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Posted: 12/11/2012 1:22:23 PM EDT
How do these look? 450 templaq on the outside of the case. Too much, Not enough, or just right?
Update! Slowed it down a little bit. Turned off the lights and i could see the neck turning slightly orange. I am around 4 seconds now. These new pics are of the time turned down. The really clean one is a piece of Winchester out of the batch I hope to anneal. There is very little color change at all but you can see the faint line where the others have a more defined line. The inside of the case mouth there is 650 templaq. 
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The way I teach to anneal .223 is fail proofed. Get a bucket of water, torch and .40 S&W case, unsized, spent primer in. Fire up torch, dip .40 brass in water, insert .223 case head inside .40 brass. Turn off lights, place case mouth to shoulder in flame, turning .40 case back and forth for even heat. When case mouth just begins to glow, turn .40 case upside down in water. 223 brass is quenched and .40 case now has a water barrier for next piece of .223. Processes 4-5 a minute, easily.
What I see in pictures looks like scrap brass now. Way too hot. |
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1911smith, with all due respect, if you heat the 223 case mount just begins to glow, you have already over annealed the brass. I got this tip from the guy who build and sells the BenchSource Annealer. On the BenchSource, the best anneal is done by dialing the annealing time up 0.2 seconds at a time until you see the glow red in a dark room. You then dial back 0.2 seconds to get the no glow and perfect anneal. |
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1911smith, with all due respect, if you heat the 223 case mount just begins to glow, you have already over annealed the brass. I got this tip from the guy who build and sells the BenchSource Annealer. On the BenchSource, the best anneal is done by dialing the annealing time up 0.2 seconds at a time until you see the glow red in a dark room. You then dial back 0.2 seconds to get the no glow and perfect anneal.
I think you missed the part about lights being off, room dark. As in the only light in the room is torch. If lights were on there would be zero evidence of glow. Zero, nada, none. In fact brass has barely begun to change color and anything less I would not consider annealed. |
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1911smith, with all due respect, if you heat the 223 case mount just begins to glow, you have already over annealed the brass. I got this tip from the guy who build and sells the BenchSource Annealer. On the BenchSource, the best anneal is done by dialing the annealing time up 0.2 seconds at a time until you see the glow red in a dark room. You then dial back 0.2 seconds to get the no glow and perfect anneal.
You can only do that with an automated system...by hand, you need to have some constant visual indicator to the temp...deep soft red in a dark room is about the only way to do that by hand. |
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1911smith - Actually I didn’t. As mentioned in my post "glow red in a dark room”. That glow I was told meant the brass was already over annealed. Abizdafuzz – you are correct about the need for an automated system, but regardless of which way you do it, if you are annealing just to prevent neck splits that is probably OK, but if you are reloading for precision rifle i.e. to get consistent neck tension then over annealing is bad regardless of which way you do it.
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I knew there would be rebuttal and I don't believe in firing all my facts in one post. I've visited with the guy who owns Bench Source annealing machines, multiple times, his phone number is saved in the phone I'm pecking on right now. He's using two torches for a longer flame duration than I use and he's using a lot more heat. So, something isn't adding up here. Due respect intended.
dc. |
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Non-contact infrared thermometers will soon take the guess work out of brass temperature in the annealing process.
http://www.amazon.com/Kintrex-IRT0421-Non-Contact-Thermometer-Targeting/dp/B0017L9Q9C/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1355286931&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=cooking+meat+non-contact+thermometer The best validation of proper annealing is still by hardness test (Vickers Diamond Point) or photomicrography of brass grain structure. The .mil has published the diamond point high and low values for the properly prepared 5.56 x 45mm case. The DPH hardness of the neck, just ahead of the shoulder should read between 90 and 115. 
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I knew there would be rebuttal and I don't believe in firing all my facts in one post. Wait, what? You don't believe in giving all the facts in one post? To what purpose? Bait, to string people along, for the purpose of an aha moment or win? Any other relevant secrets you're holding in reserve here? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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The lower 2/3 of your cases look good but your still getting the neck/shoulder area to hot, you want to see the brass barley change colors in that area.
