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Posted: 1/31/2013 8:49:26 AM EDT
| I have been looking to get into reloading and studying a lot of videos and websites. I have decided to go with a progressive since i will mostly be loading pistol ammunition and some 5.56. I know that case length is important, but I see that on the progressive presses you deprime and size on station 1. So at what point do you trim the cases? is this something that just has to be done so many firings or should you check every single piece of brass? It wouldnt make since to me to trim the case prior to sizing since that could change the case length. |
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Quoted:
I have been looking to get into reloading and studying a lot of videos and websites. I have decided to go with a progressive since i will mostly be loading pistol ammunition and some 5.56. I know that case length is important, but I see that on the progressive presses you deprime and size on station 1. So at what point do you trim the cases? is this something that just has to be done so many firings or should you check every single piece of brass? It wouldnt make since to me to trim the case prior to sizing since that could change the case length. START HERE but to answer...trim AFTER resizing. |
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Quoted:
I have been looking to get into reloading and studying a lot of videos and websites. I have decided to go with a progressive since i will mostly be loading pistol ammunition and some 5.56. I know that case length is important, but I see that on the progressive presses you deprime and size on station 1. So at what point do you trim the cases? is this something that just has to be done so many firings or should you check every single piece of brass? It wouldnt make since to me to trim the case prior to sizing since that could change the case length. It's an extra step with rifle cases. I have a separate tool head set up on my 650 just for sizing and trimming brass. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I have been looking to get into reloading and studying a lot of videos and websites. I have decided to go with a progressive since i will mostly be loading pistol ammunition and some 5.56. I know that case length is important, but I see that on the progressive presses you deprime and size on station 1. So at what point do you trim the cases? is this something that just has to be done so many firings or should you check every single piece of brass? It wouldnt make since to me to trim the case prior to sizing since that could change the case length. START HERE but to answer...trim AFTER resizing. i get that you should trim after resizing, but EVERYONE i see using the progressive deprimes and sizes on station 1 and then continues to load, so are they just not trimming and checking case length. is the trimming something that is just done on the rifle cartridges, i have seen it done for both the 5.56 and the pistol cartridges this way, mostly have been looking at the pistol cartridges though |
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I'm a reloading instructor, and have been doing it for many moons. I'll try to give you some useful info.
First, for most pistol and revolver rounds, you probably won't ever have to trim them. That makes them ideal for a progressive, although I'm not a big fan of having a newbie start on a progressive. I think single stage presses are a little easier to learn on. As for rifle ammo, in an ideal world, trimming should be done right AFTER resizing, since both firing and sizing cause brass to grow. Also, if you're looking for the ultimate in precision, trimming could be done every time, but it's not necessary. For general use ammo, you just need to make sure that cases are not too long to cause a safety problem, or a problem with crimping in the desired location on a bullet. Therefore, you can usually get by trimming before resizing, or having a trimming device added into the progressive sequence. That really complicates things. My advice would be to trim before resizing, and remember to chamfer and deburr the case mouth. Then go to work on loading in the progressive. I have three presses, including a progressive. However, I almost never load rifle ammo on the progressive, as it simply shortcuts too many steps to suit me. For example, I like to check length and trim (if needed) after sizing. I also like to lube cases before sizing (required) and clean all the lube off before moving on to the next step. Also, I do not like to prime rifle cases in a progressive; I prefer a separate bench mounted priming tool. I also like to seat bullets and crimp (if desired) in two separate steps. But those are my preferences. A progressive will do rifle ammo just fine, but the steps are not as versatile and precise to suit me. For handgun ammo, different story entirely. |
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Thanks for the help, This is the most informative answer i have gotten on this! Quoted:
