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Posted: 8/5/2012 3:43:09 PM EDT
I am struggling with the accuracy of my home cast lead bullets. I was looking at how much crimp I was putting on them and it looks like way too much. The one on the right is an uncrpimed unloaded example, the one in the middle is where I am at now, and the one on the end is where I was. The one in the middle is borderline between chambering and not it was as close as I could get it. Any less crimp results in a round that does not chamber but I think that it is just too much crimp. I am using a lee taper crimp die.
Here is a loaded round. 
Bullets are sized to .452 and lubed with Lee liquid Alox. I am shooting them out of a Lone Wolf Distb. barrell. |
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Did you try a functional test?
The rounds that don't gage or chamber don't count at all. Those just don't work period. But... the ones that do gage and chamber are worth the test. It does not appear to be over crimped in the photo. The picture doesn't really say much since it looks like it should chamber. It does look okay from that view, but I would not hesitate to function check the load before I ran off thousands of them. The taper crimp die is fairly gentle and more forgiving than the typical types. If the case lengths get really long, you will need to check a few to make sure you still like the idea of not trimming. You can always trim of the brass is way off and that helps reduce the uncertainty in the crimp. |
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Yeah I tried several of them and they are all over the damn target. As far as cycling the pistol they do so pretty well they just don't hit where I would like them too. I am concerend with the way the crimp die is deforming the bullet that cannot be good for accuracy. Is it possible that the bullet is just too soft, I am using range scrap only.
ETA: I get leading all the way down the barrel. |
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What are you sizing your bullets to? Says he sized to 0.452" But that leading all the way down the bbl sounds wrong and isn't going to help with group size. Sounds like the crimp isn't the only issue. +100 The OP needs to post a lot more info to correctly diagnose his problem. The 45 acp is very easy to get good accuracy with cast bullets. 11 to 12 brenell is all it requires for decent results with target velocity loads. Crimp is very simple to set. Adjust it down just enough to remove the bell mouth. No more. THE LEADING IS YOUR ACCURACY PROBLEM. My guess is either your bullets are too soft or your load is too hot. I use the same lube you do. I use the tumble lube bullet in my 45 but I use a "regular" cast bullet in my .357 with the a-lox and it works great. Please post you load data and if you can your bullet hardness. BTW: I don't size my cast bullets unless they are more than .005" over groove diameter in which case something was wrong and they need melted down anyway. I go with the Bigger Is Better when it comes to cast. The proof is what is on the target and what is NOT (leading) in the barrel. BTW: I double lube bullets that are not "tumble lube" design. You also have to lube before AND after sizing. |
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So what are you guys thinking, I am all out of ideas except that my alloy is too soft or LLA is not a good choice.
ETA: I don't have the means to check the hardness and I have been testing with 4.5 to 5.0 gn of bullseye, universal, and HP-38. I stay between the min and max listed in the loading manuls. |
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OK it's not your load. I shoot the 200gr SWC TL with 5.0gr Bullseye. In your photo of the bullets did you remove the lube on the far right bullet for the photo? Also same question for the photo of the loaded round.
