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Posted: 1/14/2015 11:09:10 AM EDT
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Greetings. I have been looking into loading rifle cartridges over the last couple weeks and I have some questions. I have two .308s (one bolt gun and a PTR91) and a few AR15s (one is a scoped 20" which is likely the only one I'd load these rounds for). My purpose, at this point, is to get started loading more precision and hunting rounds rather than loading for quantity.
Background: 4 years loading pistol rounds (counted all my primer boxes up and I'm at 38,000, I'd guess half of that is in the last 18 months). Not a loading newbie, but not much experience outside of pistol and shotgun. Presses: Lee single stage and new to me Dillon 650. The Dillon only needs a couple of parts and a toolhead or two to load both .308 and .223, but I'm perfectly happy to start on the single stage. Other Equipment: I believe I have most of what I need save for a trimmer and some of the extra measuring tools (such as the clamp for the calipers to measure the neck and bullet ogive). I will also need a swager eventually because I have a bunch of military brass, but I have enough commercial brass for both right now. I have a few gift cards for bass pro shops, and was checking out trimmers on there. I see this one for what looks to be a reasonable price. Lyman 5 star rated and has a power attachment available if I want to kick up the volume a little bit. I don't have the desire to drop the money for a Dillon power trimmer right now but I can see doing so in the future. I have a two die set for each caliber... an RCBS for .308 and a Hornady set for .223. Both have full length sizing dies. It's kinda funny to say but I really don't have a preference of which one to start with. I have one pound containers of a few different rifle powders on hand (W748, W760, and IMR 4064). I have some assorted bullets for the .308 I have picked up from here and there. I don't currently have any .22 cal rifle bullets but I know the best factory groups I had came from 40 grain and 75 grain bullets. Just guessing but the .308 might be the best to start with since it's a bolt gun? Or does that really make much of a difference? One advantage of the AR15 is I have a bunch of Remington .223 I could shoot out of it now and have brass that I know left that chamber, whereas the .308 was all once fired from unknown rifles. I have $125 in gift cards from Bass Pro, so I could get some bullets or tools on there in addition to the trimmers. Primers are available locally as is various powder, though it looks like the powder I have would work okay. So... advice? |
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You will need case prep tools
I have the Hornady Cam lok case trimmer w the drill attachment... I like it pretty well, But the lyman will do the exact same thing. You will need chamfering and deburring tools, primmer pocket tools, & tools for deburring the flash hole. For that I use the RCBS trim mate with various attachments. If you plan to convert mil brass you will need a swager (I use the Dillon 600) or reamer (RCBS has these for the trim mate). |
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I would start with the 308 bolt action rifle. I load for both a BAR10 and a Savage Striker bolt action pistol. I have found the 308 to be a easy round to reload for and there is a lot of good data out there. I have worked up different loads for each gun, as they will handle pressures differently. The powders that you have on hand are a good place to start, but you may find better powders on down the line. For my BAR10, I have plinking loads, hunting and some loads for serious long range shooting, so you can have lots of fun.
Keep us posted on how well you do and be safe! |
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The 308 Win and 223/5.56 are not hard to load for. You don't "need" any special measuring tools but some are nice to have.