I'm a reloading instructor, and have been doing it for many moons. I'll try to give you some useful info. First, for most pistol and revolver rounds, you probably won't ever have to trim them. That makes them ideal for a progressive, although I'm not a big fan of having a newbie start on a progressive. I think single stage presses are a little easier to learn on. As for rifle ammo, in an ideal world, trimming should be done right AFTER resizing, since both firing and sizing cause brass to grow. Also, if you're looking for the ultimate in precision, trimming could be done every time, but it's not necessary. For general use ammo, you just need to make sure that cases are not too long to cause a safety problem, or a problem with crimping in the desired location on a bullet. Therefore, you can usually get by trimming before resizing, or having a trimming device added into the progressive sequence. That really complicates things. My advice would be to trim before resizing, and remember to chamfer and deburr the case mouth. Then go to work on loading in the progressive. I have three presses, including a progressive. However, I almost never load rifle ammo on the progressive, as it simply shortcuts too many steps to suit me. For example, I like to check length and trim (if needed) after sizing. I also like to lube cases before sizing (required) and clean all the lube off before moving on to the next step. Also, I do not like to prime rifle cases in a progressive; I prefer a separate bench mounted priming tool. I also like to seat bullets and crimp (if desired) in two separate steps. But those are my preferences. A progressive will do rifle ammo just fine, but the steps are not as versatile and precise to suit me. For handgun ammo, different story entirely. |
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Quoted:
Progressively reloading semi-auto pistol is a single pass through the press type of thing. For rifle, not usually. Normally we pass the brass through the resizer only first. Then do case prep off the press. Then back to the progressive, prime, charge, seat, and crimp. Some of us don't mess with the progressive for the first operation. I don't....I deprime and size on my Rock Chucker, then I don't have to buy a separate tool head for just the sizer. Hornady folks don't have to do that....they can just use the one die for the first operation. (no removable tool heads) Some folks who use Dillon's press-mounted trimmer, which sizes and trims on station one, can conceivably do rifle all in one pass, but most of us want to prep the brass more than that. Only long revolver cases such as .357 cases are trimmed so as to make seating a particular length and crimping into a groove possible for all your brass. Auto-pistol rounds are usually taper crimped and don't require crimping into bullets with crimping grooves. Most semiauto rounds are relatively short and don't grow much....sometimes they actuall shrink....so we never have to trim these. Long revolver rounds should be watched.....when some won't crimp in the groove time to trim. IMO always trim after sizing .... unless you want problems.....if 40 years of experience is anything. |
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right now i only plan on reloading 45 auto, I dont really see myself reloading revolver ammo as i havent ever owned one, and dont really plan on owning one. but who knows some day I may. Hopefully by then i will be a little more knowledgable on the subject Quoted:
Quoted:
Progressively reloading semi-auto pistol is a single pass through the press type of thing. For rifle, not usually. Normally we pass the brass through the resizer only first. Then do case prep off the press. Then back to the progressive, prime, charge, seat, and crimp. Some of us don't mess with the progressive for the first operation. I don't....I deprime and size on my Rock Chucker, then I don't have to buy a separate tool head for just the sizer. Hornady folks don't have to do that....they can just use the one die for the first operation. (no removable tool heads) Some folks who use Dillon's press-mounted trimmer, which sizes and trims on station one, can conceivably do rifle all in one pass, but most of us want to prep the brass more than that. Only long revolver cases such as .357 cases are trimmed so as to make seating a particular length and crimping into a groove possible for all your brass. Auto-pistol rounds are usually taper crimped and don't require crimping into bullets with crimping grooves. |
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Quoted:i get that you should trim after resizing, but EVERYONE i see using the progressive deprimes and sizes on station 1 and then continues to load, so are they just not trimming and checking case length. is the trimming something that is just done on the rifle cartridges, i have seen it done for both the 5.56 and the pistol cartridges this way, mostly have been looking at the pistol cartridges though
I load .223 on my Dillon RL550B, a progressive machine, with an RCBS X-die installed. Here is how I do it: 1: Deprime with a universal decapping die on a Single Stage press. 2: Trim(refer to directions RCBS supplies for the X-die). 3: Run through Dillon with a RCBS X-Die in station 1, loading as normal. 4: After firing this brass, you do not need to ever trim it again, just pass it through the X-die. Be sure to keep track of you brass so you know which has already been 1x trimmed. |
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Go to top of the page to Tutorials. Read the 4 part series "loading 223". Read all 4 parts, explains the whole process with lots of pics. Hot link posted eariler was only 1 part of the series and you had no way to know there was more. Do some reading at the top of the page. Your answers are there. |
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back when I had just a Dillon 550, I would trim OFF-press with a drill and the Possum Hollow Cutter/Trimmer chucked in it. And I was using the RCBS X-sizer die. I have a 650 with a casefeeder now. I also bought the Dillon RT1200 trimmer, I just haven't set it up yet.
