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Posted: 4/20/2014 5:10:32 AM EDT
| Do any of you folks feel the need to use small base sizing dies in your AR? Pro's or cons? Thanks |
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Do any of you folks feel the need to use small base sizing dies in your AR? Pro's or cons? Thanks No. I load for several 223/5.56 ARs, a AR Grendel, Ruger Mini-30, 3 Browning BARs and an old Rem 742. Not one of these Semi-Auto matic rifles require the use of a Small Base die. IMO, those that find satisfaction using the SB die didn't give the standard die the proper set-up it needed to work properly. Kinda like a solution to a non-existent problem. Here is what Sierra has to say about it. Despite the oft-repeated advice that autoloaders, pumpguns and lever-actions require small base dies, the Service Rifles may be the exception that proves the rule. While it’s true that all of these action types lack the powerful camming forces of a bolt-action, the more generous chamber dimensions common to most Service Rifles are normally compatible with standard dies. Please understand that this is a general statement, and that there are exceptions to this. The point is, you don’t need to automatically go to a small base die set. Most of the standard reloading dies produced by reputable firms, such as RCBS, will resize fired brass properly to work in these rifles. link. http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm |
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I load for 5 different 223. 2 RRA rifles I have don't always chamber fully unless the case was SB sized. My bolt guns and Mini-14 I only need to neck size. My understanding from both RRA, talking with other reloaders, a gunsmith, and experience is that some guns, especially if they happen to have the chamber cut with a worn die is that they are on the small side of spec, but still in spec.
I just reload separate batches for those guns. I don't think its a big deal, no extra steps just need to have two sets of dies. |
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I load for 5 different 223. 2 RRA rifles I have don't always chamber fully unless the case was SB sized. My bolt guns and Mini-14 I only need to neck size. My understanding from both RRA, talking with other reloaders, a gunsmith, and experience is that some guns, especially if they happen to have the chamber cut with a worn die is that they are on the small side of spec, but still in spec. I just reload separate batches for those guns. I don't think its a big deal, no extra steps just need to have two sets of dies. This is why I just went with SB dies to begin with because I pick up friends once fired brass and don't want ANY problems with other ARs I may accuire in the future. If I get a couple fewer loadings with the brass big deal, the number of times reloading brass is like a penis measuring contest most times. YMMV |
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Fact #1: Many AR's function fine reloaded with properly adjusted regular dies.
Fact #2: Some AR's don't, regular dies properly adjusted or not; Fact #3: If you own one that doesn't, you can have the chamber reworked to feed anything even Wolf. Or you can buy a Small-base sizer and skip the Wolf Ammo. Fact #4: Small-based sizers are cheaper than reworking a chamber unless you can get the factory to do it for free.....doubtful, but if they will it will probably take a long time. Fact #5: You can hone a few thousandths off the top of your case holder and make a regular die squeeze the base further.....dumb idea....it also bumps the already over-bumped shoulder even more.....why would you want to bump your shoulders another .004" to squeeze the base .001 or 002"? Fact: #6: Small-based sizers squeeze the area near the base an extra .001" sometimes .002". That isn't much for extremely reliable ammo. Factory new ammo is smaller, base-wise, still. Fact #7: You still have to learn to adjust the dies right, using a gauge or mic, to bump the shoulders enough to chamber. Observation: If you are sure you are reloading for one gun and regular dies work....go for it. If you might someday want to use your hoard ammo years to come in who knows what gun, then small-based dies provide a reliability cushion. Nothing's worse than old reloads that won't chamber in what you now have. Contrary to regurgitated myth in these parts.....if your AR doesn't chamber with regularly sized reloads....you are not automatically an idiot who can't adjust a sizer die. Another regurgitated myth: Small base dies overwork your brass....a .001" squeeze near the base is negligible. Worry more about over bumping shoulders so you force a vertical stretch with each shot that thins the base. Most often beginners "cam-over" their sizers dutifully as per RCBS instructions, and doing so, in some cases, shoulders are bumped more than needed for an AR. Over-bumped shoulders chamber easier not harder. For such ammo (cammed-over in the press) that still won't chamber, look elsewhere. Paint magic marker around a case....attempt a chamber....and see where the marker is scraped off, usually 1/2" or so from the base.....that's when you need a S.B. die, and hopefully you don't have 5000 rounds of ammo for which you have to find a gun that will shoot it, in an emergency. 