Use your single stage press for the 308 to start and set the dies up according to the instructions for a "full length sizing" you did say the brass was random, fired in different rifles, correct? Besides a trimmer you will need to lube the cases also. You need to lube the case body (but not the outside of the neck) too much lube on the outside of the neck can cause dents on the shoulder. You need to lube the inside of the neck too. Spray lubes do get onto the outside of the neck but typically not enough to cause dents. I deburr all of my rifle case necks inside and out and recommend a VLD inside de burring tool. It's a sharp 120' instead of the typical 90' The 90' will often leave a burr of it's own. Of the 3 powders you have, I have used W748 and IMR 4064 with very good results in the 308 Win. You'll very likely find good loads for those 2 in 223 also with some bullet weights. Over all length for the 223 is simple. You need to make them fit the magazine. For the 308 you can start by using published data and just make sure they are not too long or you can measure the "contact length" (the OAL at which the seated bullet contacts the rifling when chambered) using 1 of several methods some of which there is tools sold to do that specific task. |
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Quoted:
You will need case prep tools I do have a few other miscellaneous things other than what I posted, I'll grab them up and post. I basically got a whole reloading kit with the Lee single stage that a guy didn't use... it sat around for a few years unsed before he gave it to me, but it all looks to be in good shape. ETA I have a chamfer/deburr tool and a primer pocket cleaner. I have the Hornady Cam lok case trimmer w the drill attachment... I like it pretty well, But the lyman will do the exact same thing. You will need chamfering and deburring tools, primmer pocket tools, & tools for deburring the flash hole. For that I use the RCBS trim mate with various attachments. If you plan to convert mil brass you will need a swager (I use the Dillon 600) or reamer (RCBS has these for the trim mate). My plan for now is just to use the commercial brass until I buy a swager. I drink the Blue Koolaid and will likely buy the Dillon when I get one. |
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Quoted:
The 308 Win and 223/5.56 are not hard to load for. You don't "need" any special measuring tools but some are nice to have. Use your single stage press for the 308 to start and set the dies up according to the instructions for a "full length sizing" you did say the brass was random, fired in different rifles, correct? For the .308, yes. Besides a trimmer you will need to lube the cases also. You need to lube the case body (but not the outside of the neck) too much lube on the outside of the neck can cause dents on the shoulder. You need to lube the inside of the neck too. Spray lubes do get onto the outside of the neck but typically not enough to cause dents. I've got lube I deburr all of my rifle case necks inside and out and recommend a VLD inside de burring tool. It's a sharp 120' instead of the typical 90' The 90' will often leave a burr of it's own. Of the 3 powders you have, I have used W748 and IMR 4064 with very good results in the 308 Win. You'll very likely find good loads for those 2 in 223 also with some bullet weights. Over all length for the 223 is simple. You need to make them fit the magazine. For the 308 you can start by using published data and just make sure they are not too long or you can measure the "contact length" (the OAL at which the seated bullet contacts the rifling when chambered) using 1 of several methods some of which there is tools sold to do that specific task. I am aware of tools being sold to measure the contact length... is there a downside to simply shutting the bullet on top of an empty case into the chamber and measuring it after removing it? |
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You don't really need to measure length to lands unless you want to load heavy bullets in your bolt action. The HK 91 clone has to be loaded close to 2.800" maximum. That OAL" will work great in the bolt action as well. Most factory bolt actions come with a long throat, too long to use anything shorter than 190+ grain bullets and still get close to the lands.
You will want Hornady's Lock-N-Load headspace gage. It will allow you to resize your brass to fit your rifles. The bolt action needs -.001" minimum clearance and the semi-auto's need closer to -.004" shorter than the fired case measurement. I resize all rifle brass on a single stage paying close attention to headspace. Different case brands can resize differently and you need to be aware of that. Imperial Sizing Die wax is the best I've used. Spray lubes (especially Hornady One-Shot) are insufficient for resizing .308 IMO. They may or may not be OK with .223 depending on your application. After resizing I use a power three-way trimmer then tumble the lube off with plain untreated corn cob. It's now ready to prime and/or load on your Dillon. If I could only choose a single powder for loading .308 and .223 it would be any of the following: RE-15 Varget N140 H4895 IMR-8208 XBR Surplus .308 brass weighs close to 180 grains empty and unprimed. Commercial brass runs between 155 to 165 grains empty and unprimed depending on the brand. This difference is reflected in reduced internal capacity in military brass that requires a 2.0 full grain reduction in powder charges. Don't mix them together. |
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"I am aware of tools being sold to measure the contact length... is there a downside to simply shutting the bullet on top of an empty case into the chamber and measuring it after removing it?"
No not really. This is one of those skill level things. If you know what you are doing and am good at improvising you end up with the same results as using the "purpose made measuring tools". If you are using a factory rifle you can simply use the cartridge overall length listed in the reloading manual but only do this if you have the data to match the specific bullet. Example would be using a Hornady manual and the specific Hornady bullet. You may be very surprised at how accurate loading this way can be. The .308 Win is typically easy to get very good accuracy with. I say keep it simple until you get fully engaged. 