When I finally get the Dillon RT1200 trimmer set up on another toolhead, I might just give up on using the X-die and keeping track of that brass. Rather, just run all my bottlenecked rifle brass through the casefeeder, down through the press, resize/decap, and then up into the Dillon RT1200 trimmer, and have the press spit the brass into an akrobin. then swap out to another toolhead that has the powder measure, the bullet seating die, and the crimp die. EDIT: then dump that akrobin full of resized and trimmed cases into the casefeeder. then tumble the lube off the completed rounds. case gauge each and every round. set them in those flip top ammo boxes, checking for height irregularities, mark them with a sharpie, then dump into a GI surplus ammo can. |
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Quoted:
I have been looking to get into reloading and studying a lot of videos and websites. I have decided to go with a progressive since i will mostly be loading pistol ammunition and some 5.56. I know that case length is important, but I see that on the progressive presses you deprime and size on station 1. So at what point do you trim the cases? is this something that just has to be done so many firings or should you check every single piece of brass? It wouldnt make since to me to trim the case prior to sizing since that could change the case length. Just pay attention to the silver part in this pic: 
That is the expander ball assembly on the decapping rod. See, as the case is run up into the die, the fired mouth is big enough that it slips right over that expander ball on the way up. When the case is al the way up, the die at the top squishes the mouth down. Then as case moves downward out of the die, the squished down mouth is stretched over that expander ball, which is sized just right for the bullets of that particular caliber. The fit is kinda tight and it takes some uumph to lift up on the press handle to get the ram to go down. It is during this part of the cycle that I suspect that the brass really grows. This is for full length resizing, which is what you should do for semi-auto rifles like an AR. RCBS makes a special set of resizing dies that they call "small base dies" which are supposedly even better to get semi-autos to run better without jamming. Now, for the confusing part, if you are using just a bolt action rifle, then theoretically, all you need to do is neck/mouth sizing if that brass was originally fired in your bolt gun. I have seen the benchrest guys at matches reload their own brass there at the range, and IIRC, I never once saw I guy with a trimmer. Their brass has been fire formed to their gun's chamber. All they have to do is resize the neck or mouth to get the tension just right, so there is the right amount of grip on the bullet. The neck only resizing dies can usually be had with multiple bushings in one thousandth's of an inch increments. 
which is probably what the brass colored thing is in the top pic. |
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Quoted: I have been looking to get into reloading and studying a lot of videos and websites. I have decided to go with a progressive since i will mostly be loading pistol ammunition and some 5.56. I know that case length is important, but I see that on the progressive presses you deprime and size on station 1. So at what point do you trim the cases? is this something that just has to be done so many firings or should you check every single piece of brass? It wouldnt make since to me to trim the case prior to sizing since that could change the case length. Bottleneck cases need to be processed in two passes. I use a LNLAP, but my procedure for .223 is the same as any progressive press would use. If you were using a single stage press the order and the procedures would be the same, just take longer. First pass: 1. I dump the brass in the tumbler for 20 minutes or so, to clean off the range dirt. 2. Lube the cases using Lanolin/Isopropyl Alcohol in a 1/12 mixture. Let sit for a minute to let the Isohol evaporate. 3. Run through the LNLAP press set up as follows: 4. Station 1 has Universal Decapper die. 5. Station 3 has Dillon 1200 sizer/trimmer. This is adjusted to FL size and trim to length every case. 6. Station 5 has Redding FL size die, backed out to not size, only expand using carbide expander. 7. Back into the tumber to remove the case lube. Then I inspect the cases, deburr flash holes, deburr case mouths, if needed. I'll often stop here and store the prepped cases until ready to load. Second pass: 1. Run through the LNLAP press set up as follows: 2. Station 1 has a Universal Decapping die, just to make sure the flash hole is clear. 3. Station 2 has my powder measure. 4. Station 3 has the Powder Cop die. 5. Station 4 has the bullet seating die. No crimp here. 6. Station 5 has the Lee FCD, if used. No crimp unless the bullet has a canelure, ie., FMJs. 7. Shoot. 8. Repeat. If you trim before you resize, your finished lengths will not be consistent. This is especially important if you plan on crimping your bullets. You must trim after resizing. |
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About the only way you can do it in one pass is:
