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Posted: 10/21/2014 7:29:07 PM EDT
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About to start the 308. I have reloaded mostly pistol, 223, 300 blackout. I want to use in bolt action and AR. So, do I crimp if I plan on using for both? My bolt action is for hunting but I also want to do bench rest shooting. I'm concerned over accuracy if I crimp for the bolt action. How much? Light crimp?
Planning on loading 168 grain SMK amd 175 amax to start with just for bench shooting. Working up rounds to see what shoots best. Do I need to crimp for benchrest shooting? I know I do for cross application AR use. This close to hunting season, I'll probably just go with store bought for that purpose and will test benchrest rounds this weekend. |
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I've loaded at least 6000 .308 match loads for use in M1-A's and never crimped any of them. M1-A's are hard on brass and I never had any issues. You need at least .002" neck tension, try not to go over .003" neck tension or you'll induce run-out.
Using Lake City brass that averages 179 grains deprimed, resized, and trimmed. Winchester large rifle primers trim to 2.000" OAL 2.800" 168 grain SMK's 40.5 grains of IMR-4895 40.0 grains of H4895 41.5 grains of IMR-4064 39.5 grains of IMR-3031 43.0 grains of WW-748 or 40.5 grains of AA-2460 will get you full power loads and excellent accuracy/reliability when using military surplus brass. You can add 1.0 grain more powder when loading Winchester commercial brass. Do not exceed these loads in military brass. You can use RE-15, Varget, N140 and N150 but don't exceed 41.5 grains in Lake City brass. |
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Btw, I've got both varget and RL15 for the 168 SMK and 208 amax. What combination would you go with? Both seem acceptable by the reloading manuals Both of those powders will work. That being said the Varget is a little temp sensitive. I havent used RL15. Personally i prefer 8208XBR. As far as the crimp goes, I would put a light taper crimp on all your rounds. That way you know that you can use them on both rifle platforms and keep your neck tension consistant. That has a lot to do with accuracy. |
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Quoted: Both of those powders will work. That being said the Varget is a little temp sensitive. I havent used RL15. Personally i prefer 8208XBR. As far as the crimp goes, I would put a light taper crimp on all your rounds. That way you know that you can use them on both rifle platforms and keep your neck tension consistant. That has a lot to do with accuracy. Quoted: Quoted: Btw, I've got both varget and RL15 for the 168 SMK and 208 amax. What combination would you go with? Both seem acceptable by the reloading manuals Both of those powders will work. That being said the Varget is a little temp sensitive. I havent used RL15. Personally i prefer 8208XBR. As far as the crimp goes, I would put a light taper crimp on all your rounds. That way you know that you can use them on both rifle platforms and keep your neck tension consistant. That has a lot to do with accuracy. I have found Varget along with all of the other hodgdon extreme line to be very temperature stable.
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Yes. That was Varget' s main selling point when introduced. "Varget" As in varmint getter. A non temperature sensitive powder for varmint accuracy.
As for crimping, take the first replier's advice and DON'T DO IT. A crimp is a fix. If you find you need to then do it. No mechanically applied thing can ever be as consistent as natural neck tension. If you want consistent ammo from one loading session to the next skip the crimping. BTW: Bench Rest shooters never crimp. Hardly any military type rifle competitive shooters ever crimp either. Including the semi auto rifle shooters. |
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Yes. That was Varget' s main selling point when introduced. "Varget" As in varmint getter. A non temperature sensitive powder for varmint accuracy. As for crimping, take the first replier's advice and DON'T DO IT. A crimp is a fix. If you find you need to then do it. No mechanically applied thing can ever be as consistent as natural neck tension. If you want consistent ammo from one loading session to the next skip the crimping. BTW: Bench Rest shooters never crimp. Hardly any military type rifle competitive shooters ever crimp either. Including the semi auto rifle shooters. Thanks. And for what I'm loading currently I wont. I'll do it for rounds I plan on using on bolt and ar platforms. Those will be specific for whitetail and hogs. Won't be 168 SMK. I'll have to read up on the amax |
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Quoted: Btw, I've got both varget and RL15 for the 168 SMK and 208 amax. What combination would you go with? Both seem acceptable by the reloading manuals Try some 175 grain sierra or some 178 grain hornady boat tail hollowpoints if you get the chance to do so. For hunting, I use 180 grain hornady sst's with 43.5 grains of reloader 15 in my .308 model 700. |
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Try some 175 grain sierra or some 178 grain hornady boat tail hollowpoints if you get the chance to do so. For hunting, I use 180 grain hornady sst's with 43.5 grains of reloader 15 in my .308 model 700. Quoted:
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Btw, I've got both varget and RL15 for the 168 SMK and 208 amax. What combination would you go with? Both seem acceptable by the reloading manuals Try some 175 grain sierra or some 178 grain hornady boat tail hollowpoints if you get the chance to do so. For hunting, I use 180 grain hornady sst's with 43.5 grains of reloader 15 in my .308 model 700. Thanks. I was wondering where to go for hunting. I've got some Remington core lokt I need to use up first. Maybe I'll see some hogs this weekend. Whitetail in November |
| I have been using W760 for the 168 Sierra match kings and so far have been real happy with the results. I am also using IMR4320 for the 165 Sierra's that I use for hunting. However there are several good powder for the 308, one just needs to play around a little. |
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would you guys work your loads up at 50 or 100 yards? 200 yards for me, that's about as far as I like to shoot. That leaves me around 3.0" to 3.5" high at 100 depending on the bullet weight and velocity. Sierra 150, 165 and 180 grain Game Kings are very accurate from my rifles. They shoot as well as Match Kings most of the time. Remington Core-Lock bullets do not shoot well for me. |
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200 yards for me, that's about as far as I like to shoot. That leaves me around 3.0" to 3.5" high at 100 depending on the bullet weight and velocity. Sierra 150, 165 and 180 grain Game Kings are very accurate from my rifles. They shoot as well as Match Kings most of the time. Remington Core-Lock bullets do not shoot well for me. Quoted:
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would you guys work your loads up at 50 or 100 yards? 200 yards for me, that's about as far as I like to shoot. That leaves me around 3.0" to 3.5" high at 100 depending on the bullet weight and velocity. Sierra 150, 165 and 180 grain Game Kings are very accurate from my rifles. They shoot as well as Match Kings most of the time. Remington Core-Lock bullets do not shoot well for me. I have no clue as to why the core-lokt is shooting well for me. No clue. but they group pretty darn well. 