Try stopping as soon as the 650 degree Tempilaq inside the necks starts to melt, don't wait until it's completely melted. Also you DON'T want to let the neck glow any shade of red even in the dark if you can help it. The good news is even over annealed brass is still usable as long as the lower half didn't get over annealed, it may not have as much neck tension as it should and may not be as accurate but it will still be usable. This is what properly annealed brass should look like, but depending on how shiny the brass is before annealing the finished color can vary a bit. 
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Quoted: I knew there would be rebuttal and I don't believe in firing all my facts in one post. I've visited with the guy who owns Bench Source annealing machines, multiple times, his phone number is saved in the phone I'm pecking on right now. He's using two torches for a longer flame duration than I use and he's using a lot more heat. So, something isn't adding up here. Due respect intended. dc. Not a problem 1911smith. This is how he taught me how to do it with the BenchSource over the phone and just passing on the advice. Tell me what he says, it would be useful to clarify. I am no expert on this but my thought is he would be. |
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The lower 2/3 of your cases look good but your still getting the neck/shoulder area to hot, you want to see the brass barley change colors in that area. Try stopping as soon as the 650 degree Tempilaq inside the necks starts to melt, don't wait until it's completely melted. Also you DON'T want to let the neck glow any shade of red even in the dark if you can help it. The good news is even over annealed brass is still usable as long as the lower half didn't get over annealed, it may not have as much neck tension as it should and may not be as accurate but it will still be usable. This is what properly annealed brass should look like, but depending on how shiny the brass is before annealing the finished color can vary a bit. http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu173/earnest013/Reloading%20equipment/SAM_0999.jpg i just ran some test 308's last night and they look somewhat like your pics or just a little less discoloration and i was running them for 4 seconds which is about 1 second past 750 tempilak melting. but my cases were all wet tumbled and polished. i ran a few in the dark and the neck just got a slight tint of red to it before it moved. I am droping in water right after they are annealed. |
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LOL,
This is why I haven't posted. It says "Annealing experts". I have read a lot of technical reports on this. To do it RIGHT is just way beyond the normal persons capabilities. I pretty much do it the same way as 1911smith all though I choose to cool mine differently but have always gotten good results. I assume most of us do over do it by using this simple method but it seems slightly overdoing it does not hurt. BTW: Over doing it makes the brass softer which in turn lessons neck tension at the very least. Oh. The OP's brass is more than slightly over done. That's just my non expert opinion. |
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The lower 2/3 of your cases look good but your still getting the neck/shoulder area to hot, you want to see the brass barley change colors in that area. Try stopping as soon as the 650 degree Tempilaq inside the necks starts to melt, don't wait until it's completely melted. Also you DON'T want to let the neck glow any shade of red even in the dark if you can help it. The good news is even over annealed brass is still usable as long as the lower half didn't get over annealed, it may not have as much neck tension as it should and may not be as accurate but it will still be usable. This is what properly annealed brass should look like, but depending on how shiny the brass is before annealing the finished color can vary a bit. http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu173/earnest013/Reloading%20equipment/SAM_0999.jpg i just ran some test 308's last night and they look somewhat like your pics or just a little less discoloration and i was running them for 4 seconds which is about 1 second past 750 tempilak melting. but my cases were all wet tumbled and polished. i ran a few in the dark and the neck just got a slight tint of red to it before it moved. I am droping in water right after they are annealed. That sounds about right, it's OK to run them through for a second time if you think they need it. You can also go to using one torch instead of two and increase the time in the flame, that will give you a little more color change without worry of overheating the brass so fast. I use my teeth as a hardness tester, if I can't easily bend the case mouth with my teeth the brass is to hard and needs annealing, I then anneal the brass until it's easily bent by biting it. You can get a good feel for the hardness of the brass this way, just make sure the brass is clean before sticking it in your mouth. ;-) EWP |
| These are some older cases I had lying around. They are clean but they have gotten dull over time. I will try with the lights off tonight. My flame is changing color at the very end of my annealing. I am using the same process as bigdawg so he will be the most help to me. Thanks for the info. I will keep you posted tonight. |
