Armory Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 77gr SMK Powder Choice (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/17/2013 10:59:41 AM EDT
|
I've used a lot of Varget for bullets in that range with good result, but Varget doesn't meter well on my Dillon. (Duh.) So I would really like a spherical or flake powder that gives good accuracy/velocity with 77s. Ideally it would:
not be too temp sensitive meter awesome work OK with 55gr heads too so that I don't have to keep buying kegs of different powders Anybody? I've considered Ramshot TAC, it seems to have a good rep, but I am not committed... |
| I made the switch from N140 to TAC for that very reason. In a 20" Krieger I'm getting a bit over 2800 fps from 24.3 grains of TAC in LC cases and CCI BR-4 primers. I get better than half-MOA with this load. I ran the load up to 2900 fps and the primers looked fine, but the case heads were getting frequent ejector swipes. The swipes disappeared entirely before I hit the 24.3 grain point and after 5 loadings the cases still hold primers. Ramshot also publishes 5.56mm loads for TAC, so it doesn't involve any guesswork. |
|
Quoted:
XBR or Varget XBR works good too. I use it for a 262 clone. H322 is more accurate. Varget is doesn't meter as well as either of the previous. I run that through my chargemaster for .308, but don't run it in my Dillon. The other thing with Varget is to get a hot load, where Varget may shoot best you're either dropping the charge or compressing the heck out of it. WHY? There are so much better powders that have so many fewer headaches in .223. I love Varget... just not in .223. 
|
|
Quoted:
This is too easy. H322 21.6 grains. LASER BEAM ammo in all our guns. Extreme powder, and it's small kernel that meters like a dream. I load 1/4 MOA on my 550b. Wolf SRM primers help a lot too. This is a new one, to me. I just looked it up on the Hodgdon web site. Their description makes it sound just about perfect for 223. Let me ask a few questions. How large are the powder kernels relative to Varget? Does it work for heavy bullets (69, 75 and 80 gr) in 223? Have you noticed a preference for a particular primer, or will Winchester be as good as any? P.S. - TAC truly does meter well. I have no problem throwing VARGET but TAC is easy to throw well. I use 23.5 gr behind a 75 gr bullet. 24.0 and above ws too hot in my rifles. I like some margin for error. |
|
Quoted:
This has become my favorite powder for 77 SMKs. It doesn't work too bad with 55 grain bullets either. Quoted:
Quoted:
RE-15 This has become my favorite powder for 77 SMKs. It doesn't work too bad with 55 grain bullets either. perhaps, but it down right sucks in sub 18" barrels. too slow i guess, and you run out of room in the case with it if your not loading long. That being said i love it in my 20" |
|
Quoted:
This is a new one, to me. I just looked it up on the Hodgdon web site. Their description makes it sound just about perfect for 223. Let me ask a few questions. How large are the powder kernels relative to Varget? Does it work for heavy bullets (69, 75 and 80 gr) in 223? Have you noticed a preference for a particular primer, or will Winchester be as good as any? The powder kernels are maybe 1/3 that of Varget. It works BEST wtih 69s and 77s... 80s too., but most of my loading is with 77s. And yes... the load runs best with WOLF SRMs. I did a primer test with 4 different primers and WOLFs were by far the smallest 100m group. For some reason BR-4s at twice the price shot the worst. Not even MOA. They just didn't play well with that load. 
