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Posted: 12/29/2013 2:12:40 PM EDT
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I started reloading .398 for my new savage 10 bolt gun. I have been reloading hornady vmax 178g and midway 180g bt. I looked at the coal and it says 2.800 for both, but when I do I almost can't close the bolt it's so tight so I bumped the coal down to 2.760-2.735 with minimum charge between 39g to 40 depending on the powder. With that length cause and safety issues. And what would you reccommend doing about the tight action. The gun is brand new never fired
Everyone please read through the entire thread before adding new comments that have already been covered. This thread is sufficiently confusing as is, and I don't want to see it deteriorate even more. What I would like to see is one additional post that starts with the facts that we know, and then walks through the troubleshooting process step by step. AeroE |
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The problem is probably not the COAL, it's the case length from the head to the shoulder.
Try a tiny bit of lube inside the case neck when sizing so the shoulder is not pulled out by the expander ball when it is withdrawn. That is the number one cause of the problem you describe. |
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Quoted:
So with that coal I am using are the rounds safe to shoot I would take your kinetic bullet puller tap each round a few times to get the bullet out over the 2.800" you wanted and then reseat to 2.800". ......If I am giving advice on the internet. With my 185gr .308 load going from 2.800 to 2.735 would raise chamber pressure 4000psi, according to QuickLoad, but too many variables to say what your load would do . |
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Quoted:
The problem is probably not the COAL, it's the case length from the head to the shoulder. Try a tiny bit of lube inside the case neck when sizing so the shoulder is not pulled out by the expander ball when it is withdrawn. That is the number one cause of the problem you describe. This seems like your issue, shoulders not set right. If your sure your die is set up correctly and you lubed properly, try double stroking on your resizing die. Up into the resizing die, down, rotate about a third and back up into it. Test a few out by reseting a bullet into them at your original length, no primer or powder. |
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If I used the puller would it cause me to have to crimp or resize the case or just pull it to say 2.8900 and then seat it to 2.800 As long as you have not crimped these rounds you can bump them out some and reseat to desired length. I have done this many times, no resize needed. Now if you need to resize to get the rounds cases to chamber properly then you might as well completely pull the bullets then resize. I would not recommend firing a round that is headspaced so tight you can hardly close the bolt. Also you say this gun is new, have you cleaned the barrel and chamber, it may have debris in it causing problems, might want to check that first. |
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I guess my question is what's the difference gonna be in the rounds that get set back to 2.800 rather than the ones at 2.735
and if I'm gonna use a puller and bump the rounds back to 2.800 it's still going to be just as tight of a chambering as when u tried it before, without a dab of lube which I feel is not going to change anything. All of the brass is trimmed and the oal case length is to spec. |
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All the brass is reprocessed by a manufacturer so it's all at factory specs not sure if that makes a difference or not Did you measure the brass? Check your crimps, too. You could be bulging the case necks with too much crimp. After pulling bullets, I always resize the necks to restore neck tension. There's no need to decap the cases, remove the expander ball and stem from the sizer die. |
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I guess my question is what's the difference gonna be in the rounds that get set back to 2.800 rather than the ones at 2.735 and if I'm gonna use a puller and bump the rounds back to 2.800 it's still going to be just as tight of a chambering as when u tried it before, without a dab of lube which I feel is not going to change anything. All of the brass is trimmed and the oal case length is to spec. At 2.735 the rounds may have higher than pressure so they may be unsafe to fire, so you shouldn't use them even if they chamber. So that is one problem with the rounds now. Point is don't use them in another gun that they may happen to chamber in until you get the length back to where it should be, Maybe you have a body die and are able to resize them without disassembling them, don't use them until you get the length back. Number two, if the cases are too long in the shoulder and the bolt will barely close on them you shouldn't force them, and you should just pull the bullets and powder, resize the case, make sure it chambers, then reload. The lube on the inside of the neck is for when you are size the brass to reduce friction between the expander and the ID of the neck so it doesn't get pulled out which may be the cause of you problems. |
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I did not crimp any of them.
