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Posted: 2/10/2013 6:38:14 AM EDT
I changed over from 9mm to .45 last night and encountered a problem I've never had before. This started happening about 2 rounds out of 5 during my initial run off:
First, my setup: Hornady LNL AP, Lee 4 die carbide set, very clean mixed brass, Hornady 230 grain XTP. Initially I was attempting to set my bullet seat die to make a small roll crimp, because I have the old style wire finished cartridge ejector and have not converted to the new style. The old wire ejector generally interferes with the taper crimp die when it protrudes below the die head. I backed off the seating die but that did not help much, if any. I have my expander die basically bottomed out and am belling the case as much as it allows me too. (Maybe that's the problem, too much bell and the case mouth is sometimes catching the seating die? I'll try backing that off after this post) Just wondering if there are any other ideas or experiences with this happening. |
| It was too much belling. Something I should have seen easily last night but it was late and I was tired. The bell mouth on some of the cartridges was catching the ID of the seating die. I immediately assumed it was the projectile catching the case mouth and not the die, and just cranked the expander down as far as I could go, which didn't help. |
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It looks like the mouth of the case is pushed INSIDE the case which means the bullet pulled it in = not enough bell.
If it was belled too much and the die grabbed it, the mouth would be on the OUTSIDE of the case. I say bell a little more, so that the bullet barely starts to seat inside. |
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It looks like the mouth of the case is pushed INSIDE the case which means the bullet pulled it in = not enough bell. If it was belled too much and the die grabbed it, the mouth would be on the OUTSIDE of the case. I say bell a little more, so that the bullet barely starts to seat inside. I understand what you're saying, but it's not pulled in. It was pushed down. Bad photo to see the edge of the mouth. It crinkled in at the case wall, but after physically watching the entrance to the seating die I witnessed the case mouth catching the opening. I believe it was happening where the case, when sized, grew in length unevenly, that longer leg was being belled out drastically more than the few examples I belled, and that was why it would happen 1 in 3 or 2 in 5 or so rather than every case. ETA: if I was trimming cases after sizing this wouldn't have occurred since I would have had a square case mouth to be belled evenly across the diameter. |
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A back and forth exchange in adjectives like "lightly bell" or "crimp just enough to remove flare" come to numbers. Threads like this can and do go on for pages/days without doing anything more than frustrating OP.
A better example of problem solving/solution orientation. Sizer die sizes .45acp case mouth to 0.468. Expander sizes case mouth to 0.471, do I need more bell using a 0.451 projectile ? The math when I look at it, gives the answer. Don't even need a picture to see what's happening. Your inside ID using brass with case walls measuring 0.010 is 0.451. So I subtract 0.451 from 0.451 and get 0.000. If case was belled another 0.001 it sure would help. Could be you have a little room, 0.001/0.002 and release bullet too soon and it tips. Either scenario produces your issue as seen in picture. Everystep we do in cartridge loading requires a number or changes a number. Using math the issue would've glared at everyone by post three. Regards, dc. |
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So your belled cases looked like the pic? Yes. But what I did not notice last night, was that on the cases where the mouths were no longer quite square, the lip was protruding further in one small section, which would then catch the lip of my seating die. |
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Something I should have seen easily last night but it was late and I was tired. You're probably onto something right there. Under the same circumstances, I neglected to adequately tighten the die in the press... resulting in the die backing out ~just a little~, but not right away. Long story short, I had a batch of 45 ACP brass that I had to re-flare after properly torquing the die. It's been said that there are no 'dumb' mistakes provided that you learn from them. Since that 'oops', I've indexed my dies to the hat of the press with a small punch (peen marks) that I can verify they haven't moved any. I also index my dies & their respective rings with a Sharpie, for the same reason. I've also installed more lighting over my bench. I also make it a rule of it... no music and no tv while at the bench. I don't drink, but if I did, there'd be no booze at the bench either. All my attention and focus on the task at hand. Heck, I'll even put my phone on 'silent' and check it now and again (in between processes) |
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Quoted:
