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Posted: 11/24/2011 7:51:39 AM EDT
| In my ignorance when I started reloading, I picked up RCBS small base dies for my two AR's, in .223 and .308. I am having a hell of a time working up a load to copy some federal gold metal match 168's, and am starting to wonder if the small base dies are affecting accuracy. I have never had any problems with factory ammo feeding, so I am wondering if I am sacrificing accuracy for a non existent problem. Anyone care to share their thoughts on this? |
| right now I am using 1x fired gold metal brass, with sierra matchking 168's. CCI primers, and varget powder. It is out of a DPMS LR-308 with a 24 inch bull barrel. When I run factory GMM 168's, I can go under an inch at 100 yards with a 5 shot group. ( best to date is .87" 5 shot group @100 yds.). Sure would like to get this load duplicated. |
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Small base dies will bring your cases to close-to-virgin dimensions and should help your feeding consistency in autoloaders.
Are you trimming your cases to length every loading to keep all cartridges consistent? How are you charging your cases (an auto-charger or hand-thrown, weighed, and trickled)? |
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44 of Varget is the 308 Winchester index charge for 168s and 175s (if you have a .308 that won't shoot this load sub-MOA you need to fix your rifle).
What seating die are you using? I prefer Forster as Redding does a good job unless the seater cracks –– you'll never know unless you disassemble your die and look with magnification, or note you can't get your ammo to group. NO CRIMPING MATCH BULLETS. |
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Quoted:
44 of Varget is the 308 Winchester index charge for 168s and 175s (if you have a .308 that won't shoot this load sub-MOA you need to fix your rifle). What seating die are you using? I prefer Forster as Redding does a good job unless the seater cracks –– you'll never know unless you disassemble your die and look with magnification, or note you can't get your ammo to group. NO CRIMPING MATCH BULLETS. I tried that load in mine (bolt gun) and it shot pretty well, but not nearly as well as the H4895 |
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Consider
Federal Brass Sucks! No case life, it is soft so primer pockets expand after only few reloads. Small Base dies do not aid in accuracy, period. They are for the purpose (as related above) to size the cases to near virgin brass dimemsions. The reasons to employ this. #1 To size brass fired in sloppy chambered 7.62x51 machine guns as is the case with most GI Brass unless M118LR which is employed in sniper platforms so chambers are not sloppy. #2 To size brass fired in guns the lack sufficent camming action to chamber rounds some examples Browning BAR, Rem Auto Loaders, and at times some break open actions #3 To size brass that has been reformed from a parent cartridge as some times seen in bench rest type cartridges like PPC rounds and 6MM BR. Most AR platforms do not not need small base dies, unless the brass was fired 308 machine gun prior to being loaded for another gun. Now, DPMS rifles have been notorious for being tight chambered gun in 223 and 308. Hell I had 223 upper that would not chamber the cheap SA surplus of years gone by. DPMS took care of the issue. A shooting buddy had a LR308 that choked on Ultramax 308 factory reloads....does that mean need to use small base dies? No... Case life in auto loaders is limited, and there are steps you can take to extend case life....but that is another post. |
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Agree with the forum. I have only heard of cases where a small base die has been of some help, but really have never seen one myself.
It would be intersting to hear if there is a firsthand case on the forum. A regular die body will typically suffice. The small base dies are known to work the case body in places where it really shouldn't need to be worked. As a result, the case will work harden in those zones sooner than if it were left alone. Unless you can't close the bolt onto a regularly sized case, there isn't a need to even consider the small base issue. To get the best performance out of any particular recipe, you may want to consider doing a ladder test for charge weight up front. Sometimes a half grain difference goes a long way in terms of group size and temperature sensitivity. You may need to get a mentor to look over your loading process and make sure your case prep and neck tensions are good too. It shouldn't be too hard to hand load better than store bought. |
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Quoted:
In my ignorance when I started reloading, I picked up RCBS small base dies for my two AR's, in .223 and .308. I am having a hell of a time working up a load to copy some federal gold metal match 168's, and am starting to wonder if the small base dies are affecting accuracy. I have never had any problems with factory ammo feeding, so I am wondering if I am sacrificing accuracy for a non existent problem. Anyone care to share their thoughts on this? You should not be scraficing accuracy by using the SB dies that you have on hand. As others mention, SB dies do work your brass more than standard dies will resulting in shorter case life.. Even with SB dies, with moderate loads, you can still expect 4 - 6 loadings before having to chunk a brass. If you want more of a perfect fit with minimal case working & neck size only, then think about a set of standard dies. If you are satisfied with the current performance, don't give it another thought and keep going. As far as SB dies go, in all my years and different rifles I've loaded for, I have encountered only one rife that positively needed SB dies to function and that was a 60's vintage Rem 740 in .30-06 that belongs to an unkle. MLG |
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I use SB dies and like them. I have seen no decrease in accuracy from several different AR platforms. I have a RRA varmit upper that shoots hand loaded 69 gr OTM bullets just over an inch, 5 shot groups, at 200 yards. I use the SB dies for this rifle. I also shoot a 6.8 SPC rifle that can group under an inch at 100. SB dies are all I ever use in this rifle.
The reason I like SB dies is that at times, I own more then one rifle in each caliber and sometimes, the dienetions of the chamber can differ enough that a FL sizing will fit one rifle but not another. I have had this happen in AR's before. It is rather annoying to load 1000 rds that fit one rifle perfectly but hang up on loading or extracting a round due to a tighter chamber. I will gladly sacrifice some brass life to make sure that the round will chamber in all rifles I load for. That being said, I still get a high reload count for 223. I normally toss 223 brass due to neck splits, not issues to do with case head separation, although I have signs of those from time to time. I don't count my reloads but if I can get 5-6 loads out of a case, I'm happy. I normally shoot AR's, garands, and M1a's where these rifles can be harder on brass anyway. You need to try switching powder, primers, changing OAL, ect to really tune a load. Also, if you are trying to dupe FGGM, why would you not use a Federal match primer or at least a CCI BR primer? At times, I will load 300-500 rounds before I settle on a powder, primer, bullet combo for my rifle. |
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