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Posted: 8/8/2013 4:49:24 AM EDT
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I've been reloading on a turret press for a couple years now. Mostly 9mm, .45 acp, .223 Rem, and .308 Win, with smaller volumes of .380 acp, 300 BLK, .338 LM. Maybe a couple thousand rounds per month. Time to buy a progressive press.
I don't plink with the .308 and .338 LM so those will continue to be loaded single stage. Initially I was leaning toward the Dillon 650, but some of what I've read on this forum and elsewhere has made me rethink that. Specifically, the amount of play / looseness people say that press has. I'm sure it'd be fine for the pistol calibers, but I really want and need to be able to crank out a lot of very high quality .223 Rem ammo. I also admit a certain (maybe irrational) penchant for machines with top fit/finish even if it's not strictly necessary. (The normal 'wobble' on AAC suppressor mounts drives me batshit, it just isn't right.) At that point I figured I might as well just bite the bullet and get a 1050, even though my projected volumes are well below the usual guides for what that machine justifies. But it just has a reputation as a tighter machine. One big downside beyond cost ... caliber change times. I can see myself loading, in one day, some of this, some of that, then some of that. I looked at the Hornady, it's a possibility. Nothing really leaps out at me to make me think, "yeah THIS feature is unique to this press" ... Then I read about the RCBS Pro2000 and started wondering why it's not discussed here often. I picked through the archives for a while, and its few owners seem to be pretty happy with it. It's always hard to sift through the confirmation bias though. And most of the discussions are years old. Pros - very fast caliber changes, and I like the idea of the APS priming system a lot. Cons - no case feeder. Budget is flexible (I'm still considering the 1050), but I don't see a reason to be needlessly wasteful. I'm leaning toward the Pro2000 as the best fit for my needs. I'd appreciate some comments on the Pro2000 in general, and its suitability for my specific purposes. Thanks. |
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Quoted:
I'd appreciate some comments on the Pro2000 in general, and its suitability for my specific purposes. Thanks. If you can get past the need for a case feeder, then yes, the Pro2000 is an excellent press. I own two of them - one set up for rifle, one set up for pistol. The only reason I did this was really so I wouldn't have to set up different bullet feeders... I use an RCBS pistol feeder (9mm, .40, and .45), and a Mr. Bulletfeeder for rifle (.223, .308, .30-06). I could have just mounted both bullet feeders side-by-side, but going with the whole, "two is one, and one is none" philosophy, well... :) What I like most about the press is the APS priming system. I have a LnL as well, and have worked with it and it's tube-fed priming system.... just don't like it. The APS strips are just so much more convenient, take no longer to load than a primer tube, and I can visually inspect the strips to make sure no primers are upside-down. Changing from large to small primers is literally a 30-second task... faster than any other progressive. I don't understand why, but some people seem to prefer a manually-indexing progressive. If it matters, the Pro2000 is the only press than can switch from auto-index to manual-index. Again, I don't understand the need - I guess some feel they have more "control" over press operations by manually indexing. To me, it seems like a way to invite a double-charge. <shrug> My only complaint, and it's a pretty minor one, is that if/when the APS feeding mechanism gets dirtied up, it's a little bit of a pain to disassembly and clean it up. First, you have to remove the shell plate - no big deal, that's one bolt. Then, you need to remove three little allen-head screws that hold the case retainer springs. Then, you need to remove two more allen-head screws (not the same size wrench as the first three - that would be almost convenient) to remove the cover plate to the APS system. And, with the frame of the press in the way, you can't really use anything but the little individual allen keys (can't fit a nice, big T-handle in there easily). Fortunately, I don't have to do this often - and a blast of compressed air through the in-feed slot is usually all it takes to clear things up. But, if you jam a spent primer in there, from a not-quite-successful decapping operation, then you're disassembling things. I do the same thing you're looking to do... in one session, I may load up some .45ACP, the switch to 9MM, then switch to .44MAG. Conversions are very fast. Some people may object to the one fixed die station (station 3 - fixed to the press, not part of the removable die plate). Originally, it was intended to keep your powder measure here in this station. However, with the trend of using a bullet feeder, the power charging has moved to station #2, where you both expand and powder charge in one station. For me, this leaves the fixed station #3 as a dedicated powder-check station. I used to just swap in lock-out dies (one set up for large cases, one set up for small), but have since converted over to using Dillon's powder check system. The lock-out die from RCBS is great, but it only works with pistol cases. The Dillon system works with both pistol and rifle, is easier/quicker to adjust, and I find the audible alarm just as "alarming" as the lock-out die jamming up the press. As I said before, the one big downside to the Pro2000 is it's lack of a case feeder. For loading, this really isn't that big a deal - with the use of a bullet feeder, you can load cases in by hand just as fast as a case feeder. For prepping rifle brass, however, having a case feeder is a handy thing. For one, you can go a lot faster - you're not worried about seating primers or charging with powder - you want to move the cases through the dies as fast as you can (within reason). For another, it saves you from having to touch the cases, and messing with lube. You can lube your cases with spray, dump 'em in the case feeder, collect them in the compelted cartridge bin, then dump them back in the tumbler to clean off the lube - all without ever touching them. It is a much better way of doing it. That's why I went and got a LnL, just to prep rifle brass. I used to do it on my Pro2000 - using mainly Imperial sizing wax. That worked, but it took me about twice as long as it does now with the LnL. |
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I have an auto-indexing Pro 2000, and have posted my views on it here before (so you probably read that). I won't repeat everything since you already searched, but I'm still very impressed with my decision to go RCBS. I've reloaded 11k + on it now, with very very few problems. I concur with the minor annoyances already listed, but the benefits far outweigh the inconvenience. I load 9mm, .38/.357, .40, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .223, .308 on it now, and will be doing .480 Ruger & 30-06 on it soon (my volume of those is so low I've used my single stage to date, but because caliber changes are easy & may as well just get the shell plates and go). I run the powder drop in position #3, with the RCBS lockout die in #4 for pistol.