The same goes for case sizing. Set your dies for maximum effect. You did say the .308 was a bolt action. Later if you want, switch to a neck only sizing die. For typical range type shooting the neck only sizing is the way to go for your bolt action. Its more accurate and will extend your case life. If you get into annealing it will extend your case life dramatically. |
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Let me address your trimmer question. I have never used that Lyman trimmer, as I have a couple of RCBS's. http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=rcbs+lathe+trimmer It comes as a manual or powered, I have used both since 1997. One of the best things about this trimmer is you can upgrade to a 3 way trimmer. On the lower right side of the page I linked. 3 Way cutter, trims, and deburs inside and out all at the same time. A nice time saver. I use mine for calibers I don't have set up for my Giraud. Welcome to rifle reloading, just a couple more steps than pistol reloading. |
| When I started out reloading for rifle, I full length resized and kept the COL at 2.8" to keep it simple. I was reloading for a Winchester Model 100 (magazine fed semi-auto.) When i purchased my Savage 110FP, I began to play with neck resizing. At this point my groups are limited to my personal skill, so I haven't played with seating depth yet. |
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Quoted:
Let me address your trimmer question. I have never used that Lyman trimmer, as I have a couple of RCBS's. http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=rcbs+lathe+trimmer It comes as a manual or powered, I have used both since 1997. One of the best things about this trimmer is you can upgrade to a 3 way trimmer. On the lower right side of the page I linked. 3 Way cutter, trims, and deburs inside and out all at the same time. A nice time saver. I use mine for calibers I don't have set up for my Giraud. Welcome to rifle reloading, just a couple more steps than pistol reloading. I figure it's very likely that I upgrade to a Dillon trimmer eventually. My main concerns for one at this point are: - It's not a POS - It's sold by Bass Pro (gift card ie I get it for free) |
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Quoted:
When I started out reloading for rifle, I full length resized and kept the COL at 2.8" to keep it simple. I was reloading for a Winchester Model 100 (magazine fed semi-auto.) When i purchased my Savage 110FP, I began to play with neck resizing. At this point my groups are limited to my personal skill, so I haven't played with seating depth yet. For the .308 they will likely only be fired through my bolt gun (700AAC). I'm not concerned with loading for the PTR91, as I've got several hundred more rounds of Wolf I can feed it. |
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I have a DILLON trimmer for 223/556.. bring your brass over..
The 308 / 30-06 / 22-250, I just use the LEE stud thingie and Makita.. Have a RCBS swager you can bum also,, and as Dryflash likes,, the Hornady crimp reamer bits.. English might still have como box on wall, seen 1 Monday night, you'll have to look |
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Quoted: It helps that he lives 15 minutes down the road. Quoted: Quoted: Loading with a fellow Arfcommer, doesn't get any better than that.  It helps that he lives 15 minutes down the road. Was NW556 that got me to join Arfcom.
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I think I might go with this one after watching videos of thier use.
http://m.basspro.com/Lyman-E-Zee-Trim-Hand-Case-Trimmer-Rifle-Set/product/1212171303/?cmCat=CROSSSELL_PRODUCT&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.basspro.com%2FLyman-EZee-Trim-Hand-Case-Trimmer-Handgun-Set%2Fproduct%2F1212171304%2F%3Futm_referrer%3Ddirect%252Fnot%2520provided |
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Quoted:
I think I might go with this one after watching videos of thier use. http://m.basspro.com/Lyman-E-Zee-Trim-Hand-Case-Trimmer-Rifle-Set/product/1212171303/?cmCat=CROSSSELL_PRODUCT&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.basspro.com%2FLyman-EZee-Trim-Hand-Case-Trimmer-Handgun-Set%2Fproduct%2F1212171304%2F%3Futm_referrer%3Ddirect%252Fnot%2520provided I'd recommend a lathe type, mine hands got really sore when I was using a similar trimmer. |
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Hmmm I load both so I'll share or technically ramble on a bit abut what I use.
