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Posted: 6/29/2012 4:10:20 PM EDT
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Hey Guys,
Having some trouble getting my RT1200 to trim without leaving burrs and jacking up the case mouth. All three of these cases where fired from the same rifle and are all Hornady brass. I got my 550B set up to Deprime/Resize in station 1 using Dillons Die. Station 2 is empty and then station 3 has the Size/Trim die set up to just touch the shoulder but trim to 1.750. The case on the left measured 1.754 after I resized it and was trimmed to 1.750 but is real nasty with burrs and the inside of the case mouth is jacked. The second case measured 1.751 and trimmed much cleaner. This is what I was expecting from all the cases but seems anything thing over 1.751 and they come out like the first. The third case on the right is one that was just resized and not trimmed in for reference. You can kinda see in the first pic the burrs. Their real thin on the very outside of the case mouth and I can rake them off for the most part with my finger nail. For all I know this could be how they are suppose to look but this is the first time dealing with the RT 1200 and was wanting cleaner cuts and less burrs. Things I have done to try and correct the issue. Checked the lock nuts to make sure their tight. Locked all the lock nuts with cases in the stations and the ram lifted. Checked the shell plate and it is tight. I also called and spoke with Dillon and was told burrs were ok and that the trimmer would not cut that smooth but was given advice to rotate the blade. I did rotate the blade but still the same nasty burrs on cases over 1.754 that I trimmed. I have also tried going slow leaving the case in the trimmer for longer and that didn'e help. Any advice would that could help would be great! Thanks, Kirch 
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I think I'd back off the sizing die in station 1. Just use it to knock out the primer and partially size it. Let your size / trim die do the majority of the sizing. That will cause your size / trim die to have a better grip on the case when you size / trim it and possibly help to clean up your case mouths. |
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I think I'd back off the sizing die in station 1. Just use it to knock out the primer and partially size it. Let your size / trim die do the majority of the sizing. That will cause your size / trim die to have a better grip on the case when you size / trim it and possibly help to clean up your case mouths. Ok but then I'll have to expand the neck again right? |
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Your trim die is knocking the neck back down again anyway. When I trim I have my sizing / decapping die in station one. The sizing die does do some sizing, but does not bump the shoulder. I also have the expander removed. In station 3 I have the 1200. Of course, here it sizes and trims. In station 5 I have a Lyman M die that just barely kisses the case mouth. If I don't use the M die I get shavings off FMJBTs. |
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Your trim die is knocking the neck back down again anyway. When I trim I have my sizing / decapping die in station one. The sizing die does do some sizing, but does not bump the shoulder. I also have the expander removed. In station 3 I have the 1200. Of course, here it sizes and trims. In station 5 I have a Lyman M die that just barely kisses the case mouth. If I don't use the M die I get shavings off FMJBTs. Ok sounds good and thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to try those suggestions and let you know. |
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Make sure your cutting bit isn't turned around backwards. It looks to me like yout bit isn't cutting properly. When I inspected and rotated the blade only a small portion of the blade was making contact on the case. I'm pretty sure the slant was facing the right way. I'm thinking its the trimmer and not the operator. I'll do everything I can think of first before contacting Dillon about an exchange. |
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You say you've checked shellplate. I'd make sure you recheck it. Your second case looks like only one side of the case is being trimmed and I'm thinking either a tipping shellplate or the trimmer shafty is dorked. That first case looks ugly. cCn you tell if the case is spinning in the trim die while being trimmed? If so, I'd suggest you adjust die to obtain better grip and case and hold it still during trimming step.
