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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Reloading Carry Ammo (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/24/2013 7:26:57 PM EDT
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A while back, it was recommended to me to always carry factory loaded ammo for personal defense. I forget the person who mentioned that to me, but, I think it was for legal reasons that he said it. So, I'm wondering if anyone else reloads the own personal defense ammo. I'm considering it myself, but wanna see what others think. I know I can get some pretty consistent performance out of the stuff I reload, and I can chrono them to try to match the performance of factory rounds. |
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I do. Imho the no reloads for legal reasons is bs spouted by ignorant people but I could be wrong. By the time I shoot someone there no doubt I mean to kill them no matter who made the ammo. I agree with this... I don't think there's anything wrong with carrying reloads. I don't do it, but I wouldn't hesitate to do so after buying new brass, bullets, primers, etc. I don't think I would go at it with range pickup brass, personally. |
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I carry my handloads. I trust them to fit, feed fire more than I do Factory ammo.
Massad Ayoob has been preaching the evils of carrying handloads for years. With all his preaching, he has yet to find one legal case where handloads were used against and individual involved in a "good" shoot. Funny thing about old Massad, he started preaching this crap just about the time he started endorsing special SD Factory Ammo. Imagine that? |
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NONE of my carry pistols have ever seen a factory load!
S&W M&P .40 & 9mm Sig P226 .40 S&W Wyatt Deep Cover .38 SPL +P I've taken KY, and TN carry classes, and my brother is an instructor, and cop in OH. Never once has any of these individuals ever brought up anything about carrying reloaded ammo. |
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There was one case in which GSR forensic data was flawed becasue of the use of hand loads.
NJ vs Daniel Bias I am not saying you shouldn't use handloads for SD. Just that this is the only case I Have heard of that handloads were an issue in a shooting situation. ETA the artcle where I found the information. It also has a couple of other cases listed. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2129976&postcount=140 |
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I do. Imho the no reloads for legal reasons is bs spouted by ignorant people but I could be wrong. By the time I shoot someone there no doubt I mean to kill them no matter who made the ammo. Not BS, there is good reason to use "Law Enforcement Standards" in a carry gun. This decision could affect you in both a criminal and civil case. In addition to how your ammo choice could be construed in matters of intent, use of force, powder burns can be used forensically to determine the distance between yourself and the target. It is much easier to use commercial ammo then self load due to the differences in precision. I took a use of deadly force course a month ago and this was discussed by an attorney who specialists in these type of cases. |
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Not BS, there is good reason to use "Law Enforcement Standards" in a carry gun. This decision could affect you in both a criminal and civil case. In addition to how your ammo choice could be construed in matters of intent, use of force, powder burns can be used forensically to determine the distance between yourself and the target. It is much easier to use commercial ammo then self load due to the differences in precision. I took a use of deadly force course a month ago and this was discussed by an attorney who specialists in these type of cases. Quoted:
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I do. Imho the no reloads for legal reasons is bs spouted by ignorant people but I could be wrong. By the time I shoot someone there no doubt I mean to kill them no matter who made the ammo. Not BS, there is good reason to use "Law Enforcement Standards" in a carry gun. This decision could affect you in both a criminal and civil case. In addition to how your ammo choice could be construed in matters of intent, use of force, powder burns can be used forensically to determine the distance between yourself and the target. It is much easier to use commercial ammo then self load due to the differences in precision. I took a use of deadly force course a month ago and this was discussed by an attorney who specialists in these type of cases. It's for this reason that I carry the loads used by the local sheriff and PD. The argument against handloads is that some squirrely things happen in court; if you get a "true believer" anti-gun DA, he could argue that you loaded your rounds to cause maximum agony for the poor yute who was going to shoot you with factory rounds. This isn't as unbelievable as it seems; last year some guy was convicted because the DA convinced the jury that he used "unusually high energy bullets" or some such (probably +P rounds). "Fairness" goes out the window; juries are selected for their ignorance of the subject matter, and the victory goes to the lawyer who can convince the jury of his point of view. Just witness how many convictions have been thrown out recently because of new DNA testing methods! How many people spent significant amounts of their lives in jail because they could not afford a good lawyer. **The guy's name was Harold Fish. He used "devastating 10mm hollow point ammunition" to kill a homeless man with mental illness and violence issues. |
| I would think you should be more worried about every thing you have ever said on this gun enthusiast web site (and what every one else has said) instead of your hand loads. You are authorized to stop (not kill) the attacker using deadly force if necessary. If you ammo goes faster or opens up more that means you stopped the threat faster and more reliably. |