1. have a Dillon 1050 with it's 7 die loactions and big toolhead equipped with the Dillon RT1200 trimmer 2. trim originally to 1.74" and use the RCBS X-die for subsequent reloadings 3. just not give a fuck about case length, reload it all, then hope to catch the long cases or long rounds when you case gauge the ammo, on the back end Hmmn... I am wondering now.... If a guy could use a universal decapper to deprime, then use a full length resizing die without the decapping rod/expander ball assembly, and maybe that would keep the brass from growing. Hmmmn.... ???????????? |
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Quoted:
6. Station 5 has the Lee FCD, if used. No crimp unless the bullet has acanelure, ie., FMJs. You can use the Lee FCD if there is no canulure. It does not roll crimp so no grove is needed. Reference I use FCD on almost everything even though I use a LNL with Hornady dies, can only help normalize neck tensions... |
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Quoted:
I'm a reloading instructor, and have been doing it for many moons. I'll try to give you some useful info. First, for most pistol and revolver rounds, you probably won't ever have to trim them. That makes them ideal for a progressive, although I'm not a big fan of having a newbie start on a progressive. I think single stage presses are a little easier to learn on. As for rifle ammo, in an ideal world, trimming should be done right AFTER resizing. since both firing and sizing cause brass to grow. Also, if you're looking for the ultimate in precision, trimming could be done every time, but it's not necessary. For general use ammo, you just need to make sure that cases are not too long to cause a safety problem, or a problem with crimping in the desired location on a bullet. Therefore, you can usually get by trimming before resizing, or having a trimming device added into the progressive sequence. That really complicates things. My advice would be to trim before resizing, and remember to chamfer and deburr the case mouth. Then go to work on loading in the progressive. I have three presses, including a progressive. However, I almost never load rifle ammo on the progressive, as it simply shortcuts too many steps to suit me. For example, I like to check length and trim (if needed) after sizing. I also like to lube cases before sizing (required) and clean all the lube off before moving on to the next step. Also, I do not like to prime rifle cases in a progressive; I prefer a separate bench mounted priming tool. I also like to seat bullets and crimp (if desired) in two separate steps. But those are my preferences. A progressive will do rifle ammo just fine, but the steps are not as versatile and precise to suit me. For handgun ammo, different story entirely. Good information overall, but I have to disagree with you on a few points. I have measured and checked too many times to count - firing does NOT increase the case length any measurable amount. Sizing does. Therefore trimming before resizing is absolutely pointless. Also disagree that having a trimming device added to the progressive sequence will complicate things. IMO it simplifies. Set the trimmer and run the brass. If a case needs trimming it gets trimmed. If not it doesn’t. And the trimming is as consistent as any other part of the progressive reloading process. |
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I don't agree that trimming before sizing is completely pointless. The original post talked about loading a little .223, but mostly handgun. It's doubtful that he wants to buy the top of the line Dillon complete with a station to mount a trimmer, plus trimmer, just for a few .223s. Most of the other progressives have only 4 or 5 die stations, so it's just a little harder to mount a trimmer, not to mention the cost of a specialized trimmer, and the inability to use the more common, less expensive trimmers. So you either have to break up the progressive sequence, or you can trim before sizing. Trim to minimum case length, and you should be good to go for about as many firings as you're going to get if loading for an AR. And as others have mentioned, the RCBS X die is a decent choice to avoid more trimming.
As for complexity, frankly, I still maintain that any progressive is a greater challenge for a newbie to learn on. To get everything adjusted so that completed ammo comes out with all dimensions correct is difficult enough for a newbie, and more so if all the steps need to be set up for a single stoke. Besides, I can't imagine not having a single stage press on hand. It's the best way to learn, and useful for so many loading tasks. I completely agree that sizing is the cause of most case stretching, but lubing the inside of case necks and carbide expander buttons can go a long way toward minimizing it. And I wouldn't move on to powder dropping or bullet seating without first removing the case lube in the neck. That brings me back to my original point. Either trim first, or break up the progressive sequence, or bite the bullet and spend the big bucks for a high volume progressive with a specialized trimmer. |
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