Anyway, this is the way I run mine on my 550. Cases are deprimed on SS, then tumbled and prepped (inspected/lubed) for resizing. Dillon trimmer in station #1, adjusted for desired shoulder bump. Probably much tighter than you have with your setup, trimming on station #3. Station #2 empty. Station #3 –– conventional resizer backed out a couple of turns so as to not affect sizing dimensions. Cases are run over expander ball and that brings the neck back up to a dimension that's not so tight. I then tumble resized cases to remove lube. It also seems to have the added benefit of cleaning up the case mouths a bit. On my 2nd toolhead I mount a Lee Universal Flaring die in station #1 to just barely kiss the case mouth. This irons out any internal micro burrs that still may be around. It also barely flares the mouth and makes seating bullets a snap. This is just a way. If you try this and your case mouths are still out of whack, then I'd call Dillon for advice and return instructions. |
| Is the motor turning clock wise ? Looking at it from the cutting blade end. If the brushes are 180 deg off the motor will turn counter clock wise. If this was the case no matter how you put the blade in it will leave a bad burr. With a sharp blade you should be getting a better cut than that. Are you using a vacuum to remove the trimmings ? If not his can also result in getting more of a burr. |
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Is the motor turning clock wise ? Looking at it from the cutting blade end. If the brushes are 180 deg off the motor will turn counter clock wise. If this was the case no matter how you put the blade in it will leave a bad burr. With a sharp blade you should be getting a better cut than that. Are you using a vacuum to remove the trimmings ? If not his can also result in getting more of a burr. How could the brushes be 180 degrees out? Don't they only go in one way? I'm asking because when I bought my RT1200 used off the EE, it left a bad burr and I found that the blade was backwards. ETA: Never mind. I understand now what you mean. I did some reading and discovered that if the end of the motor housing that holds the brushes is rotated 180 degrees relative to the field windings, the rotation will be reversed. Interesting...I never knew that. |
| take the sizing die completely out of the toolhead. Set up the die to do all or the majority of the sizing. What Lube are you using? Dont get too crazy with it either. If your wanting to de-cap on the same go around then you will need to get a de-capping die and put it in station one. Also. Like the others said. Make sure the cutter is not backwards |
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You say you've checked shellplate. I'd make sure you recheck it. Your second case looks like only one side of the case is being trimmed and I'm thinking either a tipping shellplate or the trimmer shafty is dorked. That first case looks ugly. cCn you tell if the case is spinning in the trim die while being trimmed? If so, I'd suggest you adjust die to obtain better grip and case and hold it still during trimming step. Anyway, this is the way I run mine on my 550. Cases are deprimed on SS, then tumbled and prepped (inspected/lubed) for resizing. Dillon trimmer in station #1, adjusted for desired shoulder bump. Probably much tighter than you have with your setup, trimming on station #3. Station #2 empty. Station #3 –– conventional resizer backed out a couple of turns so as to not affect sizing dimensions. Cases are run over expander ball and that brings the neck back up to a dimension that's not so tight. I then tumble resized cases to remove lube. It also seems to have the added benefit of cleaning up the case mouths a bit. On my 2nd toolhead I mount a Lee Universal Flaring die in station #1 to just barely kiss the case mouth. This irons out any internal micro burrs that still may be around. It also barely flares the mouth and makes seating bullets a snap. This is just a way. If you try this and your case mouths are still out of whack, then I'd call Dillon for advice and return instructions. Yeah I checked the shell plate twice and it's real tight. I have never ran it has tight as it is now. I did check to see if the cases were in fact spinning and they were still in the shell plate when the trimmer blade is lowered. |
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Is the motor turning clock wise ? Looking at it from the cutting blade end. If the brushes are 180 deg off the motor will turn counter clock wise. If this was the case no matter how you put the blade in it will leave a bad burr. With a sharp blade you should be getting a better cut than that. Are you using a vacuum to remove the trimmings ? If not his can also result in getting more of a burr. Now I think we are getting some where. I didn't know it could spin reverse and I'll be checking that first. I have been using a shop vac to suck out the shavings. |
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You may just find out in the end what a lot of us have. That's to just run a neck sizing die after the trimmer. I use a RCBS die. The carbide expander ball has been polished down so it just rubs the small burr off of the ID. The OD of the neck just gets kissed by the die to do the same to that burr too. The rest is taken care of when the lube is polished off the brass.
HTH |
| How old is the trimmer and blade? Additionally, what kind of vacuum system do you have in place? My initial thoughts would be (1) dull (or possible backwards) blade and/or (2) insufficient suction. I had to make some changes to my set up because I found that the vacuum hose I initially set up would kink. I now have a totally different set up with a shop vac that eliminates the issue. |
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How old is the trimmer and blade? Additionally, what kind of vacuum system do you have in place? My initial thoughts would be (1) dull (or possible backwards) blade and/or (2) insufficient suction. I had to make some changes to my set up because I found that the vacuum hose I initially set up would kink. I now have a totally different set up with a shop vac that eliminates the issue. The trimmer is brand new and 2 sides of the blade have about 10 trimmings each. The shop vac is a smaller WET/DRY vac just for this purpose. Hose had a direct line of suction while trimming. Can't wait to return home and see if the blade is in fact backward. Thanks for the suggestions. |
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Quoted: It'll also run backwards if you turn the barrel end-for-end (and install it upside-down) on reassembly.Quoted: Is the motor turning clock wise ? Looking at it from the cutting blade end. If the brushes are 180 deg off the motor will turn counter clock wise. If this was the case no matter how you put the blade in it will leave a bad burr. With a sharp blade you should be getting a better cut than that. Are you using a vacuum to remove the trimmings ? If not his can also result in getting more of a burr. How could the brushes be 180 degrees out? Don't they only go in one way? I'm asking because when I bought my RT1200 used off the EE, it left a bad burr and I found that the blade was backwards. ETA: Never mind. I understand now what you mean. I did some reading and discovered that if the end of the motor housing that holds the brushes is rotated 180 degrees relative to the field windings, the rotation will be reversed. Interesting...I never knew that. DAMHIKT. |
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Here is another question. 308 after trimming fits in the case gauge and by measurements is damn near perfect but gets stuck in the chamber. i have to mortar the rifle to get the stuck case out.