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This is just my personal opinion,
To really see the advantage and accuracy potential of a bolt action you will want to neck size your once fired brass, this will allow for longer brass life and consistency. The problem is this brass will only work for that rifle. If you plan on Bench rest you will also find that your bolt will like a certain load/ bullet seat depth that may or may not work with an AR ( my R700 has a massive jump to the lands so my rounds are not mag length) Also why do you need to crimp for your ar? The reason I ask is your neck tension alone should prevent setback. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Hornady and Federal Match ammo is not crimped. For accurate loads you want to make sure that everything is as consistent as possible, adding the variable of crimping adds one more possibility for inconsistency thus effecting accuracy. |
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This is just my personal opinion, To really see the advantage and accuracy potential of a bolt action you will want to neck size your once fired brass, this will allow for longer brass life and consistency. The problem is this brass will only work for that rifle. If you plan on Bench rest you will also find that your bolt will like a certain load/ bullet seat depth that may or may not work with an AR ( my R700 has a massive jump to the lands so my rounds are not mag length) Also why do you need to crimp for your ar? The reason I ask is your neck tension alone should prevent setback. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Hornady and Federal Match ammo is not crimped. For accurate loads you want to make sure that everything is as consistent as possible, adding the variable of crimping adds one more possibility for inconsistency thus effecting accuracy. Loads I plan to use for benchrest won't have a crimp. I do plan on making some hunting loads just for hogs that I want to use on both rifles. This rifle I'm using is a Tikka CTR. Not an expensive benchrest rifle. I'm having one made for that. It's more of a rifle I can practice with, get technique down. Play around with my loading. I would assume you want a taper crimp for AR to prevent setback. Maybe some don't. |
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I have no clue as to why the core-lokt is shooting well for me. No clue. but they group pretty darn well. http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii127/freedell/4154C1EB-F73D-4774-8797-15BCD63C2BF6_zpslzxo5oii.jpg Quoted:
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would you guys work your loads up at 50 or 100 yards? 200 yards for me, that's about as far as I like to shoot. That leaves me around 3.0" to 3.5" high at 100 depending on the bullet weight and velocity. Sierra 150, 165 and 180 grain Game Kings are very accurate from my rifles. They shoot as well as Match Kings most of the time. Remington Core-Lock bullets do not shoot well for me. I have no clue as to why the core-lokt is shooting well for me. No clue. but they group pretty darn well. http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii127/freedell/4154C1EB-F73D-4774-8797-15BCD63C2BF6_zpslzxo5oii.jpg I've never loaded Core-Lock ammo, I've always purchased it new. I would be perfectly happy with your results. |
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Loads I plan to use for benchrest won't have a crimp. I do plan on making some hunting loads just for hogs that I want to use on both rifles. This rifle I'm using is a Tikka CTR. Not an expensive benchrest rifle. I'm having one made for that. It's more of a rifle I can practice with, get technique down. Play around with my loading. I would assume you want a taper crimp for AR to prevent setback. Maybe some don't. Quoted:
Quoted:
This is just my personal opinion, To really see the advantage and accuracy potential of a bolt action you will want to neck size your once fired brass, this will allow for longer brass life and consistency. The problem is this brass will only work for that rifle. If you plan on Bench rest you will also find that your bolt will like a certain load/ bullet seat depth that may or may not work with an AR ( my R700 has a massive jump to the lands so my rounds are not mag length) Also why do you need to crimp for your ar? The reason I ask is your neck tension alone should prevent setback. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Hornady and Federal Match ammo is not crimped. For accurate loads you want to make sure that everything is as consistent as possible, adding the variable of crimping adds one more possibility for inconsistency thus effecting accuracy. Loads I plan to use for benchrest won't have a crimp. I do plan on making some hunting loads just for hogs that I want to use on both rifles. This rifle I'm using is a Tikka CTR. Not an expensive benchrest rifle. I'm having one made for that. It's more of a rifle I can practice with, get technique down. Play around with my loading. I would assume you want a taper crimp for AR to prevent setback. Maybe some don't. Nothing wrong with the Tikka, many of the guys I shoot long rang with use run of the mill Remington 700, I use a Remington 700 sps varmint( factory barrel with some modifications). If you want to practice being precise you need precise ammo, that way you know that you who is throwing those shot's. If you plan on using the A max's I would load using Varget (tons of load data for it and those bullets) My gun loves both of those pills under 44 Gr of it (lucky me). Weirdly the 168 is more accurate at 100 yards than the 178 amax, but farther than that the 178 shines. |
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I him hummed around last night trying to find the right blend of RL15 and 178 amax and said screw it and went with Varget. There was lots of data out there for Varget but not so much for RL15. At least I didn't like the max load speed Hornady manual was giving for that amount of powder. I've seen where many people are putting in greater loads than what Hornady manual suggests. I'll get there but first want to stay safe and just do what they recommend first..