|
|
Quoted:
perhaps, but it down right sucks in sub 18" barrels. too slow i guess, and you run out of room in the case with it if your not loading long. That being said i love it in my 20" Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
RE-15 This has become my favorite powder for 77 SMKs. It doesn't work too bad with 55 grain bullets either. perhaps, but it down right sucks in sub 18" barrels. too slow i guess, and you run out of room in the case with it if your not loading long. That being said i love it in my 20" I'm switching to AR-comp for this very reason. I should get a little more velocity out of them. |
|
Quoted:
I'm switching to AR-comp for this very reason. I should get a little more velocity out of them. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
RE-15 This has become my favorite powder for 77 SMKs. It doesn't work too bad with 55 grain bullets either. perhaps, but it down right sucks in sub 18" barrels. too slow i guess, and you run out of room in the case with it if your not loading long. That being said i love it in my 20" I'm switching to AR-comp for this very reason. I should get a little more velocity out of them. I don't mess with any of the Reloader powders in the RE family. You can make a great load with them...but there temp sensitivity is unacceptable. |
|
Quoted: I don't mess with any of the Reloader powders in the RE family. You can make a great load with them...but there temp sensitivity is unacceptable. You might want to check your information. The reason I use Reloader 15 is because of its temperature insensitivity. http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx |
|
Quoted:
You might want to check your information. The reason I use Reloader 15 is because of its temperature insensitivity. http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't mess with any of the Reloader powders in the RE family. You can make a great load with them...but there temp sensitivity is unacceptable. You might want to check your information. The reason I use Reloader 15 is because of its temperature insensitivity. http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx Of coures Alliant is going to claim temp stability... because that's a relative claim that won't get you in trouble. That's the other thing I DON'T GET. WHY would they pic RE-15 for mil ammo? I have some of that Mk118 LR... I may have to try a test of my own. RE powders are KNOWN for being temp sensative soup sangwiches. The one thing I DID notice is that Mk118 LR is loaded relatively mild. It Chrono'd slower than my home grown 175 SMK Varget load. Now either they're compensating for RE-15's instability... or allowing for the possibility that the ammo might end up in a gas operated gun. 
|
|
Quoted:
You might want to check your information. The reason I use Reloader 15 is because of its temperature insensitivity. http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't mess with any of the Reloader powders in the RE family. You can make a great load with them...but there temp sensitivity is unacceptable. You might want to check your information. The reason I use Reloader 15 is because of its temperature insensitivity. http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx This is the variation in muzzle velocity between 0 degrees and 125 degrees (from the Hodgdon web site): 
|
|
Quoted:
This is the variation in muzzle velocity between 0 degrees and 125 degrees (from the Hodgdon web site): I guess I don't have to do a test. And NO SURPRISE that 748 is the king of the hill.
I guess it depends on your level of velicity requirements. Shoot! When it spike in temp out here... even REAL temp sensative powder will throw bullets over the target at 1000 yards. Barrel temps I guess. |
|
Quoted:
Of coures Alliant is going to claim temp stability... because that's a relative claim that won't get you in trouble. That's the other thing I DON'T GET. WHY would they pic RE-15 for mil ammo? I have some of that Mk118 LR... I may have to try a test of my own. RE powders are KNOWN for being temp sensative soup sangwiches. The one thing I DID notice is that Mk118 LR is loaded relatively mild. It Chrono'd slower than my home grown 175 SMK Varget load. Now either they're compensating for RE-15's instability... or allowing for the possibility that the ammo might end up in a gas operated gun. