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Posted: 7/17/2013 2:04:38 PM EDT
I bought 1,000 of the factory seconds 168gr projectiles and I just want to figure out which brand they are. Can you please take the time to measure a few and give an average OAL and possibly pictures of the base to compare. I will get pictures as soon as I can fix my laptop! Desktop doesn't have a SD card reader 
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That's a good score. If you have a scale, one thing YOU can do right now is weigh them and see how consistent they are. The other thing you can do is measure their diameters with a caliper or micrometer to see how consistent those are. If the measurements are consistent and at or close to .308, indicative of decent quality, then put out the happy face. Same if you got them for a good price.
I have seconds from Sierra, they shoot fine. When you post pics, with perhaps results of your measurements, we may be able to help ID them right there. If they are good quality and shoot good, no need to ID them at all. |
The sad face is because I fixed a loose power connector (where it charges) on my laptop. But now it wont turn on. I need to tear it apart and check all the connections. I will have pictures soon hopefully! 
These are still availible at powder valley FYI $110 per 500 168gr, or $120ish for 175gr |
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I got mine from the ups man last night. They are SMK's I got the 175gr and they were in way better condition than I expect having never bought 2nds. All I could see was a little discoloring on the jackets. Haven't opened the bag and weighed any yet There seems to be a few scratches in the jacket in a few. Nothing like the hornady seconds I have had in the past. |
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When I shot Highpower Rifle Silloutte I used both and really can't remember anything much different between the 2. In fact I used the exact same load for both. Most of us bought what ever was on sale. What we paid for our stuff back then (late 80's-into 90's) would make most cry today to see.
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The average is not as important as a series of weights (and variance or std deviation if you want to get technical). That is, in weighing 10 or 20 bullets, how far apart were they in weight. In my experience Sierra, Nosler or Hornady match bullets will only vary by 1 or 2 tenths in any long run of measurements.
Its consistency that counts. |
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Here's a way to tell for sure if they are PPU/PRVI.
Put your caliper's jaws over the bullet such that the length of the bullet is parallel to the length of the jaws - the bullet's point should be facing the scale of the caliper (not up or down). Close the jaws on the bullet. Release your grip on the bullet. If the bullet is held in the jaws at only one spot (near the start of the boat tail), then you have PPU/PRVI bullets. They are designed to have the equivalent of a "driving band" near the base and virtually no portion of the bullet in front of that band is not tapered (there's no "shank"). This makes them very difficult to use. As the band seats into the case mouth, it expands the mouth. It is difficult to then crimp and a fairly crimp setting is absolutely necessary. Also, the bullet is held only at the band, meaning they are not well retained in the case - can be pushed further in pretty easily and come back out pretty easily. |
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The average is not as important as a series of weights (and variance or std deviation if you want to get technical). That is, in weighing 10 or 20 bullets, how far apart were they in weight. In my experience Sierra, Nosler or Hornady match bullets will only vary by 1 or 2 tenths in any long run of measurements. Its consistency that counts. To be honest, I really dont care about consistency (yes I want them to be) But I want to know what manufacturer they are. If they are sierra's I will be a bunch more up so I can load them the same as my precision 168gr SMK loads and use them as practice ammo at shorter ranges. Weight isn't going to really tell who the manufacturer are since they are all trying to get close to the advertised weight. |
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Here's a way to tell for sure if they are PPU/PRVI. Put your caliper's jaws over the bullet such that the length of the bullet is parallel to the length of the jaws - the bullet's point should be facing the scale of the caliper (not up or down). Close the jaws on the bullet. Release your grip on the bullet. If the bullet is held in the jaws at only one spot (near the start of the boat tail), then you have PPU/PRVI bullets. They are designed to have the equivalent of a "driving band" near the base and virtually no portion of the bullet in front of that band is not tapered (there's no "shank"). This makes them very difficult to use. As the band seats into the case mouth, it expands the mouth. It is difficult to then crimp and a fairly crimp setting is absolutely necessary. Also, the bullet is held only at the band, meaning they are not well retained in the case - can be pushed further in pretty easily and come back out pretty easily. 
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I don't know who made them but they don't look to be PRVI/PPU.