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It's for this reason that I carry the loads used by the local sheriff and PD. The argument against handloads is that some squirrely things happen in court; if you get a "true believer" anti-gun DA, he could argue that you loaded your rounds to cause maximum agony for the poor yute who was going to shoot you with factory rounds. This isn't as unbelievable as it seems; last year some guy was convicted because the DA convinced the jury that he used "unusually high energy bullets" or some such (probably +P rounds). "Fairness" goes out the window; juries are selected for their ignorance of the subject matter, and the victory goes to the lawyer who can convince the jury of his point of view. Just witness how many convictions have been thrown out recently because of new DNA testing methods! How many people spent significant amounts of their lives in jail because they could not afford a good lawyer. **The guy's name was Harold Fish. He used "devastating 10mm hollow point ammunition" to kill a homeless man with mental illness and violence issues. Quoted:
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I do. Imho the no reloads for legal reasons is bs spouted by ignorant people but I could be wrong. By the time I shoot someone there no doubt I mean to kill them no matter who made the ammo. Not BS, there is good reason to use "Law Enforcement Standards" in a carry gun. This decision could affect you in both a criminal and civil case. In addition to how your ammo choice could be construed in matters of intent, use of force, powder burns can be used forensically to determine the distance between yourself and the target. It is much easier to use commercial ammo then self load due to the differences in precision. I took a use of deadly force course a month ago and this was discussed by an attorney who specialists in these type of cases. It's for this reason that I carry the loads used by the local sheriff and PD. The argument against handloads is that some squirrely things happen in court; if you get a "true believer" anti-gun DA, he could argue that you loaded your rounds to cause maximum agony for the poor yute who was going to shoot you with factory rounds. This isn't as unbelievable as it seems; last year some guy was convicted because the DA convinced the jury that he used "unusually high energy bullets" or some such (probably +P rounds). "Fairness" goes out the window; juries are selected for their ignorance of the subject matter, and the victory goes to the lawyer who can convince the jury of his point of view. Just witness how many convictions have been thrown out recently because of new DNA testing methods! How many people spent significant amounts of their lives in jail because they could not afford a good lawyer. **The guy's name was Harold Fish. He used "devastating 10mm hollow point ammunition" to kill a homeless man with mental illness and violence issues. Note in the Harold Fish case the issue with the Jury was the "Hollow Point" bullet, not handloads. Note, That most if not ALL Self Defense Specialty Ammo is "Devastating Hollow Points". If you do not want to become another Harold Fish I would suggest you carry something other that Self Defense HP Ammo. BTW, the Laws that convicted Fish in Arizona at the time have since been change and the SRG Law and Castle Doctrine have replaced them, so this kind of injustice cannot happen again. |
| I havent seen the GSR case being refered to, but I can assure you that GSR analysis (muzzle to target distance determination) can be done with handloads. We would need to have ammo samples or know the receipe used but that is not a huge hurdle. To date after 14 years of working in forensic firearms, I have never seen a case that handloads have ever come in to play against the shooter. Nor has any other firearms examiner I have talked to. If your involved in a shooting, you need to make sure you are represented by a good attorney that can articulate why you did what you did and is educated enough in firearms to call BS when needed. I had a DA make a issue about the type of ammo used in a self defense shooting case (it was factory Speer Gold Dot). The DA was implying that the shooter had bad intent when they choose this ammo. That line of questioning ended when I noted that was the same ammo I use on duty and was in use by all the LE in the court room. |
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Keep it simple, use what LE uses .
Just because in 14years one has never heard of it being a problem doesn't mean it wont happen, that is why anecdotal evidence isn't very good. In how many of those cases were handloads used,.00001%, fewer? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Keep it simple, use what LE uses . Just because in 14years one has never heard of it being a problem doesn't mean it wont happen, that is why anecdotal evidence isn't very good. In how many of those cases were handloads used,.00001%, fewer? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Lets not forget the civil suit aspect of it, either... |
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Lets not forget the civil suit aspect of it, either... Quoted:
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Keep it simple, use what LE uses . Just because in 14years one has never heard of it being a problem doesn't mean it wont happen, that is why anecdotal evidence isn't very good. In how many of those cases were handloads used,.00001%, fewer? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Lets not forget the civil suit aspect of it, either... Do you have any case law showing a Civil Suit where Handloads was an issue or even brought into question? If not, might be a good idea to indeed forget it. In my State one cannot be sued in any type of Civil Suit if the "shoot" is deemed a Legal SD Shoot. Might want to check the Laws in your State if you are concerned about it. If your State allows for Civil suits of this kind, your choice of ammo ain't gunna save your ass. |
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I carry handloads.