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| I've loaded for several AR's with different chamber types and have not seen any need for small based dies. Get regular sizing dies and if you are a very rare AR owner that has to have small based dies then later buy just the small based sizer alone or send your out of spec rifle back to the manufacturer for repair. Evidently there are some small chambers out there? You won't need it though. I do recommend a case gauge and I like both the RCBS Precision Mic and also Hornady's Headspace gauge set. Most important to measure the amount that your die pushes the shoulder back. Small based dies actually size the cases closer to factory sized cases but they actually overwork brass needlessly if your rifle don't need one. |
| If your chamber is so tight that you have to resize to SAAMI minimum specs to get it to function reliably, small base dies can be helpful for that. I have one such chamber on one of my rifles (a 308 build with match-grade barrel and bolt) - it is only a couple thousandths larger than the SAAMI minimum, and won't function unless the brass is set right at the minimum spec. The vast majority of rifles, however, can function just fine with cases well above the minimum. Properly set-up normal dies should work for your rifle 99% of the time. I use a standard set of Lee dies for my 223 loads, and they work just fine across multiple rifles. |
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I got into reloading 223 at the end of 2012 (before the crazy crap). I had backordered RCBS x-die.... Months go by, never came. 2013 starts and the world goes nuts. Finally the small base die came in stock so I jumped on them.
I have been very happy with my purchase. I reload for a bunch of uppers at any one time. I don't want to have to worry about rounds not chambering. Piece of mind....Do I need the small base die? Who knows. I do know that it works for me and not going to stress if my brass doesn't last as many reloads. I can "pick up" more... |
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I've built/owned 7 or 8 AR15's in the last 10 years or so. Only one of the bunch had a "tight" chamber. Initially I had problems with my reloads from the Lee or Pacific (Hornady) dies. My RCBS X dies worked fine for reloads for that rifle. That was a rifle/bolt issue, not a die issue.
I do not use small base dies for any caliber. One of my AR15's and my M1A have "match" barrels on them and they don't need small base dies, but different barrels will have slightly different dimensions. |
| Everyone seems to be focused on if you have a tight or loose chamber. It was my understanding that SBDs were to help out with dirty chambers. Every DI ar15 has its limit before needing to be cleaned (most non-internet DI ar15s is between 250 and 500 rounds), and SBDs give you more rounds you can fire before have to clean your chamber. Could be wrong. |
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I only use small base dies. Most will shoot regular sized brass, but all will shoot sb sized brass. No reason not to Actually, SB dies can have a negative effect on brass life. Especially if you're re-using your brass in the same rifle, it's only generally necessary to set the shoulder back a couple of thousandths, whereas SB dies will set back to the minimum size, often working the brass much harder than it needs to be worked. |
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Fact #5: You can hone a few thousandths off the top of your case holder and make a regular die squeeze the base further.....dumb idea....it also bumps the already over-bumped shoulder even more.....why would you want to bump your shoulders another .004" to squeeze the base .001 or 002"? Fact: #6: Small-based sizers squeeze the area near the base an extra .001" sometimes .002". That isn't much for extremely reliable ammo. Factory new ammo is smaller, base-wise, still. Contrary to regurgitated myth in these parts.....if your AR doesn't chamber with regularly sized reloads....you are not automatically an idiot who can't adjust a sizer die. Another regurgitated myth: Small base dies overwork your brass....a .001" squeeze near the base is negligible. Worry more about over bumping shoulders so you force a vertical stretch with each shot that thins the base. Most often beginners "cam-over" their sizers dutifully as per RCBS instructions, and doing so, in some cases, shoulders are bumped more than needed for an AR. Over-bumped shoulders chamber easier not harder. For such ammo (cammed-over in the press) that still won't chamber, look elsewhere. Paint magic marker around a case....attempt a chamber....and see where the marker is scraped off, usually 1/2" or so from the base.....that's when you need a S.B. die, and hopefully you don't have 5000 rounds of ammo for which you have to find a gun that will shoot it, in an emergency.