This is my first progressive, so I don't have a benchmark to compare to. But, between the APS system, the ease of caliber changes and the general trouble-free operation I've experienced, I think anything but a Dillon would be a letdown for me. I didn't pay Dillon prices though... so I'm very happy. I'm pretty conservative / cautious still, so I think I'm probably slower than the average user. That said, I average right at 300 rounds per hour - plenty for my needs at this point. I think if I pushed it, I could run 400 - without a case feeder and without a bullet feeder. GWHIS will be along any time to expound on anything new he's created / learned relative to the Pro 2000. He's done some very creative stuff to make it even better. Edited to Add: I think the reason you hear so little about them is twofold. First, I think that as good as RCBS is with the products & customer service, they fall way short on marketing. Perhaps they're happy with their corner of the market... but I think if they did a better job marketing, they'd do so much better. Second, I think that since the press just plain works, there isn't a whole lot to talk about. Forums tend to attract people complaining about something first, and then you hear about the minor tweaks / adjustments / add-ons that make it work better. |
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Quoted: ............ I think if I pushed it, I could run 400 - without a case feeder and without a bullet feeder. GWHIS will be along any time to expound on anything new he's created / learned relative to the Pro 2000. He's done some very creative stuff to make it even better. Edited to Add: I think the reason you hear so little about them is twofold. First, I think that as good as RCBS is with the products & customer service, they fall way short on marketing. Perhaps they're happy with their corner of the market... but I think if they did a better job marketing, they'd do so much better. Second, I think that since the press just plain works, there isn't a whole lot to talk about. Forums tend to attract people complaining about something first, and then you hear about the minor tweaks / adjustments / add-ons that make it work better. The Pro 2000 (nor any other progressive) is not in the same class as a Dillon 1050....that's a commercial machine with a commercial warranty, and a price to match. But in a home progressive the Pro 2000 is as close as you can get...starting with the cast iron casting. No case feeder....but then the Dillon 1050 has no APS primer system.  What I love about the Pro 2000....besides it's superior primer system, is it's cast iron solid simplicity. While no press is perfect, fewer moving parts mean fewer things to tweak, adjust, keep in sync, break, and keep clean....and therefore fewer things go wrong. It's that same simplicity that makes it easy for me to mod-in my own tools to make it even better. In that, the Pro 2000 has no equal. You are right about RCBS's nonchalant marketing.....and the insignificant forum chatter about this or that not working on the Pro 2000. Such threads exist, but they tend to die quickly, as problems with the press are 90% user learning curve problems, rather than equipment problems, and are easily solved with a tiny bit of coaching. When I bought my press 5 years ago, I thought I didn't need a bullet feeder or a case feeder. As I continue to get older (and slower) I have changed my mind, but ONLY on the condition that such feeders could be simple (remember older and slower). I refuse to add tools to my press that make it complicated or less reliable to use, or that makes caliber-change a longer, more tedious process than the simple and fast original RCBS Pro 2000 caliber-change process. There's only one reliable factory case feeder and that's Dillon's for their 650 press.....but quick to change it ain't. I found that adding Hornady's super simple bullet feeder (modded and improved of course) was what I was looking for for pistol calibers.....and that using RCBS's Gold Medal Seaters made a rifle bullet feeder not necessary. However......because you just drop bullets into the die above the die plate, Gold medal dies do provide the possibility of a future collator build....to do the dropping. (If you look at RCBS's rifle bullet feeder closely, you will see that they started with the concept already found in their Competition and Gold Medal seaters, and added a link to the case-activated powder drop.)Later I was able to make a case feeder that also was simple, caliber-change wise.....and cheap as well. (in the first link above) Anyway.....why I've changed my mind on feeders is because as I get older, I find it harder to keep track of multiple things at once. With feeders doing the busy work, all I have to concentrate on, is making sure primers strips are added, and powder levels are correct.........for me, it has nothing to do with speed and everything to do with safety and load quality. (Geeze O.P., I thought I had little to say....sorry for the book) |
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I was just thinking about going to a progressive press for .223 loading. My son and I like to shoot the ARs and it would be nice to load up plinking rounds quickly. I have an RCBS turret press which I used to reload .223 and .45acp on now. Works great. I thought about the RCBS progressive presses since I am happy with my turret press. The lack of a case feeder is a deal breaker. Right of the bat I will not have a case or bullet feeder but over time I would want to add them. The Dillon fanboys will tell you nothing else works only Dillon. After doing some research I am going to go with the Hornady Lock n Load. Now I just need to sell a few items to come up with the money and wait for a sale.