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't mess with any of the Reloader powders in the RE family. You can make a great load with them...but there temp sensitivity is unacceptable. You might want to check your information. The reason I use Reloader 15 is because of its temperature insensitivity. http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx Of coures Alliant is going to claim temp stability... because that's a relative claim that won't get you in trouble. That's the other thing I DON'T GET. WHY would they pic RE-15 for mil ammo? I have some of that Mk118 LR... I may have to try a test of my own. RE powders are KNOWN for being temp sensative soup sangwiches. The one thing I DID notice is that Mk118 LR is loaded relatively mild. It Chrono'd slower than my home grown 175 SMK Varget load. Now either they're compensating for RE-15's instability... or allowing for the possibility that the ammo might end up in a gas operated gun. The M118/M118 LR are way low in pressure compared to some .308 load due to required chamber interoperability. And I have never hit higher than 25 fps difference from 20-94 degrees on the same day. Granted my elevation changes were from Phoenix AZ (1000 ft), to Flagstaff AZ (6000) ft. |
|
Quoted: Of coures Alliant is going to claim temp stability... because that's a relative claim that won't get you in trouble. That's the other thing I DON'T GET. WHY would they pic RE-15 for mil ammo? I have some of that Mk118 LR... I may have to try a test of my own. RE powders are KNOWN for being temp sensative soup sangwiches. The one thing I DID notice is that Mk118 LR is loaded relatively mild. It Chrono'd slower than my home grown 175 SMK Varget load. Now either they're compensating for RE-15's instability... or allowing for the possibility that the ammo might end up in a gas operated gun. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't mess with any of the Reloader powders in the RE family. You can make a great load with them...but there temp sensitivity is unacceptable. You might want to check your information. The reason I use Reloader 15 is because of its temperature insensitivity. http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/reloder15.aspx Of coures Alliant is going to claim temp stability... because that's a relative claim that won't get you in trouble. That's the other thing I DON'T GET. WHY would they pic RE-15 for mil ammo? I have some of that Mk118 LR... I may have to try a test of my own. RE powders are KNOWN for being temp sensative soup sangwiches. The one thing I DID notice is that Mk118 LR is loaded relatively mild. It Chrono'd slower than my home grown 175 SMK Varget load. Now either they're compensating for RE-15's instability... or allowing for the possibility that the ammo might end up in a gas operated gun. RE15, RE17 and AR-Comp are the only powders that Alliant lays claim to regarding temperature stability. I've tested my RE15 77 SMK loads in both below zero and 98 degree temperatures and the velocities were very consistent. I believe if you'd claim that a powder is temperature stable and it isn't that would get you in trouble. By not making the claim, I would perceive as taking the safe route and not get the company in trouble. ETA: 50 FPS claimed by the competitor isn't that bad. I doubt it would have a notable effect for all but bench rest shooters. (of which I'm not) |
|
Quoted:
RE15, RE17 and AR-Comp are the only powders that Alliant lays claim to regarding temperature stability. I remember AR-comp as some sort of Temp stabile version of RE15 that would be more reliable in gas guns? 
I've never tried it.... but I thought that's what the interpretation in the reloading community was why they developed it. I haven't shot RE 15 in 3 years... I might pick up a pound to play with when components are cheap again. |
|
Quoted:
I remember AR-comp as some sort of Temp stabile version of RE15 that would be more reliable in gas guns?
I've never tried it.... but I thought that's what the interpretation in the reloading community was why they developed it. I haven't shot RE 15 in 3 years... I might pick up a pound to play with when components are cheap again. Quoted:
Quoted:
RE15, RE17 and AR-Comp are the only powders that Alliant lays claim to regarding temperature stability. I remember AR-comp as some sort of Temp stabile version of RE15 that would be more reliable in gas guns?
I've never tried it.... but I thought that's what the interpretation in the reloading community was why they developed it. I haven't shot RE 15 in 3 years... I might pick up a pound to play with when components are cheap again. It is suppose to be slightly more temp stable, but also burn quicker. I'm waiting on a case of 210M and 215M primers to arrive so I can test it out. |
|
Quoted:In a 20" Krieger I'm getting a bit over 2800 fps from 24.3 grains of TAC in LC cases and CCI BR-4 primers. I get better than half-MOA with this load. I ran the load up to 2900 fps. 2900 from a 77 in a 20" ? Krieger cut rifling give you a boost? Pretty much all the data I've seen maxes out around 2750, even with a 24" test barrel as with Ramshot's max TAC load in 223. They give a 5.56 max load of TAC making 2902 from a 24". |