Currently 9mm HP and for a long time before that .357mag HP I'll trust my life or my families life with somthing I've proven will work and gets checked and double checked while loading and worry about the details of retaining the status of "Still among the Living" later. |
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I go back and forth to carry reloads or not, currently I'm carrying Federal HST in 9mm but might come the day when I need to reup, not sure what I'll do.
I hear good points on both sides of the argument though. In MI if you are cleared of criminal charges in SD shooting you are protected from civil lawsuit. |
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Lets not forget the civil suit aspect of it, either... Quoted:
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Keep it simple, use what LE uses . Just because in 14years one has never heard of it being a problem doesn't mean it wont happen, that is why anecdotal evidence isn't very good. In how many of those cases were handloads used,.00001%, fewer? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Lets not forget the civil suit aspect of it, either... I was in a "debate" with an older gentlemen a few days ago on this subject. He was adamant one should not carry hand-loads because of the civil lawsuit possibility- he was supposedly some sort of investigator who now works at a gun store and talks about his sniper rifle every chance he can...... On the flip side, my old neighbor told be it did not matter what you carried and that he investigated several shootings as a sheriff's investigator where reloads were used. He told me all he did was find out the load info and he was able to carry on like it was nothing special. It makes no sense to hear of someone being sued in civil court for using "devastating ammo". I hear lots of people talking about this but they can't ever find the exact court ruling on the case. If you could be sued for the type of ammo you use then how can manufacturers such as DRT stay in business? Their ammo is designed to KILL, not stop. " In MI if you are cleared of criminal charges in SD shooting you are protected from civil lawsuit. jbizzle" This is awesome and needs to be brought up in other states who allow CCW permits... |
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I say what ever is more reliable in your firearm. I rather go to court than be dead because my firearm failed going into battery being handloads or commercial loads. If you use handloads and had to go to court I bet the NRA would help backing you up
Just remember any anti-gun DA is gonna make the case that you should be dead over the person who attacked you weather you used factory or handloads |
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Do you have any case law showing a Civil Suit where Handloads was an issue or even brought into question? If not, might be a good idea to indeed forget it. In my State one cannot be sued in any type of Civil Suit if the "shoot" is deemed a Legal SD Shoot. Might want to check the Laws in your State if you are concerned about it. If your State allows for Civil suits of this kind, your choice of ammo ain't gunna save your ass. Quoted:
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Keep it simple, use what LE uses . Just because in 14years one has never heard of it being a problem doesn't mean it wont happen, that is why anecdotal evidence isn't very good. In how many of those cases were handloads used,.00001%, fewer? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Lets not forget the civil suit aspect of it, either... Do you have any case law showing a Civil Suit where Handloads was an issue or even brought into question? If not, might be a good idea to indeed forget it. In my State one cannot be sued in any type of Civil Suit if the "shoot" is deemed a Legal SD Shoot. Might want to check the Laws in your State if you are concerned about it. If your State allows for Civil suits of this kind, your choice of ammo ain't gunna save your ass. I don't require case law to make prudent choices for myself. I can afford 50-100 or so per year of my HSTs and practice with my cheap reloads. There is very little benifit so why bother with a problem that, however slight, might arise. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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A justified, legal good shoot is exactly that.