I ran a cleaning rod through the gun a few times and reloaded 2 rounds at 2.800 and they seemed to chamber with no pressure what so ever. Not sure if that did the trick or what. So I guess now it's time to bump the bullets back to 2.800, I have like 200 reloaded at 2.735 so it's gonna take a while. I guess the question now is do I pull it completely and resize the case or bump it back .065 and seat it again |
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I would not shoot them. Pull the bullet and start over edit: re-seat, Check the sizing die also.
I load 178gr Amax a little longer COAL than book, with my shoulder bumped back just slightly from spec, .001 or so. The Amax bullet is much longer than the SMKs, but the ogive should be very close. When compared with an Hornady Lock n Load ogive comparator they are almost identical to Federal GMM with 175gr SMKs. If you set the 178 Amax to 2.800 COAL you are already starting 20-40 thousandths deeper than the SMKs. Thus will have more pressure. I would not shoot the loads you have with that short COAL, A hornady LnL head space comparator will tell you if the shoulders are within spec. A hornady LnL OAL gage will tell you how deep the chamber throat is. Sorry for the Hornady commercial, but I like these gages. I am fairly new to reloading and the gages, help me wrap my head around these things. $100 worth of gages will tell you exactly what you need to know. |
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I made up a few loads at 2.800 same specs on everything as far as I can tell. Brass is at 2.000-2.005
Some rounds load smooth as can be some still feel like they are tight. What could be the problem now, all brass is from the same batch and being loaded exactly the same |
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You could find one round that is especially hard to chamber, pull the bullet dump powder and rechamber, if it's still hard to chamber the bullet seating depth may not be the only problem if it is at all.
ETA after your reply, if you have the Hornady Headspace tool and measure the ones that chamber easy vs. Ones that won't, I'm sure you have different numbers. Maybe a tad more turn on the sizing die and they all chamber easy. |
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I made up a few loads at 2.800 same specs on everything as far as I can tell. Brass is at 2.000-2.005 Some rounds load smooth as can be some still feel like they are tight. What could be the problem now, all brass is from the same batch and being loaded exactly the same The overall length of brass doesn't control cartridge headspace (but don't ignore that dimension, it's important, too, just for other reasons of safety). A case that is too tight in the chamber is too long to fit in the space where the case shoulder contacts the chamber at the front, and the case head contacts the bolt face at the rear. For .308 Win, that figure is 1.634 inches measured from the case head to a 0.400 inch diameter datum on the shoulder. If that dimension is too long, then the bolt crushes the case in order to go into battery. A case gage of some sort is required to make this measurement, either a fixed drop in gage as made by Wilson or Dillon, or an adjustable gage that attaches to a caliper that allows exact control of the dimension chosen to set the shoulder back. Example of the second type: http://www.hornady.com/store/Headspace-Gauge-Kits/ You've already discovered that you can simply bump bullets that are seated too deep without removing them completely. That's a good approach but sometimes the bullets don't cooperate and come out completely. I have no idea about how you are using your sizer die. The only adjustment available after running the die down to contact the shell holder is for the depriming stem. If the depriming stem is run down too far, it will hit the end of the case inside and prevent complete full length sizing. There is no find adjustment. |
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what kind of brass are you using?
I had this same problem with some Lake City once fired brass. I had to actually grind my shell holder a bit to get the die to size down far enough on the case. (lee full length) with a hand press, so not a whole lot of leverage. After that no more issues for me. |
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"I am using a lee die, the die is down as far as it can go and the adjustment knob is being used to fine tune the measurements. Could this be causing a problem"
Is this your seater die????? sounds like it! - The sizing die has no adjustment, and you also stated that the brass was already sized. If you have the seater die body adjusted as far down as it can go, and using the adjustment knob to fine tune seating depth, you are probably wrecking the brass by jamming it into the crimp shoulder inside the seater die. This will cause the area under the shoulder, the shoulder itself, the neck, or any combination to buckle. If this is indeed the case you first need to resize the brass. Make SURE your bullets do not drop into your sized brass- DO NOT rely on a crimp to hold the bullet in- neck tension should be sufficient. If bullets drop in, your expander is too big. When you set up the seater die, back the die BODYway out, run a sized case all the way up, then screw the die body back down until you feel it contact the brass/case mouth. Now back the die body up 1 turn, and tighten the locknut. This ensures you are NOT jamming the brass as described above. Now place a bullet into the sized brass, and raise them into the seater die. Seat the bullet, adjusting the seater plug/knob adjustment, to proper OAL. |
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Yes it is my seater die. All the brass is trimmed correctly and the case mouth allows the bullet to sit properly so it seems they are resized perfectly. I will re set my die the way you just stated and see if that makes any difference.