I'm trying to help and you go offline. Do this: Put your bullets in a plastic bowl. Squeeze on some A-Lox. Put lid on bowl and tumble bullets. They should be totally covered with the lube. The groove should be filled. Lay them out on wax paper and let them dry over night. I have accelerated drying with a heat gun or out in sun (keep a dust cover over them, something that can breath). When they are done drying they should be ALL BROWN. Lube them twice if you think they need it. If that don't work your alloy may be too soft but that is ok too. You can go down to 3.7gr Bullseye. This is the starting load for Hornady's 200 SWC which is a pure lead swaged bullet. There is nothing softer than that. I'm on night shift and got to hit the sack. Let us know what you find out. Motor1 OK, Got some sleep. I want to add. Bullseye is NOT a dangerous powder to UNdercharge. If you go too light one of 2 things will happen. 1) It will not work the action. 2) It will leave the bullet in the barrel. #1 will happen WAY BEFORE #2. |
A lee factory crimp die may size a lead bullet smaller in diameter, leading your barrel with poor accuracy.Lees standard seating dies taper crimp then turn into a roll crimp. The problem may not be the crimp. Seating the bullet a little deeper may let it chamber better.   See more here
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Yeah I tried several of them and they are all over the damn target. As far as cycling the pistol they do so pretty well they just don't hit where I would like them too. I am concerend with the way the crimp die is deforming the bullet that cannot be good for accuracy. Is it possible that the bullet is just too soft, I am using range scrap only. ETA: I get leading all the way down the barrel. By range scrap, do you mean led out of jacketed bullets, .22's, and other lead bullets? If so, then your alloy is to soft and causing the leading. The lead in jacketed bullets is basically pure lead and needs to be alloyed with something harder. |
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Yeah I tried several of them and they are all over the damn target. As far as cycling the pistol they do so pretty well they just don't hit where I would like them too. I am concerned with the way the crimp die is deforming the bullet that cannot be good for accuracy. Is it possible that the bullet is just too soft, I am using range scrap only. ETA: I get leading all the way down the barrel. By range scrap, do you mean led out of jacketed bullets, .22's, and other lead bullets? If so, then your alloy is to soft and causing the leading. The lead in jacketed bullets is basically pure lead and needs to be alloyed with something harder. Simply not true. Yes a harder alloy is preferred but pure lead can be used. How do I know? I do it. 8bhn is pretty much pure lead hardness and I cast 158gr .359" SWC at 8bhn. Lube them with A-Lox and load them in .357 magnum cases with 3.5gr Bullseye. They shoot fine and don't lead the 4 1/2" barrel of my Ruger Blackhawk. And this is not a "tumble lube" bullet just the standard Lee mould. The only way Lee "pistol" FCD can size down your bullet is if it is way too big to start with or you have it adjusted down too far. It is no different than any other taper crimp die it just has a carbide ring in the bottom (shell holder side) that will bump down any bulge or other oversize condition. Believe me, it has to be pretty big for that ring to hit anything. I've loaded .360" diameter bullets in 9mm and they still did not contact the ring. All ran through my semi auto without any problem. |
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OK it's not your load. I shoot the 200gr SWC TL with 5.0gr Bullseye. In your photo of the bullets did you remove the lube on the far right bullet for the photo? Also same question for the photo of the loaded round. Yes I removed so it is easier to see the mark the crimp die is leaving. I'm trying to help and you go offline. Sorry I was at work on lunch they frown if use internet for personal stuff in their time. Do this: Put your bullets in a plastic bowl. Squeeze on some A-Lox. Put lid on bowl and tumble bullets. They should be totally covered with the lube. The groove should be filled. Lay them out on wax paper and let them dry over night. I have accelerated drying with a heat gun or out in sun (keep a dust cover over them, something that can breath). When they are done drying they should be ALL BROWN. Lube them twice if you think they need it. If that don't work your alloy may be too soft but that is ok too. You can go down to 3.7gr Bullseye. This is the starting load for Hornady's 200 SWC which is a pure lead swaged bullet. There is nothing softer than that. I'm on night shift and got to hit the sack. Let us know what you find out. I will relube some of them and see what happens. I should be trying to fill the groove with alox? Motor1 OK, Got some sleep. I want to add. Bullseye is NOT a dangerous powder to UNdercharge. If you go too light one of 2 things will happen. 1) It will not work the action. 2) It will leave the bullet in the barrel. #1 will happen WAY BEFORE #2. |
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Yeah I tried several of them and they are all over the damn target. As far as cycling the pistol they do so pretty well they just don't hit where I would like them too. I am concerend with the way the crimp die is deforming the bullet that cannot be good for accuracy. Is it possible that the bullet is just too soft, I am using range scrap only. ETA: I get leading all the way down the barrel. By range scrap, do you mean led out of jacketed bullets, .22's, and other lead bullets? If so, then your alloy is to soft and causing the leading. The lead in jacketed bullets is basically pure lead and needs to be alloyed with something harder. I am using spent bullets that I picked up off of the ground and melting the lead out of the jackets. |
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The picture clearly shows too heavy crimp,,, which in turn will reduce the diameter of the bullet at the forward drive band.. thus the bullet is only griping with rear drive band, and bore riding with the front..