I loaded to 2.81 OAL. worked backwards from 43.2 which is the max load for varget. So I loaded 5 each of 43.2, 43, 42.8, 42.6, 42.4 Noticed that the load was tight. Like a compressed load. Not sure what to think. I plan on starting at the 42.4 load and chrono that load to see what speed I get and observe for signs of over pressure. Someone said RL15 meters better than varget. Maybe. They both look the same to me. Short extruded. I use an RCBS chargemaster anyway, so it's of no consequence. |
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This is just my personal opinion, To really see the advantage and accuracy potential of a bolt action you will want to neck size your once fired brass, this will allow for longer brass life and consistency. The problem is this brass will only work for that rifle. If you plan on Bench rest you will also find that your bolt will like a certain load/ bullet seat depth that may or may not work with an AR ( my R700 has a massive jump to the lands so my rounds are not mag length) Also why do you need to crimp for your ar? The reason I ask is your neck tension alone should prevent setback. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Hornady and Federal Match ammo is not crimped. For accurate loads you want to make sure that everything is as consistent as possible, adding the variable of crimping adds one more possibility for inconsistency thus effecting accuracy. Not just opinion but solid fact. The OP stated that he wanted to load ammo that he would use in BOTH platforms (AR & BA) that is why I and probably others did not bring this up. Handloader magazine did a fairly extensive test a few years ago with the .308 Win. They did not go beyond neck only sizing in the bag of accuracy tricks but their tests boldly showed that neck only sizing is far superior to full length sizing for accuracy. If I was going to get serious, again, about bolt gun accuracy besides all the little case prep and head stamp matching things and without going into neck turning I would: Neck size only. Correct loaded ammo run-out. Seat my bullets no more than .010" off the lands. Those 3 things will get you some impressive accuracy. I never corrected ammo run-out and still got good sub moa ammo but have read enough information to believe in it. They say if a bullet enters the rifling not perfectly centered it will stay that way. Seems logical to me. |
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I'm in the early stages of learning and neck sizing is on my list. Once I get into fine tuning things for bench rest application, I'll look at some dies to accomplish this. I'm not too concerned on the 308. Maybe it has its place. With the win mag, I have coming, I'll work on this.
The Tikka CRT I picked up is for suppressed shooting and hunting application and also bench rest shooting. Different bullets, different application. I asked the question so I could also use in the application of hunting with my AR. I bought the Tikka because it's something lite enough to carry around. I am interested in neck sizing. At this point, I'm not sure how to do this to match my bolt action rifle. I understand the concept, but have no practical experience and don't know where to begin. Still have reading to do. Any recommendations on neck sizing dies? I've been eyeing this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/814070/forster-precision-plus-bushing-bump-neck-sizer-die-with-3-bushings-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding Or, use a FL die backed off just to size the neck. Some say that's better to maintain the neck concentric |
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I'm in the early stages of learning and neck sizing is on my list. Once I get into fine tuning things for bench rest application, I'll look at some dies to accomplish this. I'm not too concerned on the 308. Maybe it has its place. With the win mag, I have coming, I'll work on this. The Tikka CRT I picked up is for suppressed shooting and hunting application and also bench rest shooting. Different bullets, different application. I asked the question so I could also use in the application of hunting with my AR. I bought the Tikka because it's something lite enough to carry around. I am interested in neck sizing. At this point, I'm not sure how to do this to match my bolt action rifle. I understand the concept, but have no practical experience and don't know where to begin. Still have reading to do. Any recommendations on neck sizing dies? I've been eyeing this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/814070/forster-precision-plus-bushing-bump-neck-sizer-die-with-3-bushings-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding Or, use a FL die backed off just to size the neck. Some say that's better to maintain the neck concentric Forster is always a good choice, I personal use the lee collet die. Its fast, you don't have to use lube, simple, and so far I have had great results. It does not however bump the shoulder so I get about 4 reloads before the case gets too tight and I start to see ejector swipe marks on the brass. I then re anneal/resize using a full length sizer and start the process over again. |
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