When you said bring it down until it touches, are you saying to do that with just the case raised or with the bullet sitting in the case. Raise till it touches then back it off 1 turn then fine tune with the adjustment knob. I try to mark on the crimp die so I don't get them mixed up with the seater die. What's the easiest way to tell the difference. Also I'm not sure on what brass it is I will have to check. |
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I never had to resize. The brass was reprocessed by a manufacturer This is what I was thinking would come up, but wanted to read the rest of the thread before posting. You've got brass that may be 'processed,' but not to spec, at least in some cases. Please - get a case gage, either a Dillon or LE Wilson. You might also consider the Hornady comparator gauge. Use the gage to set up your re-sizing die. Then you can either check your 'processed' brass through the case gage or comparator. or just assume you need to size it all, and do so. I'd check every already loaded round at this point via gage or comparator. |
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This is what I was thinking would come up, but wanted to read the rest of the thread before posting. You've got brass that may be 'processed,' but not to spec, at least in some cases. Please - get a case gage, either a Dillon or LE Wilson. You might also consider the Hornady comparator gauge. Use the gage to set up your re-sizing die. Then you can either check your 'processed' brass through the case gage or comparator. or just assume you need to size it all, and do so. I'd check every already loaded round at this point via gage or comparator. Quoted:
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I never had to resize. The brass was reprocessed by a manufacturer This is what I was thinking would come up, but wanted to read the rest of the thread before posting. You've got brass that may be 'processed,' but not to spec, at least in some cases. Please - get a case gage, either a Dillon or LE Wilson. You might also consider the Hornady comparator gauge. Use the gage to set up your re-sizing die. Then you can either check your 'processed' brass through the case gage or comparator. or just assume you need to size it all, and do so. I'd check every already loaded round at this point via gage or comparator. I was going to suggest an RCBS Precision Mike instead of the pattern gages or the Hornady (Stoney Point) rig. The .308 Precision Mike will be good for measuring "case head space" for the entire family of .308 parrent calibers. Then, if you can find some comm'l ammo (like FGMM .308, any weight bullet) shoot a couple of those in the rifle. Use the comm'l fire formed cases to establish tight chamber fit, then subtract about .003 from the Precision Mike measurement of the fired case and reset your SIZER die to give the same numbers for your reload cases. IIRC the Precision Mike will allow you to measure finished cartridges with the bullets still inserted. I think you will find, as usual, Aero E is correct. 99% of the time, stiff bolts are caused by insufficient sizing reduction in the "case head space". |
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Which dies are you using, and is there a separate seater and crimp die in the set? Lee has several combinations. There is a crimp shoulder in many seater dies even if you have a set with a separate crimp die.
You need to first verify whether empty, sized, and trimmed cases chamber with no problem. Also, a case gauge is one of the most important tools to have- sizing should not be left to guess-work. Run a verified sized and trimmed empty case up into the seater die- there should be no resistance. The ram should be raised fully, then screw the die body in until it touches the crimp shoulder- you will feel it when they contact. Back the die body out 1 or 2 turns then lock the die body in place. Now adjust the seater plug. |
| I have no real advice, but I would like to know who you got the brass from as I recently got some processed brass and would like to know if we got it from the same place. I have checked some pieces but not all. If you don't want that info made public a PM would be good with me. |
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