Let's see if (tomorrow) I can get a comparable picture posted of my PRVI. I also have some 168 Sierras, so I can post a pic of those, too. I don't recall SMK's having those linear striations up near the tip. I think the SMK surface is smoother, too - those look really grainy. |
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I don't know who made them but they don't look to be PRVI/PPU. Let's see if (tomorrow) I can get a comparable picture posted of my PRVI. I also have some 168 Sierras, so I can post a pic of those, too. I don't recall SMK's having those linear striations up near the tip. I think the SMK surface is smoother, too - those look really grainy. If those are PRIVI, they probably shoot better than the good PRIVI |
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I don't know who made them but they don't look to be PRVI/PPU. Let's see if (tomorrow) I can get a comparable picture posted of my PRVI. I also have some 168 Sierras, so I can post a pic of those, too. I don't recall SMK's having those linear striations up near the tip. I think the SMK surface is smoother, too - those look really grainy. These do remind me of how nosler projetiles look in comparison to sierras. The sierras looking smooth and shiny while the noslers being a bit dull and as you described "grainy" I will throw a few in the wet tumbler to see if that helps, as these are a little dirty. Why would a manufacturer n tumble/polish projectiles if they have been deemed seconds. Which means they still could be sierras. They also do look a lot like Hornady 168gr projectiles. And Hornady definitely released blemished projectiles for anonymous sale. |
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Hmm, just found a promising sign.
Look at this picture. The sierra here appears to have verticle lines near the top, plus on the boat tail there is a circle or ring in the middle of the boat tail. Which is visible on the projectiles I got, and is barely visible on the pictures i posted. 
Man, now I'm tempted to order another 1000 or so. Off to see how these are in 300 blackout too 
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Hmm, I was thinking hornady, but powder valley also has 175gr seconds. And Hornady doesn't make a 175gr BTHP projectile. So that rules Hornady out. They are also selling 77gr bthp seconds and hornady doesn't make them either. So either Nosler or Sierra. Midway bought the last HUGE batch of Hornadys... schucks, they still have some available from that buy. |
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BTW, Grafs has them also... as well as the 155gr. and 150gr FMJ ....More dollars ... but... $6.95 Flat rate shipping. NOTE : The BC and SD match Sierra's list figures...
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/920?grafs_vendor_filter=41&grafs_sorting_flydown=stock_available&_swat_form_character_encoding=%C3%A4%E2%84%A2%C2%AE&_swat_form_process=grafs_sorting_form&_swat_form_serialized__swat_form_process=auRBAfJoHpPQd2FWx7MVIQ%7Cs%3A18%3A%22grafs_sorting_form%22%3B&_swat_form_hidden_fields=fDk71VXcXJddn45*bdDhwg%7Ca%3A1%3A%7Bi%3A0%3Bs%3A18%3A%22_swat_form_process%22%3B%7D |
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Regardless of them being seconds... I have had very good luck with all the seconds I have bought.
Only once out of all these decades have I been slightly let down, and that was over some 9mm XTP Hornady seconds that just weren't made right. The serrations were not fully "made", they shoot just fine for paper. But the serrations were only about 1/3 of what they should have been. Even if they don't fire perfect little cloverleafs.... they are a huge step up ( accuracy wise ) from FMJ bullets. |
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Just inflated under this Administration. Heck under Reagan n' Bush it was cheaper to shoot surplus. I remember paying $90 for 1200 rds of 7.62x39.
It should come back to sane prices, with good sales... but that is still a few years away. And all it takes is one nut job to set the Antis in motion. My advice buy the $500 worth and don't look back. ( as long as you can afford it ) . |
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I posted over at the Hide with my initial impressions of my order but I'll give you guys the gist of it.
Received my lot of 77gr .224 "seconds" yesterday and went through them this morning. Pulled 3 lots of 10 at random and weighed on 3 scales for shits and giggles. They were 66.9-77gr. All 30 were in that range, which is pretty good. They have no knicks, thin spots, marks, etc... They are all quite frankly better quality than most of the "firsts" have been lately that I've been loading. They also match up with what I've used in the past as far as SMK's go. I initially only ordered the .224's to get a quick look and then order a bunch of the .308 based on quality, but now I'm wishing I had ordered more of the .224's as well. These are amazing quality for seconds. The ONLY thing I noticed were a few here and there in each handful I pulled from the box that were a bit longer than the others, but not enough for me to be concerned. |
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While back, I reported here that some older "bulk" 168gr OTMs from Wideners had a tapered body or barrel section of the bullet all the way back to the heel or start of boat tail. This made it suckataceous to control neck tension with that particular bullet, even when used as a bolt gun cartridge. The solution was to form a cannelure and roll crimp in the neck after insertion or use a taper crimp.
The bullets shown do not seem to have that problem, but just be aware of the potential. Caveat Emptor. |
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While back, I reported here that some older "bulk" 168gr OTMs from Wideners had a tapered body or barrel section of the bullet all the way back to the heel or start of boat tail. This made it suckataceous to control neck tension with that particular bullet, even when used as a bolt gun cartridge. The solution was to form a cannelure and roll crimp in the neck after insertion or use a taper crimp. The bullets shown do not seem to have that problem, but just be aware of the potential. Caveat Emptor. The "firsts" bulk OTM's that wideners has are generally PPU (Prvi Partizan), and what you are describing is exactly what someone else described PPU projectiles being like. |
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