A back and forth exchange in adjectives like "lightly bell" or "crimp just enough to remove flare" come to numbers. Threads like this can and do go on for pages/days without doing anything more than frustrating OP. A better example of problem solving/solution orientation. Sizer die sizes .45acp case mouth to 0.468. Expander sizes case mouth to 0.471, do I need more bell using a 0.451 projectile ? The math when I look at it, gives the answer. Don't even need a picture to see what's happening. Your inside ID using brass with case walls measuring 0.010 is 0.451. So I subtract 0.451 from 0.451 and get 0.000. If case was belled another 0.001 it sure would help. Could be you have a little room, 0.001/0.002 and release bullet too soon and it tips. Either scenario produces your issue as seen in picture. Everystep we do in cartridge loading requires a number or changes a number. Using math the issue would've glared at everyone by post three. Regards, dc. As a machinist I generally agree with you. In some cases, simple dimensions to not tell the whole story. Further inspection of my seating die shows that the chamfered ID where the casing enters the die has a surface finish I would be hard pressed to call 250. What is (was) happening was the slight difference in bell diameter relative to case length, combined with minute misalignment between the die position relative to the shell plate, caused a stack of dimensions that allowed the longer bell to catch on the chamfer, which grabbed and began to collapse the case before the bullet was fully supported by the seat plug. I've reduced my bell to just enough, and polished that chamfer to keep the case wall from catching, and am now having zero issues. Thank you all for your help. |
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http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/Cases/P8040300.jpg Case of left sized, no bell. Right side both are belled. You want just enough bell for a bullet to sit on top of the case, far right. Jacketed or cast bullet will use the same bell. Get an M-die for lead bullets. It has a longer undersize nose and a smoother bell area. You often need to seat and 'de-bell' (taper crimp) separately with lead bullets to prevent shaving. |
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There was a truck load of math in that post and as a machinists you know this. Calipers and micrometers are our friends. dc. Yes. I don't mean to dismiss that fact. Only that measuring the diameters involved and calculating the clearances does not tell us anything about positional relationship or the surface finish problem as we as reloaders generally have no way of checking for true position or concentricity between two objects. When a truckload of math is involved, and we do not have a method for evaluating it mathematically either for expedience or for lack of the ability, we do what man has always done and theorize, experiment, observe, and evaluate. Bell OD: 0.472 Wall: 0.010 Bell ID: 0.452 Seat die ID: 0.480 All that tells me is that my 0.451 projectiles have clearance for initial seating, and that the sizing die has 0.008" clearance to accept the belled case. I have no way of knowing, without measuring multiple diameters across multiple locations that occasionally in 1 spot, the bell diameter is 0.475-6, reducing my die clearance to 0.005-4, and even if I did, not knowing what the positional relationship between the shell plate and the die is, I have no way of saying that 0.005 or even 0.008 is enough diametrical clearance to allow the case to enter the die without interference. I could assume a 0.020" true position tolerance, accounting for clearance between the shell plate and the case rim, and there we have the reason for the die mouth to be chamfered 0.030" of an inch, to position the cartridge upon advance inside the allowable clearance between the shell plate and casing. Which cannot occur when the friction is too great. Something I cannot measure or evaluate without simple observation. I agree with your stance that dimensions would improve the level of feedback one gets through improving everyone's understanding of the problem. I'll make sure to include them in the future. |
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Clean your shell holder and area on top of ram where shell holder snaps in. Sometimes dirt in these areas will cause misalignment. Polish the tapered area inside taper crimp die. I first bell case mouth, then seat bullet, then taper crimp for smoother seating operation without shaving. I taper crimp necks between .472"-.473" .... |
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From your last post and details provided. You're releasing bullet too early. I have issues that new reloaders experience crop up in my operations. Sometimes what should be a quick diagnosis is brushed aside because basic trouble shooting is skipped while looking for a manufactured issue I've cooked up with all this "experience" working for me.
Sometimes I try an help in situations like yours and again "experience" overlooks the obvious and it's "fool on me." There's a mathmatical process I've learned over time to not ignore, beyond the math is technique. After math and technique are played to conclusion its time for a Google query. If this doesn't provide a solution its time to tear down a die, pm or press. It's aggravating when deep into the equipment my light comes on I've missed something simple in the math or technique department. Good Luck, dc. P.S. I see your running an AP, but another trouble shooting technique is case gaging sized brass. I've had issue with shell holder alignment, in single stage. Case gage reveals the issue PDQ. |
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I deleted this post because one of the folks here missed the point I was trying to make with it.
