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Posted: 4/11/2012 9:06:24 PM EDT
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How common is it to have to adjust your dies again after all stations are in use? I initially adjust my dies by putting a round in just that station, but once all stations are engaged (particularly sizing), I find my OAL increased by as much as 0.03". The OAL is consistent once the "press load" is the same for each stroke.
Is this an issue with all presses? This drives me insane; I am OCD and work with very rigid, high precison machines all day.. i want my presses to perform similarly. Assuming mine is not broken, is there a progressive press out there that is sufficiently rigid to handle a wide range of load without serious deflection? |
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I'm OAL, OCD. Hornady AP is the tightest of my 5 progressives. Dillon 650, 550, Lee Loadmaster and Pro1000.
650 and Pro1000 are sloppy top and bottom. 0.03 is as good as it gets. Anything over 0.10 is a big deal. Under 0.05 is fine. I've shimmed and snuffed both AP and 650. AP stays within 0.03 for total OAL. 650 stays within 0.05. I'm talking straight wall pistol OAL, inevitably someone will chime in about ogive. Ogive to tip is meaningless when seating OAL off tip. |
| I have a similar problem with my LNL AP, my sizing always stays the same, but when i put a case by itself on the bullet seater part, i set it to my desired depth perfectly and repeatably, but as soon as I have a round in each of the 5 locations, my depth is definitely off again and I need to set it again with brass in all locations (its off similar to what you said, enough to get annoying to me). once I set it again, its usually good. |
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The variation on a progressive can be as much as .010" If you do a google search on shims for Hornady L N L ap you might be able to eliminate the COL variations. Theres a fix for Dillon also. Some kind of screw that keeps the die holder from moving. Make sure the thickness of the shell plate is the same at each station. How to measure, Photos Info below is from > Lee Info Overall Length (OAL) Variation
Posted by on 20 October 2011 07:43 AM There are a number of possible causes for overall length variation. One is the way it is measured. If you measure overall length from the tip of the bullet to the base of the case, remember to subtract the variation due to bullet length tolerance. The bullets will vary in length due to manufacturing tolerances (bullets with exposed lead noses are the worst in this regard) and this will add to the overall cartridge length variation. Remember that the bullet seater plug does not (or shouldn't) contact the tip of the bullet when seating, but contacts farther down the ogive. For a more accurate seating depth measurement, take the seater plug out of the bullet seating die, place it on top of the cartridge and measure from the base of the case to the top of the seater plug. Another possible cause for bullet seating depth variation is seating and crimping at the same time when trying to apply a firm crimp to untrimmed cases. Variation in case length also causes variation in the amount of crimp applied. Long cases get a heavier crimp than short ones. When seating and crimping at the same time, the crimp is formed as the bullet is seated into the case. The crimp will form sooner on a long case, and therefore the bullet will not be seated as deeply. The solution is to seat and crimp in a separate step (the Lee Factory Crimp die is good for this) and/or trim cases to a uniform length. The amount of force required to cycle a progressive press varies with the number of cases in the shell plate. When the shell plate is full, it is harder to lower the lever than when there are one or two cases present. This can lead to variation in cartridge overall length because there are different loads placed on the working parts of the press. When the shell plate is full, seating depth will be slightly long, because the load is higher and all of the clearances are taken up. With the shell plate nearly empty, the load is not great enough to squeeze out these clearances, and the seating depth is short. A potential solution for this on progressive presses is to turn the sizing die in far enough so that the carrier is stopping on the bottom of the die. This removes clearance problems when no sizing but yet seating / crimping is occurring. Take special care not to turn the die in further than to just touch the shell plate and possibly just a tad more. About 1/4th of turn more is all you want to go, turning the sizing die in too far causes other problems. |
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I forgot to specify, I am running 9mm and .380 on a LNL AP. Station 1 is sizing, two is powder through expander, three is bullet feed die, four is seating die, five is lee fcd. The OAL is very consistent (within 0.005") once I get going, it's just that I have to run two setups.. an initial and then change it once all stations are full. This is a pain for me as I often try different types of bullets and have to go through this every time.
I'll measure the shell plate, like win243xb said, and see what I get. Also, 1911smith, I know what shimming the press is, but what is "snuffing" it? Do high end presses like the dillon 1050 have this issue too? |
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I have an LnL-AP and had (have) that issue too.
