.
Motor |
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