Here is a nice article comparing 3 popular progressives. |
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Too bad so many "reviews" ignore the best one...as if it didn't exist. This IS a thread about the Pro 2000, you know. Your "nice" review goes in another thread. So now I've experienced no feeder, bullet feeder only, and now both. I will say that if you can only afford one feeder, a bullet feeder makes more sense to me. It's just flat easier (and faster) to slide a case into a slot than place a bullet on a case that often needs to be "led" into the die so it won't present itself at an angle. If you get in a hurry you can bite the hell out of your fingers while holding them up when the ram comes up. Not so placing cases by hand. You won't have any problem finding threads about stumped users trying to make their Hornady's AP case feeder work for multiple calibers. Buy the bullet feeder first. The one thing I like about the AP is their unique smooth 2 stroke advance....and their Uniflow-copy powder measure. Hornady licensed the Uniflow and made a killer case-activated linkage for their progressive for it. RCBS, thoroughly impressed with Hornady's linkage idea, licensed the linkage for their own Pro 2000. So you can interchange case-activated linkage assemblies....I use both. I don't like the fixed tool head with dies held captive in bushings, or the wobbly case holder that presents cases not so straight to the unyielding dies above. Much prefer a removable tool head with just enough play to center the cases in the dies (as long as they aren't rammed in, in a YouTube style race. Of course people and opinions differ....that's what makes the reloading world interesting. |
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I was just thinking about going to a progressive press for .223 loading. My son and I like to shoot the ARs and it would be nice to load up plinking rounds quickly. I have an RCBS turret press which I used to reload .223 and .45acp on now. Works great. I thought about the RCBS progressive presses since I am happy with my turret press. The lack of a case feeder is a deal breaker. Right of the bat I will not have a case or bullet feeder but over time I would want to add them. The Dillon fanboys will tell you nothing else works only Dillon. After doing some research I am going to go with the Hornady Lock n Load. Now I just need to sell a few items to come up with the money and wait for a sale. Here is a nice article comparing 3 popular progressives. That's a well written, informative review - and one that I've not read before. It's interesting that he chose not to evaluate the RCBS at all (presumably because of the lack of feeder?). If he did, I think the RCBS would have rated as highly as the Hornady with a huge edge in the priming / simplicity of design & maintenance areas, and a slight edge in caliber / primer changes. |
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THIS new thread here at AR15.com is one reason why I prefer an RCBS Pro 2000 or a Dillon 1050. Cast Iron rather than Aluminum. All the other progressives are aluminum castings. they are made larger to try to compensate, but it doesn't stop the breakage does it. It's not hard to find similar posts about non-1050 Dillons too. |
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On a Pro2000... can you move the powder charge to any station or does it have to stay in station 3?
If you put a CAPD in station 2 it would probably work, right? In that case, could you use station 3 for other dies? I guess I don't really understand the fixed station yet. |
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On a Pro2000... can you move the powder charge to any station or does it have to stay in station 3? If you put a CAPD in station 2 it would probably work, right? In that case, could you use station 3 for other dies? I guess I don't really understand the fixed station yet. Yes, you can, and many do. This is how I have all my die plates set up - each die plate has a dedicated lower powder die, with appropriate bullet expander, all dialed in to give the proper belling to the case mouth. It becomes a simple task to move the Uniflow from die to die. This lets you use station 3 for a powder check. In the picture below, I'm set up for loading .223 - powder-charging in station 2, a powder check die in 3, bullet feeding/seating in 4, and crimping in 5: 
I've since modified both my presses to use the Dillon powder check system - and these remain a mostly permanent fixture in the press. All powder dropping is now done in station 2, on the removable die plate: 
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