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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Going above published max load (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/12/2011 2:47:22 PM EDT
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I'm sure that the max loads published in my reloading manuals are published with a margin of error in mind. Also, I'm sure that the max loads are labelled such for a reason (as these companies surely have lots of measuring equipment I can't afford to measure pressures, velocities, fragmentation of bullets, etc.). However, After working up from starting to max load, if there are absolutely zero differences in the brass, and there are zero flattened and/or loose primers, would it be ok to go above the published starting load? Of course, this is assuming that you do it extremely carefully and thoroughly check your brass and gun for signs of overpressure.
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Your going to get mixed responses. Your going to hear load manuals are lawyer'd down and I'm going to say filter what you hear. The way companies have measured pressures has changed as technology has improved. *Meaning older technology isn't as precise as today's.*
I will also caution that no two brand of bullets are the same. Seating depths vary from brand to style of bullet.. *style meaning in pistol for instance* RN, LRN, JHP,LSWC, BNLSWC or for rifle, HPBT, FMJBT, BT, FB, etc..... Seating depth effects and changes charge range. So when choosing powder range be careful where your range comes from. If using a long VLD bullet using FB data your cruising for a bruising. So when you ask can you go over max, I have to ask does your data match your bullet ?? If using a brand x bullet in conjunction with brand x data and your not seeing pressure signs, then yea.... but carefully and in small increments. Data should be respected and not scoffed at as "lawyer'd down." |
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I can't think of one time where I found it necessary to exceed published data. I have always found a good accurate load within the published data range. However, IF one KNOWS what one is doing and proceeds with great caution, the world will not come to an end.
But... you go forth at your own risk. |
| I have some older data that is over MAX compared to current data. I have worked up load's that are over that too. Truth is there was nothing to be gained accuracy wise by doing this. The real reason we did it was to try and get the most velocity out of SBR as we could. In the end it made little difference and was very hard on the SBR. |
Let me start out with saying that I don't currently reload, so you may deride and ridicule my opinion as you see fit ,
but I can't think of a reason to risk a catastrophic failure of one of my guns. If the max load in a given caliber won't do the job you want it to, maybe you should get another caliber. |
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Go above published loads? No worries mate! http://www.wingman26.com/images/shooting/kb-georgia-arms1-small.jpg OK I'll bite. Do you have the other parts and the rest of the story behind that pic ? |
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My first question is how long have you been reloading?
Second question is what caliber in which gun? Both of these really matter. I have gone over the max slightly on a few load in strongly designed guns. But 95% of my "standard" loads are .5 to 1 gr under the max listed. As this is where I fould the best accuracy. Accuracy beats velocity every time. Averaged in 5 or more reloading manuals, and carefully worked up to. Which to me is the key, lots of reloading data to determine the reasonable "max listed" for your load. Good luck and be safe. |
| There is generally not a need to over published data for a well established cartridge. However, in a case such as the 6.8 SPC the published data has and still is generally for the older barrel and chamber specs, and the pressure/velocity is not applicable to the spec II guns. There are also tons of new load combinations that are just being worked up and are unpublished. So, I would say that in the that case the answer is yes. Well established one's, no. |
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Let me start out with saying that I don't currently reload, so you may deride and ridicule my opinion as you see fit ,
but I can't think of a reason to risk a catastrophic failure of one of my guns. If the max load in a given caliber won't do the job you want it to, maybe you should get another caliber. he said it. get a caliber that will accomplish what you want under normal pressures. it is safer, your brass and even your gun will last longer |
| One of the reasons for pressure safety margin is temperature effect. 4831, RL19, or W748 can ruin your day, if you developed the load in cold conditions but use the rounds in hot conditions. You can see the effect indirectly of pressure on velocity vs. temperature on Hodgdon's online web site "take the extreme powder excursion" under "Products". |
| I do not like to go over the max load. Due to differences in reloading manuals I have found that some of my loaded ammo in compliance with one manual when checked with the manufacturer of the bullets manual was a few tenths over. There is some slight room for error but pressing your luck can be extremely dangerous so I suggest that if we are talking .223 it might be time to own a 22-250 or if we are talking .308 it may be time to own a 300 WSM. I really see no reason to expect a .308 to run at the velocity that a 300 WSM will run and if you need more speed a 300 Ultra Mag or step up to a 338 Lapua ect. It just begs the question WHY do you need it to go faster? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Go above published loads? No worries mate! http://www.wingman26.com/images/shooting/kb-georgia-arms1-small.jpg OK I'll bite. Do you have the other parts and the rest of the story behind that pic ? Well, the story behind that particular photo is spelled out in the url, beyond that its just an illustration of a KB, in any case proceed with a lot of caution when approaching max loads. |
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for 9mm, 45ACP, and a few other handgun calibers it may be OK to go over max load data in the sense that there's sometimes data for the +P versions of those calibers. But still unless I see actual +P data I wouldn't assume it's safe to go over the max load data for standard loads |
| I load over only in my ruger redhawk but the loads i use have been tested by proffesionals in redhawk guns. I know people who load over in rifles calibers but i don't. If you choose to load over make sure the ammo is cleary marked as over max to make sure it doesn't get fired in any other gun but the one it was loaded for. My theory is if you want more power, buy a bigger gun. It's cheaper than doctor bills. |
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Someone already hit the crux of the problem - when the definitive signs of high pressure show up, you're way over.