|
Quoted:
I doubt I even have a full pound of Varget, and don't worry, I'll manage to dispose of it. H322 sounds interesting to me, anybody got a solid load for it and Hornady 55gr FMJ W/C? Looks like 22.6-22.8 might be the sweet spot.... I found a good node at 23.0 grn of H322 using the 55 grn Hornady SP bullet in LC cases with a Wolf SRM primer. I bet the FMJBT would be close if not the same. ZA |
|
Quoted:
2900 from a 77 in a 20" ? Krieger cut rifling give you a boost? Pretty much all the data I've seen maxes out around 2750, even with a 24" test barrel as with Ramshot's max TAC load in 223. They give a 5.56 max load of TAC making 2902 from a 24". Quoted:
Quoted:In a 20" Krieger I'm getting a bit over 2800 fps from 24.3 grains of TAC in LC cases and CCI BR-4 primers. I get better than half-MOA with this load. I ran the load up to 2900 fps. 2900 from a 77 in a 20" ? Krieger cut rifling give you a boost? Pretty much all the data I've seen maxes out around 2750, even with a 24" test barrel as with Ramshot's max TAC load in 223. They give a 5.56 max load of TAC making 2902 from a 24". Perhaps. The barrel did speed up as it broke in (as did my Krieger in 6.5C) and cost me 2nd place in a match and a bit of frustration in load development, which is when I bothered to switch to TAC since I was already reworking things. The manufacturer lists a maximum load for 223 Rem. with the 77 SMK of 23.4 grains, listed at 2759 fps and 54,500 psi. For the 5.56mm load they list a maximum of 24.8 grains and 61,500 psi at 2902 fps in a 24" barrel. With the 20" I get an average of 2877 fps with 24.8 grains and 2904 fps with 25.0 grains, with only the occasional ejector swipe at 24.8 grains. My present load is 24.3 grains and nets 2804 fps with a SD of 9. As before, case life is good enough with LC brass, no ejector swipes and the primers look nice and round with no cratering. |
|
Quoted:
Pretty much all the data I've seen maxes out around 2750, even with a 24" test barrel as with Ramshot's max TAC load in 223. They give a 5.56 max load of TAC making 2902 from a 24". Spec on Mk 262 is 2750ish out of a 18 inch SPR I think.... So getting 2800 out of a 20 isn't too out of the realm... but that 2900 is cookin. 
|
|
I guess I'm the odd guy out, I tend to favor AA2520 for heavy bullets in the 5.56, I get both good accuracy and velocities with it...as for temp stability, I don't worry about it much. I don't run hot loads, and it don't get that cold around here.
Now if I could just find some, down to my last half pound. |
|
Quoted:
2900 from a 77 in a 20" ? Krieger cut rifling give you a boost? Pretty much all the data I've seen maxes out around 2750, even with a 24" test barrel as with Ramshot's max TAC load in 223. They give a 5.56 max load of TAC making 2902 from a 24". Quoted:
Quoted:In a 20" Krieger I'm getting a bit over 2800 fps from 24.3 grains of TAC in LC cases and CCI BR-4 primers. I get better than half-MOA with this load. I ran the load up to 2900 fps. 2900 from a 77 in a 20" ? Krieger cut rifling give you a boost? Pretty much all the data I've seen maxes out around 2750, even with a 24" test barrel as with Ramshot's max TAC load in 223. They give a 5.56 max load of TAC making 2902 from a 24". Kriegers pick up some velocity after about a 100 rounds or so. |
|
Quoted:
Spec on Mk 262 is 2750ish out of a 18 inch SPR I think.... So getting 2800 out of a 20 isn't too out of the realm... but that 2900 is cookin. Quoted:
Quoted:
Pretty much all the data I've seen maxes out around 2750, even with a 24" test barrel as with Ramshot's max TAC load in 223. They give a 5.56 max load of TAC making 2902 from a 24". Spec on Mk 262 is 2750ish out of a 18 inch SPR I think.... So getting 2800 out of a 20 isn't too out of the realm... but that 2900 is cookin. My SPR averaged 2830 fps with Mk262, thus my satisfaction with 2800 fps in my AR. |
|
Quoted:
Kriegers pick up some velocity after about a 100 rounds or so. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:In a 20" Krieger I'm getting a bit over 2800 fps from 24.3 grains of TAC in LC cases and CCI BR-4 primers. I get better than half-MOA with this load. I ran the load up to 2900 fps. 2900 from a 77 in a 20" ? Krieger cut rifling give you a boost? Pretty much all the data I've seen maxes out around 2750, even with a 24" test barrel as with Ramshot's max TAC load in 223. They give a 5.56 max load of TAC making 2902 from a 24". Kriegers pick up some velocity after about a 100 rounds or so. It apparently doesn't stop there. 