I have reloaded pistol rounds both ways. Belled and not belled. I never had this happened. I most always bell the cases. I load a lot of cast lead bullets it's impossible to load the ones I use without belling. I have had mixed experiences with Lee products. I compare those experiences based on related items from other manufacturers. Some people just cant fathom the fact that I may have gotten a piece of crap Lee product. It happens. I own RCBS products, Hornady products, Lyman products, Lee products, and Lord knows whatever other stuff I have picked up and used over the years. I have found that they all drop a turd occasionally. I hope this guy gets this stuff fixed. I for one am not going to dispute numbers or math with anyone here as that is pointless to his problem and only goes to boost someones ego because they have a set of numbers to post. I am an aircraft mech. So I promise you I can do math. I can read dial indicators. I can read micrometers. I can read T-guages. I can use prop protractors.... to go on is pointless. OP this edit was not directed at you in any way shape or form. My own defense mainly. I sincerely hope you find the answer to your problem. I only posted an experience that I had. Somehow it turned into something else. Good luck and don't let some of the other people get you wrapped up in diversions. |
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From your last post and details provided. You're releasing bullet too early. I have issues that new reloaders experience crop up in my operations. Sometimes what should be a quick diagnosis is brushed aside because basic trouble shooting is skipped while looking for a manufactured issue I've cooked up with all this "experience" working for me. Sometimes I try an help in situations like yours and again "experience" overlooks the obvious and it's "fool on me." There's a mathmatical process I've learned over time to not ignore, beyond the math is technique. After math and technique are played to conclusion its time for a Google query. If this doesn't provide a solution its time to tear down a die, pm or press. It's aggravating when deep into the equipment my light comes on I've missed something simple in the math or technique department. Good Luck, dc. P.S. I see your running an AP, but another trouble shooting technique is case gaging sized brass. I've had issue with shell holder alignment, in single stage. Case gage reveals the issue PDQ. What do you mean by releasing the bullet too early? Taking my hand away from it too soon? (No bullet feeder) |
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Sure you've got a bullet feeder, you're hand. Someone in another forum posted the same $28.00 dollar bullet feeder thread that's been posted in this forum. Title reading, "$28.00 bullet feeder."
One of the old timers cops a thread of his own reading, " free bullet feeder. " Then posts a picture of his left hand. I know, get to the point. Hornady bullets are the worst for pitching to the side after released. As you know, base has absolutely no bevel and base breaks sharply off bearing surface wall. I load tens of thousands of Hornady jacketed every year for IDPA and NRA Action. When loading Hornady bullets I'm tempted to order a Mr. Bullet Feeder just for these bullets. Other than being pinched between bullet and die base every couple dozen rounds, caused from failure to coordinate finger movement with press speed. If it weren't for competition loads I wouldn't bother with most jacketed pistol bullets, let alone bullets like XTP. Normally, I'm a low drag, low speed press operator, loading lead for pistol. The second I saw your picture I had a pretty good idea your issue was letting go too soon. I have to hold those bullets right up to the point die base pinches skin between base and bullet ogive. This isn't the only possibility of what's going on. But, it's a good possibility of what's happening, based on my experience with Hornady bullets. dc. P.S. Pretty girls are a liability in the loading area. I've got a habit of having index finger on top of case while placing case in index. I was at my son's place and one of their friends stopped by. I heard her talking to daughter-in-law. I try to keep my head down and eyes on my boots when such distractions are in the same room at half my age, especially the kid's friends. So, I kept to myself in son's reloading room, sizing .223. I'd just placed a case in shellholder, left index finger on top of case mouth, right hand on press handle. Then behind me, comes a hi ! I turn and in my excitement caused from the beautiful distraction she is, even in full Army uniform. Without a thought, as I say. " Well Hello." Right hand drops press handle without regard to position of left index finger and through the quick, down at nail base a decapping pin goes completely through two layers of skin. 
Let us know if this solves the issue, dc. |
| After polishing the chamfer of the seater and and backing off the expander I loaded 700 cartridges and had one more instance as pictured, which could very well been the result of what you describe. I had gotten pretty good at dropping the bullet into the bell, square, and running it in without guiding it. |
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