Having many different published resources helps, and they help more when the load data is published with pressures in addition to a speed. Pay attention, you'll notice that the maximum load in one manual may be lower than in another and at a pressure lower than SAAMI maximum. Generally when I've pushed past maximum in a rifle, the stopping point is barely past the published load and nothing good is accomplished. The rifle gets battered, the barrel gets even more torching, and the brass gets trashed. All that isn't worth 50 fps more speed. |
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Go above published loads? No worries mate! http://www.wingman26.com/images/shooting/kb-georgia-arms1-small.jpg OK I'll bite. Do you have the other parts and the rest of the story behind that pic ? Well, the story behind that particular photo is spelled out in the url, beyond that its just an illustration of a KB, in any case proceed with a lot of caution when approaching max loads. So you took a random photo of a destroyed rifle upper and calling it an over charged cartridge??? 
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OP, what is the reason for wanting to go over max?
In most applications, it's not necessary to, but there are times where you need to, like shooting 600 to 1000 yrds in specific rifles. saying that, all my short line loads are considered medium, but, with certain powders and HEAVY BULLETS, I go a little beyond max, because, in that particular instance, it's where the accuracy is. Working up the loads for each rifle VERY CAREFULLY of course. If you are fairly new to reloading, DON"T GO OVER MAX. I know, everyone wants a load that will go 600 or more, but, will you really shoot that? A good load with a medium charge will be just as accurate as one that is 100 fps faster at 300-400 yrds. Go for accuracy, it doesn't do any good if it whizzes past the target and not hit where you want. Besides, it's cheaper to load for accuracy,, less powder, longer life on brass, longer life on rifle. If you want speed, get a faster caliber. 'Borg |
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I've never loaded over a max that is out there somewhere in published data. Some of the manuals are all over compared to one another, but I have never found the need to go over something available as published data.
I like a lot of warm loads, they tend to have the most accuracy for me, but I have never found anything useful for really hot loads. |
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What do you do when you're loading for something for which no data exists? As in the case of Remington Golden Sabers? Rem won't even give out load data on a component thay make - now how stupid is that? They say "can't" and I say "won't" because clearly they could. ETA: as someone mentioned 6.8 SPC, Barnes is the only publisher using the updated chamber spec. The rest are using the way outdated original chamber pressure data. 68Forums is a great place to get loading help, BUT again - what is cool in Jake's rifle is not on yours. I had a load there for RE7 IIRC and started below what the guy found to be fine. Hell - I had swipes and bashed up primers, so home I went and pulled the remainder. The stuff Constructor runs in his rifle - same spec and all - is way too hot for mine. Then you have guys like HTR, who I have all the respect in the world for, but just reading some of his loads tightens my sphincter. .45 ACP - strange stuff - like Alliant Power Pistol lists A LOAD, say 9.0g of PP using a 185g JHP, which exceeds 1000 FPS, while HP38 lists start and max. Again - IIRC 5.8 was max in HP38 for a certain projectile and I have gone as high as 6.4, probably gonna settle on 6.1 because I want a certain velocity, QuickLoad says it's within the safe range as far as pressure. I have a few issues with one 1911 to resolve, but hope to get out with a chrono and (God willing) get some useful data with the ones I now have functioning 100%. As our mod noted - accuracy trumps velocity . . . and last thing - a pet peeve of many here - especially 1911Smith is coping loads from forums . . . there was a thread where some guy piped in with a load I thought was way out of line, so I checked all my books, then I ran the numbers in QL and determined that - again - in theory - that load produced about 77,000 PSI (.223 using RE15 IIRC), but the guy was like - works for Jake, works for me. Let me just say this on HG loading - watch the OAL because a very small variation WILL equal a very large pressure difference. Gentlemen - we are all here for the same reason and that is to help each other. We all know that dealing with components that are designed to explode is inherently dangerous. Be prudent, be careful and perhaps most important, if you make a mistake, be lucky. Bottom line OP: I believe 95% of reloaders have gone over max loads at some point, but they did it in a prudent manner. |