station 1- universal decapping station 2- sizer/trimmer station 3- empty station 4-rcbs resizing die to utilize sizing ball but not resizing. Ideas? |
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Quoted: I assume factory ammo and rounds not reloaded by you fit the weapon?Here is another question. 308 after trimming fits in the case gauge and by measurements is damn near perfect but gets stuck in the chamber. i have to mortar the rifle to get the stuck case out. station 1- universal decapping station 2- sizer/trimmer station 3- empty station 4-rcbs resizing die to utilize sizing ball but not resizing. Ideas? Do your rounds fit in other weapons/chambers? Just covering details..... |
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Here is another question. 308 after trimming fits in the case gauge and by measurements is damn near perfect but gets stuck in the chamber. i have to mortar the rifle to get the stuck case out. station 1- universal decapping station 2- sizer/trimmer station 3- empty station 4-rcbs resizing die to utilize sizing ball but not resizing. Ideas? Take the die out of station #4. Will it fit in the chamber now ? What type of rifle ? |
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Both factory and my hand loads fit before. This is a new trimmer to help ease my processing of brass up and make that part of reloading more enjoyable.
I will take out station #4 out when i get done watching the home run derby. DPMS LR308 Once fired mill brass thanks for yalls help! |
| I don't use the trimmer die to size the brass. That's what the carbide FL sizing die is for. If removing the die from station #4 works so be it. But if not,, put the RCBS sizing die in station #1 and the trimmer in #3. set the trimmer motor as low as it can get in the die and just use it to trim. Could be the trimmer die is not sizing the brass enough. You could also color a case with a sharpie. Then chamber it and remove. You then can see were its rubing. It sounds more like the cases are not gettinmg sized enough though. Too long in the headspace. |
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I don't use the trimmer die to size the brass. That's what the carbide FL sizing die is for. If removing the die from station #4 works so be it. But if not,, put the RCBS sizing die in station #1 and the trimmer in #3. set the trimmer motor as low as it can get in the die and just use it to trim. Could be the trimmer die is not sizing the brass enough. You could also color a case with a sharpie. Then chamber it and remove. You then can see were its rubing. It sounds more like the cases are not gettinmg sized enough though. Too long in the headspace. thanks! i will have to try this tomorrow. |
| Update; i ran it through again and it worked and not sure what the deal was with that piece but it chambers and fits in the case gauge perfectly. i just got done doing about 500 pieces and its a huge benefit. Only problem now that i have is i bent the sizing ball and spindle. Thats the 3rd time this rcbs die has done this. i even blue locktited the sizing ball on but it still comes off. |
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Your trim die is knocking the neck back down again anyway. When I trim I have my sizing / decapping die in station one. The sizing die does do some sizing, but does not bump the shoulder. I also have the expander removed. In station 3 I have the 1200. Of course, here it sizes and trims. In station 5 I have a Lyman M die that just barely kisses the case mouth. If I don't use the M die I get shavings off FMJBTs. Not to hijack, but I was trying to set up my trimmer tool head this way and I can't get the locating pin in and out if the trimmer is in station 3. How do you manage this? |
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Make sure your cutting bit isn't turned around backwards. It looks to me like yout bit isn't cutting properly. When I inspected and rotated the blade only a small portion of the blade was making contact on the case. I'm pretty sure the slant was facing the right way. I'm thinking its the trimmer and not the operator. I'll do everything I can think of first before contacting Dillon about an exchange. I'm finally back from my vacations and found time to trouble shoot my trimmer and it was the blade in backwards. Really makes me mad it got past Dillons QC and shipped to me. I wasted my free time trying to figure it out when it should have been shipped to me in perfect working order. But o well I'll still keep drinking the blue drink. Thanks for the help guys! |
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You may just find out in the end what a lot of us have. That's to just run a neck sizing die after the trimmer. I use a RCBS die. The carbide expander ball has been polished down so it just rubs the small burr off of the ID. The OD of the neck just gets kissed by the die to do the same to that burr too. The rest is taken care of when the lube is polished off the brass. HTH ReefRaider, You are right and I need to expand the case mouth after trimming on most cases. In a 550 I don't think I'll find room in station #4 for another die because the trimmer is so big. This is what I'm thinking of trying with what I have already on hand. Move my Dillon size/deprime die out of station #1 on the case prep head and switch it out with the universal decap die in station one in my loading head. Then run the Dillon size/deprime die out so it doesn't touch the shoulder and only the expander touches the case mouth. I'll then have to adjust my size/trim die to do all sizeing of the cases. I'm trying to get away from having to lube my brass durning my loading phase. Please let me know what you think about this set up and if it would work. I'm already thinking that the neck will need lube when it hits station #1 in the loading tool head. Becasue it will have not had any neck expanding, then plus the brass burrs adding resistence. Thanks, Kirch |
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Sorry if this was already covered but, here's how I think the 1200 works.