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The lower 2/3 of your cases look good but your still getting the neck/shoulder area to hot, you want to see the brass barley change colors in that area. Try stopping as soon as the 650 degree Tempilaq inside the necks starts to melt, don't wait until it's completely melted. Also you DON'T want to let the neck glow any shade of red even in the dark if you can help it. The good news is even over annealed brass is still usable as long as the lower half didn't get over annealed, it may not have as much neck tension as it should and may not be as accurate but it will still be usable. This is what properly annealed brass should look like, but depending on how shiny the brass is before annealing the finished color can vary a bit. http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu173/earnest013/Reloading%20equipment/SAM_0999.jpg i just ran some test 308's last night and they look somewhat like your pics or just a little less discoloration and i was running them for 4 seconds which is about 1 second past 750 tempilak melting. but my cases were all wet tumbled and polished. i ran a few in the dark and the neck just got a slight tint of red to it before it moved. I am droping in water right after they are annealed. That sounds about right, it's OK to run them through for a second time if you think they need it. You can also go to using one torch instead of two and increase the time in the flame, that will give you a little more color change without worry of overheating the brass so fast. I use my teeth as a hardness tester, if I can't easily bend the case mouth with my teeth the brass is to hard and needs annealing, I then anneal the brass until it's easily bent by biting it. You can get a good feel for the hardness of the brass this way, just make sure the brass is clean & COOL  before sticking it in your mouth. ;-)
EWP 
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Quoted: Just don't let you dentist find out or you will be in for some lecturing !Quoted: Quoted: The lower 2/3 of your cases look good but your still getting the neck/shoulder area to hot, you want to see the brass barley change colors in that area. Try stopping as soon as the 650 degree Tempilaq inside the necks starts to melt, don't wait until it's completely melted. Also you DON'T want to let the neck glow any shade of red even in the dark if you can help it. The good news is even over annealed brass is still usable as long as the lower half didn't get over annealed, it may not have as much neck tension as it should and may not be as accurate but it will still be usable. This is what properly annealed brass should look like, but depending on how shiny the brass is before annealing the finished color can vary a bit. http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu173/earnest013/Reloading%20equipment/SAM_0999.jpg i just ran some test 308's last night and they look somewhat like your pics or just a little less discoloration and i was running them for 4 seconds which is about 1 second past 750 tempilak melting. but my cases were all wet tumbled and polished. i ran a few in the dark and the neck just got a slight tint of red to it before it moved. I am droping in water right after they are annealed. That sounds about right, it's OK to run them through for a second time if you think they need it. You can also go to using one torch instead of two and increase the time in the flame, that will give you a little more color change without worry of overheating the brass so fast. I use my teeth as a hardness tester, if I can't easily bend the case mouth with my teeth the brass is to hard and needs annealing, I then anneal the brass until it's easily bent by biting it. You can get a good feel for the hardness of the brass this way, just make sure the brass is clean before sticking it in your mouth. ;-) EWP  |
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Update in first post! Need more advice! those look pretty good to me I think you got it there. are you quenching in water? if so is it right after the flame? just checking because i am toying with a few ideas. No, not using water to quench. Air dry. |
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I don't quench mine at all. I let them air cool. The quenching does nothing to soften the brass, the heat does that, and once the heat is removed the softening stops. i know quenching does nothing for softening the brass i do it so too much head doesn't get to the case head. |
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I don't quench mine at all. I let them air cool. The quenching does nothing to soften the brass, the heat does that, and once the heat is removed the softening stops. i know quenching does nothing for softening the brass i do it so too much head doesn't get to the case head. I understand that and with a short case like .223 I can see where that may (seem ) to be a concern but the annealing happens when the brass gets to a certain temperature. If it don't reach that temperature it don't soften and once you remove the heat it stops because it can't retain the heat. I think you would really have to over do it to soften the case head area. I just don't see it happening if you are keeping the flame out on the neck where it should be. |
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Maybe this vid will help to show what to look for. I know it helped me set up mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdEKl-5Gwuc&feature=player_detailpage |
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Maybe this vid will help to show what to look for. I know it helped me set up mine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdEKl-5Gwuc&feature=player_detailpage That is almost exactly how mine do it. 1 second or so after the 750 melts. |
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Maybe this vid will help to show what to look for. I know it helped me set up mine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdEKl-5Gwuc&feature=player_detailpage That is almost exactly how mine do it. 1 second or so after the 750 melts. I do not have the 750 only 650. When I do anneal though you can barely tell. You can see it though. |
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