Had a fella pull similar stunt with the SAECO 125's in 9mm, front band very thin, he crimped hard and reduced the diameter, the bullets tumbled at close range on target |
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I have never used a hardness tester. My thumb nail knows the difference after 40+ year of casting. Try a reduced load of Bullseye. Tho this still doesnt fix the crimp/chambering problem? Homemade Testers Link Quoted:
They drop between .452 and .453 usually. Is there to check hardness without one of the lee testers? |
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I agree with the others and should have posted that if you are using "pure lead" 4.5 to 5 grains of Bullseye is probably too hot. I am using 11 to 12bhn hardness bullets in the 45 with 5gr bullseye.
Like the last post stated and I did too you can back off the Bullseye until it won't function the action if needed. I suggest you find some wheel weights (getting hard to find lead ones) or get some linotype. I use linotype to raise the hardness of mine and it works great. |
| Thanks for the help I'll look around for some linotype. If I find some what is a good ratio of my lead to linotype, 50/50 60/40? I suppose that if the lead gets harder the crimp problem would resolve itself? I will load up some lower end bullyseye loads to see what happens, should have another range trip in a few weeks. |
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Thanks for the help I'll look around for some linotype. If I find some what is a good ratio of my lead to linotype, 50/50 60/40? I suppose that if the lead gets harder the crimp problem would resolve itself? I will load up some lower end bullseye loads to see what happens, should have another range trip in a few weeks. I have got linotype from 2 different sources and one was slightly harder than the other but the 45 acp is not picky. As stated earlier pure lead is around 8bhn the 45 acp works fine at 11 to 12bhn. If you do get some linotype try a 1/4 mix. That is for every pound of alloy you make 3oz of it linotype. So if you have a 10 pound pot put in 7.5 pounds of lead and 2.5 pounds of linotype. This should work if not go to a 1/3 mix. After you melt your alloy make sure you flux it. Any grey looking stuff floating on top is alloy don't scoop it out. Raise the heat a little and flux and mix it in. The only thing floating should be dust looking material. Scoop it off. I don't use wheel weights so I don't worry about too much heat. I put my Lee pot on high when mixing then turn it down to cast. Good luck and keep us informed of your progress. |
| About 1/2 pound linotype to 10 Lbs pure lead should be fine for a 45 acp. As for the chambering/crimp problem, i would check bullet diameter. If larger than .452" this may keep the round from chambering. Some guns need .451" if its a tight chamber. Best to know your barrels groove diameter before going to .451" Measure on the bullet right in front of the case mouth. This has to be about .450" If its not, seat the bullets deeper into the case, shorter COL. |
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I have never used a hardness tester. My thumb nail knows the difference after 40+ year of casting. Try a reduced load of Bullseye. Tho this still doesn't fix the crimp/chambering problem? Homemade Testers Link Quoted:
They drop between .452 and .453 usually. Is there to check hardness without one of the lee testers? That's cool you've been at it for that long. The problem is I'm a career machinist and accustomed to measuring EVERYTHING so I just had to have the tester. Another reason is I'm a penny pinching SOB (or a cheep bastard if you ask my wife) and hate to waist anything especially alloying metal that I had to buy. I cast for a few calibers and for different types of loads so I want to know how hard every batch of alloy is. There is no reason to make 16bhn bullets when 11bhn will do. 
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That's a cool chart. I guess my "pure" lead is not too pure after all because it measured 8bhn after water quenching. I think the latest wheel weights may be a bit harder too unless the guy who posted the #'s were way off on his testing. I don't think 1/2 pound linotype to 10 pounds lead is enough but it may be. The last batch of bullets I cast were 12bhn. It required between a 1/4 to 1/3 mix to get that and my "lead" is 8bhn to start with. I don't think all linotype in created equal.