|
|
Quoted:
Since Krieger came up, 22.3 grains of H4895 pushes 77 Noslers 2805 fps in my 26" Man, that's a lot of barrel, but it's always good to see numbers. Any chance folks could post up velocities and standard deviations or down range performance (even anecdotal) and barrel length for their loads? Reference for 77s is always good for future experimentation. |
|
Quoted: Man, that's a lot of barrel, but it's always good to see numbers. Any chance folks could post up velocities and standard deviations or down range performance (even anecdotal) and barrel length for their loads? Reference for 77s is always good for future experimentation. Sure thing. LC brass, CCI 41s, 23.5 gr RE-15 out of a Colt 6720 (16" barrel), 59 degrees at 580ft Velocity: 2621 Extreme Spread: 11fps for 10 rounds. This is the lowest extreme spread I've ever achieved for a rifle cartridge to date. All the RE15 loads that I tested that day were in the mid to low teens. It may not be the highest velocity but it's consistent. Alliant lists 24.1gr as the maximum charge. |
|
Quoted:
Sure thing. LC brass, CCI 41s, 23.5 gr RE-15 out of a Colt 6720 (16" barrel), 59 degrees at 580ft Velocity: 2621 Extreme Spread: 11fps for 10 rounds. This is the lowest extreme spread I've ever achieved for a rifle cartridge to date. All the RE15 loads that I tested that day were in the mid to low teens. It may not be the highest velocity but it's consistent. Alliant lists 24.1gr as the maximum charge. Quoted:
Quoted:
Man, that's a lot of barrel, but it's always good to see numbers. Any chance folks could post up velocities and standard deviations or down range performance (even anecdotal) and barrel length for their loads? Reference for 77s is always good for future experimentation. Sure thing. LC brass, CCI 41s, 23.5 gr RE-15 out of a Colt 6720 (16" barrel), 59 degrees at 580ft Velocity: 2621 Extreme Spread: 11fps for 10 rounds. This is the lowest extreme spread I've ever achieved for a rifle cartridge to date. All the RE15 loads that I tested that day were in the mid to low teens. It may not be the highest velocity but it's consistent. Alliant lists 24.1gr as the maximum charge. That is hard to beat. Damn. I was getting similar consistency from my N140 loads which were supposed to be running 2600 fps. They were making 2700 in my barrel and ended up around 2760 after a while. That's when I decided to play with TAC and get rid of the metering issues. That, and I shoot 77s to 1k yards, so I wanted fast if I could get it with good accuracy. |
|
Quoted:
22.2g H335 LC cases 77gr Nosler CC Wolf primers 2.350" OAL 1.750" trim 2650 fps Remington 700 20" Brux 1-8" I had to look up the data for H335, but it seems to run right along with TAC for 223 Rem loads. I inherited some and was curious about it standing in if I were to run short in TAC. |
|
Quoted:
I'm essentially shooting Mod0 and you're shooting Mod1.  Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
24.3 grs TAC LC 05 cases 77gr Nosler CC 20" Brux 1-8" 2825, SD of 10 or 12, IIRC. Imagine that. I'm essentially shooting Mod0 and you're shooting Mod1. Indeed. I've carried both, depending on which deployment. Couldn't tell the difference. |
|
Quoted:
I had to look up the data for H335, but it seems to run right along with TAC for 223 Rem loads. I inherited some and was curious about it standing in if I were to run short in TAC. Quoted:
Quoted:
22.2g H335 LC cases 77gr Nosler CC Wolf primers 2.350" OAL 1.750" trim 2650 fps Remington 700 20" Brux 1-8" I had to look up the data for H335, but it seems to run right along with TAC for 223 Rem loads. I inherited some and was curious about it standing in if I were to run short in TAC. Hodgdon shows a max load of 22.6g of H335 which I loaded with no pressure signs out of my bolt action so I might try to push a few more tenths of a grain to see if I can get a little more speed. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 77gr SMK Powder Choice (Page 1 of 2)
Armory Sponsor