The resizing action is essential to the trim process. It needs the friction to hold the brass still to keep it from spinning in the die when the cutter engages the mouth. Best results come from trimming fired, unresized brass. ALSO... it is essential that you have the trim die threaded down as far as possible. Of course, not so far down as to bump the neck down too far. If you have any other resizing dies on your press, try positioning them AFTER the dillon trim die. eta: Another pro-tip someone else here gave me: For a brand new die, cure it with some naval jelly. 20 or 30 seconds of contact, then rinse it off. This will make a nice, hard oxide layer that will make it much more resistant to wear. Also helps to only use really clean brass. CH4D offers TiN coating with a lifetime replacement guarantee. So far, I've had good results with it. Best possible outcome would be if Dillon would start offering carbide insert trim dies. The original .223 carbide resizing die that came with my press has no discernible wear after 200k plus cases that I know of. And this is an old RL 1050 that looked well worn when I got it. |
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Make sure your cutting bit isn't turned around backwards. It looks to me like yout bit isn't cutting properly. When I inspected and rotated the blade only a small portion of the blade was making contact on the case. I'm pretty sure the slant was facing the right way. I'm thinking its the trimmer and not the operator. I'll do everything I can think of first before contacting Dillon about an exchange. I'm finally back from my vacations and found time to trouble shoot my trimmer and it was the blade in backwards. Really makes me mad it got past Dillons QC and shipped to me. I wasted my free time trying to figure it out when it should have been shipped to me in perfect working order. But o well I'll still keep drinking the blue drink. Thanks for the help guys! I'm glad to hear you have it straightened out. |
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Sorry if this was already covered but, here's how I think the 1200 works. The resizing action is essential to the trim process. It needs the friction to hold the brass still to keep it from spinning in the die when the cutter engages the mouth. Best results come from trimming fired, unresized brass. ALSO... it is essential that you have the trim die threaded down as far as possible. Of course, not so far down as to bump the neck down too far. If you have any other resizing dies on your press, try positioning them AFTER the dillon trim die. eta: Another pro-tip someone else here gave me: For a brand new die, cure it with some naval jelly. 20 or 30 seconds of contact, then rinse it off. This will make a nice, hard oxide layer that will make it much more resistant to wear. Also helps to only use really clean brass. CH4D offers TiN coating with a lifetime replacement guarantee. So far, I've had good results with it. Best possible outcome would be if Dillon would start offering carbide insert trim dies. The original .223 carbide resizing die that came with my press has no discernible wear after 200k plus cases that I know of. And this is an old RL 1050 that looked well worn when I got it. I have read that before and makes since. I'm thinking switching to my size/trim die to do all the sizeing will give me better results in both sizeing and trimming. Just expanding the neck is what I have to get figured out. |
| The way I do it is to size and trim using the Dillon trim die and then run the trimmed cases through a conventional FL die set a bit high so it resizes the neck without doing anything more to the body of the case. Running the case through the FL die removes the primer and irons out the little bit of a burr that the trimmer leaves. |
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Expanding the neck before trimming seems to me to be the best thing to do. I only run the neck sizing die after to roll the burr off thats been left from the trimmer. Tumbling the brass after will remove most of the burr. But the way I do it removes ALL of it. I would definitely do this if I was going to trim already resized brass. |
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Expanding the neck before trimming seems to me to be the best thing to do. I only run the neck sizing die after to roll the burr off that's been left from the trimmer. Tumbling the brass after will remove most of the burr. But the way I do it removes ALL of it. I would definitely do this if I was going to trim already resized brass. We are processing brass on 1050s. So we have more options than someone using a 550. I have a carbine FL sizing die in #2. I don't use the trimmer die to size. Regardless of if the trimmer die sizes or if it is done before. What leaves the burr is the blade getting a little dull. My case's don't turn in the trimmer die. In fact a case that has already been sized would be very hard to remove from the trimmer die. |
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