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About 1/2 pound linotype to 10 Lbs pure lead should be fine for a 45 acp. As for the chambering/crimp problem, i would check bullet diameter. If larger than .452" this may keep the round from chambering. Some guns need .451" if its a tight chamber. Best to know your barrels groove diameter before going to .451" Measure on the bullet right in front of the case mouth. This has to be about .450" If its not, seat the bullets deeper into the case, shorter COL. So I should measure just right before the first driving band at the base of the nose? Would I be correct in guessing that if I harden my alloy the crimp won't mark the bullet as much? |
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So I should measure just right before the first driving band at the base of the nose? No, Right in front of the case mouth, looks like you will be measuring on the drive band. Middle bullet in photo. Would I be correct in guessing that if I harden my alloy the crimp won't mark the bullet as much? Maybe A round nose type bullet can drop from the mold to large. Seating deeper, shorter COL some times helps chambering. . If bigger than .450" it may not chamber fully. A harder bullet will not be marked as much. What crimping die are you using? Lee's standard seat & crimp die. Or Factory crimp die. Or taper crimp only die, a separate operation, after seating the bullet? 
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Water dropping hardens the alloy if there is some antimony in the alloy, as i am sure you know. Water dropping from the mould does not seem to harden as well as oven heat treating the Lyman way?? Not sure as i have no tester. You may be right on the amount of linotype needed. That's a cool chart. I guess my "pure" lead is not too pure after all because it measured 8bhn after water quenching. I think the latest wheel weights may be a bit harder too unless the guy who posted the #'s were way off on his testing. I don't think 1/2 pound linotype to 10 pounds lead is enough but it may be. The last batch of bullets I cast were 12bhn. It required between a 1/4 to 1/3 mix to get that and my "lead" is 8bhn to start with. I don't think all linotype in created equal. I buy from Rotometals. When working with scrap alloy, its hard to know what your starting with, unless you have a tester or educated thumb nail. (i changed the chart photo, same, just bigger. )
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I don't think the wife would like lead bullets in the oven so I better stick to water quenching. I should have stated the 12bhn bullets I cast last for not for a 45 acp but 10 to 12 bhn will work good with a 5gr bullseye load.
I don't know why this confusion over the Lee "factory crimp die" continues. The PISTOL FCD in auto loading (chamber on case mouth) calibers IS A TAPER CRIMP DIE. It is no different than any other taper crimp die EXCEPT it has a carbide ring in the bottom to smooth out anything that is over the max dimension in diameter. This is to assure that the round will chamber in a factory spec chamber. Don't forget. A taper crimp is on a taper. Just because you may be a little tight don't mean that the entire bullet has been squeezed down. Adjust your die to remove the bell only and you will not size your lead bullet down. Anyone who seats and crimps in 2 separate operations can tell you that the crimp on bullets is nothing more than to remove the bell. It has nothing to do with holding the bullet. Look at the bulge in the case where the bullet is seated. There is no way except for your press or a bullet puller to move that bullet. Here is a quote directly from my Hornady manual: "Little or no crimp should be used, as the 45 Auto headspaces on the mouth of the case." |
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So I should measure just right before the first driving band at the base of the nose? No, Right in front of the case mouth, looks like you will be measuring on the drive band. Middle bullet in photo. Would I be correct in guessing that if I harden my alloy the crimp won't mark the bullet as much? Maybe A round nose type bullet can drop from the mold to large. Seating deeper, shorter COL some times helps chambering. . If bigger than .450" it may not chamber fully. A harder bullet will not be marked as much. What crimping die are you using? Lee's standard seat & crimp die. Or Factory crimp die. Or taper crimp only die, a separate operation, after seating the bullet?
I seat and then crimp in a different die. I am using the Lee taper crimp die. |
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A taper crimp is on a taper. Just because you may be a little tight don't mean that the entire bullet has been squeezed down.
Correct, good post. OP is using the correct die.
Adjust your die to remove the bell only and you will not size your lead bullet down. Anyone who seats and crimps in 2 separate operations can tell you that the crimp on bullets is nothing more than to remove the bell. It has nothing to do with holding the bullet. Look at the bulge in the case where the bullet is seated. There is no way except for your press or a bullet puller to move that bullet. |
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