I use the RCBS manual crank lathe type trimmer. Only I took the handle off and chucked up a $25 dollar 1/2" drill from Harbor Freight on it. Trimming isn't a big deal now. If you have the disposable income the "Worlds Greatest Trimmer" in both calibers and a drill press work great I hear. I don't mind the time so much but my arm couldn't take doing hundreds of cases at a time. For your bolt gun pick up a neck resize only die for AFTER you've shot the brass the first time. It saves wear and tear on your brass. Once you've fired a round in the bolt gun it's fire formed to your specific chamber and you don't need to full length size it again. This also avoids having to trim it because it won't stretch much or at all the next few shots. I typically get 3 or 4 loads out of brass this way before I anneal and Fl size it again. For a semi always full length resize every time. Also fire formed brass is only good for the gun you shot it in. Don't use the brass in another gun without full length resizing it. Calipers are necessary. Harbor Freight sells a digital caliper for $10 bucks or so that matches down to the ten thousands with my more expensive dial calipers. It does use a weird battery but you can get a string of them from amazon fairly cheap. Get extras if you don't have a analog caliper as back up. A loading tray is a nice to have. A good funnel is good to have to avoid powder spillage. For real precision a quality scale is a must. You can pick up a jewler's scale from Scales The Jennings Mack 50 or 100 or the GemPro 250 or 500 are quality scales with good precision, down to .02 grains. Be warned the Mack 50 / 100 scales are not sealed. You have to be very careful when you use them as powder measures if you spill powder on the base plate and try to blow it off it can go down inside the unit where it can cause problems by getting into the pressure sensors. The GemPro series, so far, knock wood, hasn't had that issue for me but I've been extremely careful to make sure I don't get powder inside the unit. Alternately you can try to get an old school Ohaus 505 or 510 or 1010 beam scale on Ebay that is usually good to about a tenth of a grain. The best units are the ones made in the US many many years ago before they were all farmed out to Mexico and China. They also command a premium and expect to pay $100-200 for one depending on it's condition. A case chamfering/deburring tool is necessary especially if you're loading flat base bullets. Otherwise you'll shave fractional pieces of your copper off seating them and base imperfections affect accuracy more so than tip imperfections. Boat tails are more forgiving. A Lee Factory Crimp Die may be useful for precision. I find it seems to help me in close groups that last quarter MOA. YMMV If it's just accuracy the best bang for the buck I've found is the Hornady Amax's is 168gr and 178gr in 308. They're not hunting bullets though. For 556 the Hornady VMax in 50gr over Benchmark are laser shooters for me in my AR SPR but the light weight makes them suffer badly due to wind after a couple hundred yards. 69gr Nosler CC's are better for me in my system. For heavier bullets for precision, 4064, RL15 or Varget are good to great powders for most rifles. For the lighter weights in 556, I've had best results with Benchmark and 322. To start with seat to factory length and find a combination that works for you. Then play around with seating depths. You can use a tool or just mostly resize a case so that the bullet your working with is a friction fit and then chamber it multiple times and get the average COAL tand that's your max depth. Bullets can like different jumps. Amax for me seems to prefer a 20 thousands of a jump which in my Savage means I have a COAL of 2.825. SMK's prefer less of a jump. YMMV In my experience with my AR's chambers are so long that there's no way you can seat them close and still get them to feed from a mag. So I just seat them to the standard and can get 1 MOA or less from most combinations of bullets and powders in my SPR. |
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For your bolt gun pick up a neck resize only die for AFTER you've shot the brass the first time. It saves wear and tear on your brass. Once you've fired a round in the bolt gun it's fire formed to your specific chamber and you don't need to full length size it again. This also avoids having to trim it because it won't stretch much or at all the next few shots. I typically get 3 or 4 loads out of brass this way before I anneal and Fl size it again. For a semi always full length resize every time. Also fire formed brass is only good for the gun you shot it in. Don't use the brass in another gun without full length resizing it. Why couldn't I bump the shoulder back if I keep using the reloads in the same AR? |
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Quoted: Why couldn't I bump the shoulder back if I keep using the reloads in the same AR? Quoted: For your bolt gun pick up a neck resize only die for AFTER you've shot the brass the first time. It saves wear and tear on your brass. Once you've fired a round in the bolt gun it's fire formed to your specific chamber and you don't need to full length size it again. This also avoids having to trim it because it won't stretch much or at all the next few shots. I typically get 3 or 4 loads out of brass this way before I anneal and Fl size it again. For a semi always full length resize every time. Also fire formed brass is only good for the gun you shot it in. Don't use the brass in another gun without full length resizing it. Why couldn't I bump the shoulder back if I keep using the reloads in the same AR? |
| It is recommended to full length resize for semi-autos because the action does not have the same camming force a bolt action can offer. Same applies to lever actions. If a round is slightly oversized in a bolt action, it can be forced to chamber. In a semi-auto or lever gun, proper chambering and lockup cannot be guaranteed. |
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I would buy a trimmer first. It is a safety issue. It is nonsense to have "accurate" but unsafe reloads.
I'd start with IMR 4064 and 308 for your bolt rifle. It is easy to test for sufficient resizing of your brass in a bolt rifle - you should be able to close the bolt on the sized case. |
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