You are forgetting that SB dies are designed to Bump the Shoulder back more than Standard FL dies, doing exactly what you are warning against. |
| Small based dies only size the body of the case more, the shoulder set-back is the same with full-length or small based. At least that is what they are supposed to do with headspace being the same with both sizing dies. You still need to measure and adjust your sizing die with either sizer to push the shoulder back a measured amount. |
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Small based dies only size the body of the case more, the shoulder set-back is the same with full-length or small based. At least that is what they are supposed to do with headspace being the same with both sizing dies. You still need to measure and adjust your sizing die with either sizer to push the shoulder back a measured amount. Exactly.....mine don't push the shoulder back any more than my regular sizers. I may forget a lot of stuff these days....but that isn't one of them. Lets say "camming-over" your regular sizer pushes the shoulder back more than you want. Perhaps in your Wilson gage, the case is below upper flush, but still not deeper than the lower gage. That may mean its in "spec" still, but the neck is pushed back more than the target .002"...maybe twice that or more. The distance between the upper and lower index on the Wilson gage is like .010".....that's a lot of "in spec." So you think, "I'll just back off the die just a smidgen to make the head flush with the top of the Wilson gage." Do that and your base is wider than before....maybe enough to negatively affect a smooth easy chamber in your "in-spec" gun. (pretty sure enough to cause problems in some other gun you don't yet own.) Now if you were using a small-based die, backing out like that will probably leave you with a base similar to that from your regular sizer when it's "cammed-over". Folks, .001" isn't a whole lot, but it gives you working room to get your shoulder a minimum work without having your fat unsized base causing problems. Don't believe what you hear (especially by famous writers in a gun mag...where most gun myths start) unless you test it out yourself. |
| I have reloaded and fired at least 25,000 rounds for my .223s in the past 20 years. Always used standard full length sizing die. Never small base....don't even own a set. NEVER had an ejection problem. IMHO case life is increasd significantly using standard dies and not work-hardening the body of the case. |
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Small based dies only size the body of the case more, the shoulder set-back is the same with full-length or small based. At least that is what they are supposed to do with headspace being the same with both sizing dies. You still need to measure and adjust your sizing die with either sizer to push the shoulder back a measured amount. Ah No. From RCBS. Q. I see a Small Base Die Set listed for my caliber. Do I need these or should I buy a Full Length Die Set or Neck Die Set? How does each set differ? A. The Small Base Die set is intended for use for ammunition to be used in auto, semi-auto, and lever action rifles so that the loaded round chambers and extracts easily. The Small Base Sizer Die sizes the case from the shoulder to the head of the case a couple of thousandths smaller than a Full Length Sizer Die. In certain calibers it also sets the shoulder of the case back a thousandth or two more than the Full Length Sizer Die. http://www.rcbs.com/guide/#faq From Midways 223 SB Die description. Notes: Small base sizer dies are usually required for reloading ammunition to be used in automatic, semi-automatic, pump, slide and some lever-action rifles. These dies size the case somewhat smaller in diamter and also set the shoulder back slightly more than a Full-Length sizer die to ensure poper functioning in the actions of these rifles. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/205445/rcbs-small-base-sizer-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding |
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I have reloaded and fired at least 25,000 rounds for my .223s in the past 20 years. Always used standard full length sizing die. Never small base....don't even own a set. NEVER had an ejection problem. IMHO case life is increasd significantly using standard dies and not work-hardening the body of the case. I have not loaded that much... maybe 2-3k in last year. But if you have never used SB die, then how can you be so certain about case life? "Significantly"? Really? |
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In certain calibers it also sets the shoulder of the case back a thousandth or two more than the Full Length Sizer Die. I only have them in .223 and .308. So I guess I don't have one of those "certain" calibers. But even if my dies are the only ones in the country that doesn't bump more....so what....amount of shoulder bump is determined by how deep the die is screwed in.....small-based or reg-based. If people are so concerned about making their brass last forever, then don't shoot gas guns at all......AR extractors damage brass way worse than squeezing a thousandth near the base. (RCBS's spec of .002" smaller bases isn't realistic if you back the die off for less bump.......001" is all I ever see.....but it's enough). I say use & recommend which ever you like. Just please allow me the same. If I load a couple of thousand rounds, I want it to work flawless in any gun that I might acquire, not just the ones I have now. IMO, the closer to factory specs the better for that. Worried about brass longevity? Modify your extractor, and bump no more than needed, and learn to anneal necks and shoulders. Small-base dies are unfairly bashed, and loudest by those who have NEVER used them (or think they haven't). What's really funny is that ALL of Dillon bottleneck sizers are small-based dies. Ask them! They must be stupid? And I wonder how many S.B. bashers use those? http://www.dillonprecision.com/Dillon_223_rem_sizing_die-98-14-311.htm So.......how many of you use Dillon rifle sizers? |