Ayoob started writing that stuff about handloads starting in the 70s. Should you take a justified, legal self-defense shot and stop or eliminate the threat I don't think it will matter if you used a cartridge identical to what your local, state, or federal authorities carry or if you hit the bad guy with the same load you shot at Camp Perry in national competition. |
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A while back, it was recommended to me to always carry factory loaded ammo for personal defense. It sounds to me like solid advice. What's wrong with it? Just consider that question. I believe the answer is, there's just nothing wrong with this recommendation as a plan. I won't defend this recommendation any further. I've done so in the past and read others' discussion too many times. |
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A justified, legal good shoot is exactly that. Ayoob started writing that stuff about handloads starting in the 70s. Should you take a justified, legal self-defense shot and stop or eliminate the threat I don't think it will matter if you used a cartridge identical to what your local, state, or federal authorities carry or if you hit the bad guy with the same load you shot at Camp Perry in national competition. Ayoob also highly recommends that one practice, practice, practice with the same ammo that one carries. I would expect nothing less from a man that gets paid a healthy sum for endorsing Specialty SD Ammo. Ayoob is the Al Gore of the shooting world. |
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Ayoob also highly recommends that one practice, practice, practice with the same ammo that one carries. I would expect nothing less from a man that gets paid a healthy sum for endorsing Specialty SD Ammo. Ayoob is the Al Gore of the shooting world. Quoted:
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A justified, legal good shoot is exactly that. Ayoob started writing that stuff about handloads starting in the 70s. Should you take a justified, legal self-defense shot and stop or eliminate the threat I don't think it will matter if you used a cartridge identical to what your local, state, or federal authorities carry or if you hit the bad guy with the same load you shot at Camp Perry in national competition. Ayoob also highly recommends that one practice, practice, practice with the same ammo that one carries. I would expect nothing less from a man that gets paid a healthy sum for endorsing Specialty SD Ammo. Ayoob is the Al Gore of the shooting world. I don't care what ammo you plan to use. He is right about the practice with what you shoot part. |
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I don't care what ammo you plan to use. He is right about the practice with what you shoot part. Quoted:
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A justified, legal good shoot is exactly that. Ayoob started writing that stuff about handloads starting in the 70s. Should you take a justified, legal self-defense shot and stop or eliminate the threat I don't think it will matter if you used a cartridge identical to what your local, state, or federal authorities carry or if you hit the bad guy with the same load you shot at Camp Perry in national competition. Ayoob also highly recommends that one practice, practice, practice with the same ammo that one carries. I would expect nothing less from a man that gets paid a healthy sum for endorsing Specialty SD Ammo. Ayoob is the Al Gore of the shooting world. I don't care what ammo you plan to use. He is right about the practice with what you shoot part. Yes he is, but most who listen to him, buy one or two boxes of Factory SD ammo for carry only and rarely practice with it as it is two expensive. |
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Hate to see this thread subject float to the top again. I am not going to spend $1.20 / rd on SD rounds just because it says so on the box.
I pick an SD that I like, reverse engineer it, and make my own. It is just like the SD in the comm'l box only probably more reliable as it came from my own assembly process. (Yes, I know. I stopped putting the ricin drops in the JHPs few years back. The darn stuff has a shelf life.)   
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Here in the great state of MS, if a person requires shooting, it is generally expected they require killing. Factory or handlods be danged. If i shot a bad guy, i wouldn't stop til he was DONE. Unless i3 needed to save some for his buddies. Has anyone watched a horror movie lately? Do u want to be the guy that "killed" that demonspawn serial killer pedophile only to turn ur back and become the next victim? I say two to the chest and one to head, after they are on their back and bleeding .
Common sense tells me if they are worth shooting, they r worth killing. I firmly believe if it comes down to the point of shooting someone, the intent to kill is a given. If they survive, they are blessed. And still alive to seek revenge. All legalities aside, handloads or factory ammo, if someone backs me in a corner, or threatens my family, to the point of requiring that I shoot them, I will shoot them until they are dead. Dont get caught pokin' ur head in my window. Of course, if u live in one of these commie-nazi gunhating liberal states u have to decide whether its better to save a life (thats the idea behind self defense right?) or maybe be butt buddies with some bubba. U know ur not gonna get the chair anyway. Sorry dryflash. I know better. ThatsGD stuff i get it. Just my take on shooting bad guys. |
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Hate to see this thread subject float to the top again. I am not going to spend $1.20 / rd on SD rounds just because it says so on the box. I pick an SD that I like, reverse engineer it, and make my own. It is just like the SD in the comm'l box only probably more reliable as it came from my own assembly process. Sounds like a great plan, ... and is thoroughly consistent with the Reloading Forum content. 
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I'm torn because of the liability issues, but my reloads and self made new ammo shoot great in my Glock 30. It eats everything.
I have hundreds of Golden Saber bullets I bought many years ago so a loaded cartridge using all new components only costs me about 20 cents, vs 80 cents for factory stuff. So I do practice with my ammo but carry factory. But I don't shoot a lot of the factory defensive stuff so I really don't know if it's reliable. 