If I have to change my seating depth of a different bullet, I do this: 1) put a dummy round seated to the proper length in the seating station with the seating stem backed off 2) put an unsized case so it will feed into the sizing die 3) size the case, and with the ram left all the way up, turn the stem down on the dummy & set. I then run the press and the OAL of the finished rounds are correct to within .003-.004 and usually less after I start running. I check everything, powder and OAL randomly to make sure everything is staying correct. None of the other stations (powder, bell, etc.) seem to impact the finished rounds to any meaningful degree. It took me a while to figure out through trial and error, but this procedure has worked well for me. I'm fussy and like everything to be the same, but consider myself to be realistic also. I don't think it's realistic to expect much more than +/- .0015 - .002 variation from a progressive... actually I think that's pretty darn good. Actually, I'm surprised there isn't more variation because of the bullets. For example, I loaded some 9MM a couple weeks ago at 1.160, the finished rounds I spot checked were between 1.158 and 1.161, so that's right at .003 spread, and most were at 1.159 so that's probably where it was actually set. |
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Quoted:
I forgot to specify, I am running 9mm and .380 on a LNL AP. Station 1 is sizing, two is powder through expander, three is bullet feed die, four is seating die, five is lee fcd. The OAL is very consistent (within 0.005") once I get going, it's just that I have to run two setups.. an initial and then change it once all stations are full. This is a pain for me as I often try different types of bullets and have to go through this every time. I'll measure the shell plate, like win243xb said, and see what I get. Also, 1911smith, I know what shimming the press is, but what is "snuffing" it? Do high end presses like the dillon 1050 have this issue too? I'm interested in this answer too... |
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I find that once I set up the dies to seat the bullet or whatever, I go back and check everything once all dies are set & all stations are loaded. I get a better result by having all stations loaded and THEN measure what is coming out into the bin as a final finished product. If I only measure a single stations result ( IE Bullet case re sizer or bullet seater ), with only one case in the progressive, then things change a bunch from doing my measurements singly with one round versus having all stations loaded and then measuring the finished round. This is in a 4 station 550. I have put in a shim to the toolhead and it does help. Just a thin piece of brass sheet to take out any play in the movement of the toolhead on the upstroke.
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/349532_Hornady_OAL_issue_fixed_.html&page=3&anc=3183499#i3183499
Someone will need to make link hot or simply go to page two of gateway threads. Posting from droid and linky don't likey. There's a sure way to gage whether shim is needed. Take .005 and 0.10 feeler gage. Try an insert 0.10 gage between ram and underside of shellplate base. If 0.10 fits you possibly may need shim or realign base with ram and tighten. This was my cure, that and metal shin under seater die bushing, eliminating play. Have perfected cure for Dillon 650. 550 can be improved taking most of shellplate play from either. My 550 doesn't need it. A lot of guys are using a needle bearing thrust bearing that solves powder slippage in index, takes some wobble out but distorts extractor wire. It's more like a trade, trading one issue for another. Mine uses one paper thin mylar washer and two all copper washers that fit inside extractor wire loop. I'm still a little sore from the last post where some folks took offense. Afterwards 650 was unbolted, stuffed upside-down in a box and thrown into closet. It's fixed, works fine except for all that's been heaped on top of it. Don't need anyways, single stage Hornady with auto-prime has been my go to lately. One young man in Texas emailed asking for info. Explained what he needed, he bought, installed and happy as can be. Wesley claims his 650 is +/- .03 after washers were installed. Dillon will say 0.10 is acceptable. |
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Quoted:
How common is it to have to adjust your dies again after all stations are in use? I initially adjust my dies by putting a round in just that station, but once all stations are engaged (particularly sizing), I find my OAL increased by as much as 0.03". The OAL is consistent once the "press load" is the same for each stroke. Is this an issue with all presses? This drives me insane; I am OCD and work with very rigid, high precison machines all day.. i want my presses to perform similarly. Assuming mine is not broken, is there a progressive press out there that is sufficiently rigid to handle a wide range of load without serious deflection? Yes, it's an issue with every progressive press, including shotgun presses. Make the final adjustments with all stations occupied. Bench rigidity is triply important with these presses, too. |
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Part of the problem with the LNL is the base is set on the ram and not held in place very well. The ram is a hollow tube about 2" diameter, and the base slips inside the ram for about 1" and held in place with two screws.
Not the most rigid setup in the world, but better than the Projector I have with roll pins instead of screws where you can see the base wobble... I've been tempted about epoxying the base to the ram, but it would be impossible to remove. So then, how about a built up design like the Lee 1000 or the Ammomaster press? If I were to do that and go that far, I'd want a 7 or 8 station press for a separate crimping station and case trimming station. As well as the LNL improved from the Pro-7 days, it is way past time to scrap the whole design and start over. |
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To help eliminate as much play as possible on my RL-550, I drilled 2 holes in the press (1 each on opposing sides) and threaded them with a 10-32 tap.
Then I inserted the tool-heads for each caliber I load and adjusted the dies with cases inserted in each position. Using a small center punch, I marked each tool head so that I could drill locating holes for the 10-32 socket head screw to mate with. I still get about .002-.005" of play, but that's considerably less then the .100 initially. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
How common is it to have to adjust your dies again after all stations are in use? I initially adjust my dies by putting a round in just that station, but once all stations are engaged (particularly sizing), I find my OAL increased by as much as 0.03". The OAL is consistent once the "press load" is the same for each stroke. Is this an issue with all presses? This drives me insane; I am OCD and work with very rigid, high precison machines all day.. i want my presses to perform similarly. Assuming mine is not broken, is there a progressive press out there that is sufficiently rigid to handle a wide range of load without serious deflection? Yes, it's an issue with every progressive press, including shotgun presses. Make the final adjustments with all stations occupied. Bench rigidity is triply important with these presses, too. Is it any better on a commercial machine like the 1050? I'd consider 0.005" ok.. part of the problem is I like running things like RCBS x-dies... and it's not easy to set something like that up once and then "tweak" it. |
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