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I only have them in .223 and .308. So I guess I don't have one of those "certain" calibers. Quoted:
In certain calibers it also sets the shoulder of the case back a thousandth or two more than the Full Length Sizer Die. I only have them in .223 and .308. So I guess I don't have one of those "certain" calibers. Sure ya do. Go to the Midway Link posted above. But even if my dies are the only ones in the country that doesn't bump more....so what....amount of shoulder bump is determined by how deep the die is screwed in.. Correct, and the more you back the die out of the press to "Not" bump the shoulder back the more unsized case you leave at the base. Kinda defeats the purpose of the SB die to back it out leaving a portion of the base unsized, docha think? |
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Correct, and the more you back the die out of the press to "Not" bump the shoulder back the more unsized case you leave at the base. Kinda defeats the purpose of the SB die to back it out leaving a portion of the base unsized, docha think? No different than backing out a regular die.....you are sizing the base less yes, unsized, no. The base we are sizing is above the extractor groove well inside the die either way. I'm referring to .002" smaller than regular dies when cammed-over. When screwing either die out for less bump, both dies size the bases less than before, .001" less than cammed in my case, but compared to the S.B. die, the regular die will still size the base .002" bigger.......even more chance for feeding problems in some guns. Hope that clarified what I meant. Last post here for me. |
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What? I'm referring to .002" smaller than regular dies when cammed-over. When screwing either die out for less bump, both dies size the bases less than before, .001" less than cammed in my case, but compared to the S.B. die, the regular die will still size the base .002" bigger.......even more chance for feeding problems in some guns. If .001-.002 won't make a difference, then why the need for a die that sizes the case down .001? Either .001 is important or it is not. First you said your SB dies do not bump the shoulder back more than a Standard FL die, then you said so what if it does. Do you even know what you have and what your dies are doing? |
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This is why I just went with SB dies to begin with because I pick up friends once fired brass and don't want ANY problems with other ARs I may accuire in the future. If I get a couple fewer loadings with the brass big deal, the number of times reloading brass is like a penis measuring contest most times. YMMV Quoted:
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I load for 5 different 223. 2 RRA rifles I have don't always chamber fully unless the case was SB sized. My bolt guns and Mini-14 I only need to neck size. My understanding from both RRA, talking with other reloaders, a gunsmith, and experience is that some guns, especially if they happen to have the chamber cut with a worn die is that they are on the small side of spec, but still in spec. I just reload separate batches for those guns. I don't think its a big deal, no extra steps just need to have two sets of dies. This is why I just went with SB dies to begin with because I pick up friends once fired brass and don't want ANY problems with other ARs I may accuire in the future. If I get a couple fewer loadings with the brass big deal, the number of times reloading brass is like a penis measuring contest most times. YMMV ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This. It is easy to develop a paranoia about SB dies on this forum. I did some research on .308 and .223 cases while back. You cannot size a case small enough, even using small base dies, to make a case as small as Federal Gold Metal Match cases on their ammo straight out of the factory box. So don't worry about it. I do agree that, if you want to make more custom fit precision ammo for your target rifle, or extend the reusable life of those precious $1/each cases-- "normal" sizing dies, or just neck sizing is the way to go. |
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When you retire cases for EOL, where are they failing? Most of my case discards tend to be for neck splits. Do cases sized in a SBD fail in some other location first? I have never retired cases for EOL because I have so many .223 and .308 cases in play and trips to the range only burn 100 or less. Handloader Magazine Dec. 2008 #257 Gary Sciuchetti reported results of 10 different brand of .308 cases, full length sized after every shot, ran until case head separation was complete in a bolt action rifle. Neck splits were not considered EOL in this test, apparently. Nosler & LC cases went 10 shots. NORMA lasted 23 shots. The lowly Remington went 19 shots. Case head separation in a bolt gun is not a KaBoom event. |
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