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A while back, it was recommended to me to always carry factory loaded ammo for personal defense. I forget the person who mentioned that to me, but, I think it was for legal reasons that he said it. So, I'm wondering if anyone else reloads the own personal defense ammo. I'm considering it myself, but wanna see what others think. I know I can get some pretty consistent performance out of the stuff I reload, and I can chrono them to try to match the performance of factory rounds. Living in NYS you should know better with the unsafe act and being a liberal heaven i wouldn't carry hand loaded ammo for SD. |
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Living in NYS you should know better with the unsafe act and being a liberal heaven i wouldn't carry hand loaded ammo for SD. Quoted:
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A while back, it was recommended to me to always carry factory loaded ammo for personal defense. I forget the person who mentioned that to me, but, I think it was for legal reasons that he said it. So, I'm wondering if anyone else reloads the own personal defense ammo. I'm considering it myself, but wanna see what others think. I know I can get some pretty consistent performance out of the stuff I reload, and I can chrono them to try to match the performance of factory rounds. Living in NYS you should know better with the unsafe act and being a liberal heaven i wouldn't carry hand loaded ammo for SD. I will add this disclaimer to my first response. If I lived in a liberal place like NY then I would probably move. If I couldn't move, I would revisit the idea of carrying handloads. Carrying handloads has a risk factor of almost zero in a semi liberal state like texas, or kansas where i'm from. Not sure i'd trust it in another state that is more liberal. The problem is that I want to be able to practice with my sd ammo. I can't afford to shoot 5 or 10 thousand rounds a year of factory ammo. That's why I reload. |
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I carry my handloads. I trust them to fit, feed fire more than I do Factory ammo. Massad Ayoob has been preaching the evils of carrying handloads for years. With all his preaching, he has yet to find one legal case where handloads were used against and individual involved in a "good" shoot. Funny thing about old Massad, he started preaching this crap just about the time he started endorsing special SD Factory Ammo. Imagine that? This ^^ in spades! |
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I enjoyed reading the various opinions on this, and I carry Speer GDHP factory ammo in my P-11. Gander mountain had it in 375rd bulk packs that were labeled "not for LE use", and it was cheap enough to use at the range. As far as the climate of the state, its similar to CA. The state outside of NYC is mostly conservative, but laws and taxes are mostly controlled by that hemorrhoid hanging off the southeast part of the state. There have been justified shootings in my area, and usually turns out OK for the person protecting themself. I have only had one instance of having to draw my weapon for self defense, but never had to fire it. I think for now, I'll stick with the factory ammo, since I still have enough of it. Maybe what might be a good idea is to try to reload some ammo that performs similar to the factory stuff, for practice. Though for home defense, I think it's "safer" (legally speaking) for reloaded ammo. Once they're inside your house, all bets are off. |
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I just looked over NC CCH a law, and there is immunity from criminal and civil liability for a clean Self Defense shoot. It doesn't mention reloads.
They expanded it last year, but it still restricts where you can carry. At least you can have it your car, even on educational property if you have a CCH. |
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I'm a lawyer. I'm a former prosecutor, and criminal defense attorney, and I've done both sides of civil suits. I carry reloads. When I lived in IL, I had reloads in my HD pistol. A good shoot is a good shoot, period. I like your advice - I see you live in Texas too :) Hopefully I'll never have to call you, but it's good to know you're out there. |
| I have a nice supply of Winchester Ranger 230grn .45 +P that I've had since before I reloaded. The reloads I use for training are loaded to max. I don't think I'll be loading any +P anytime soon. That and some of the SD ammo seems to be loaded with projectiles that are very hard to come by if not impossible. |
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I do. Imho the no reloads for legal reasons is bs spouted by ignorant people but I could be wrong. By the time I shoot someone there no doubt I mean to kill them no matter who made the ammo. Yup. A good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of ammo, weapon, etc. and a bad shoot isn't any better just because you used something different. So long as you behave legally, it is unlikely to make any difference. Remember that they aren't even going to know that it's reloaded until they begin an investigation in earnest (if ever), which won't happen until the DA secures an indictment. They aren't going to waste lab resources on a case that isn't even likely to be prosecuted. In many states, the cops will collect evidence, including your handgun, they'll interview witnesses, including you (a good idea to speak through a lawyer), and in many cases they may even release you right there if there is no indication of wrong doing. Look at Zimmerman. The poor guy got three feet of broom in his ass but that was only after political pressure for an arrest. He was initially questioned and released when it became apparent that he acted legally. This whole concept of being scared to use legal means for defense was started by Mas Ayoob to sell magazines. It is based on the fact that some of the people that he testified for were involved in extremely atypical shootings (e.g. using a legally registered machine gun to defend oneself). I prefer factory ammo for defense just because $20 for a little more than a magazine is a fair price for peace of mind regarding quality control. I know that I turn out good ammo but I'm only human and it's probably more likely that I fail to throw a charge in one case than it is for the factory stuff. For 10mm, though, I carry hand loads because no one makes what I want to carry. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Reloading Carry Ammo (Page 1 of 2)
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