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What do you do when you're loading for something for which no data exists? As in the case of Remington Golden Sabers? Rem won't even give out load data on a component thay make - now how stupid is that? Eazy.... use Hornady or Sierra data. Some working knowledge with XTPs and Sierra JHPs helps greatly. OR You could hollar at someone who does have experience with seating both to find how much bullet wall to sink so seating depth is consistant with data used. Yea, I'll work on that for you. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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What do you do when you're loading for something for which no data exists? As in the case of Remington Golden Sabers? Rem won't even give out load data on a component thay make - now how stupid is that? Eazy.... use Hornady or Sierra data. Some working knowledge with CROw and Sierra JHPs helps greatly. OR You could hollar at someone who does have experience with seating both to find how bullet wall to sink so seating depth is consistant with data used. Yea, I'll work on that for you. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'll use other data - but as it comes from your mouth - go to the bullet manufacturer, I did and came up blank. Zero understanding of CROw - never heard of it. On a personal note: got the email - all is well but that Kimber is a mess - mags - they are killing me and these are top rated mags too . . . we'll talk. Coffee for me, then I'll reply to the mail. |
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Open up 5 manuals - find 5 different max loads. and then treat them as the range of possibilities, understanding that the maximum load one person finds tends to the low end of the range, but another person can get to the high end without problem. Also as I said above, your analysis of the range of loads found by comparing the chamber pressure when it is included is an important part of understanding the range. One of the details we have to sort through these days is load data from piezo measured pressures, but many manuals still carrying the same CUP data they've published for years. The Hornady #7 manual does not include chamber pressure. One of the writers for Precision Shooting, JC Munnell, is a prolific reloader that shoots prodigious amounts of ammunition when he works through one of his multiple gun projects, and it's very common for him to have on rifle in the mix that will not tolerate the same maximum loads that others handle without drama. Some of his loads are stiff, although I don't recall him reporting a severely stuck bolt that required gunsmith assistance (he's smart enough to avoid writing about those mistakes, too), he almost always shoots til the bolt is sticky if the cartridge case doesn't indicate time to stop first. A couple of gun writers for the off the rack magazines love to install their strain gages on rifle barrels. That would be their unbalanced and uncompensated gages. Then, they shoot factory loads to serve as the "calibration" with a complete absence of knowledge of the actual pressure produced by that ammunition. Looks great to their audience, but it annoys me. |
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I recommend not going over the max published loads with their rifle because that is really max for their rifle. Their rifle is not my rifle. B Are you saying your rifle has a higher max load? Curious––do you have testing equipment to determine the maximum for YOUR rifle? 
BTW, it has been proven the old "signs of excessive pressure" don't begin to show until one is about 10,000 PSI over SAAMI maximum pressure for the cartridge/caliber. 
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I recommend not going over the max published loads with their rifle because that is really max for their rifle. Their rifle is not my rifle. B Are you saying your rifle has a higher max load? Curious––do you have testing equipment to determine the maximum for YOUR rifle?
BTW, it has been proven the old "signs of excessive pressure" don't begin to show until one is about 10,000 PSI over SAAMI maximum pressure for the cartridge/caliber. Its kind of a pass/fail thing when pushing it. Work up to a safe load and you'll get a pass, too much and your rifle fails. Maybe this loading wont cause problems, but what happens when your ammo box is sitting in the sun as you tinker with something at the range? For me its just better to not risk my rifle for an extra couple hundred fps. |
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Open up 5 manuals - find 5 different max loads. That is exactly what I do. I open up every manual I own, which is about 7 , and see if the bullet designs for that caliber are comparable. Find the listed max's and start 7-10% lower than the lowest and work my way up. The cost of powder and projectiles is cheap compared to new firearms or my safety. |
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I'm sure that the max loads published in my reloading manuals are published with a margin of error in mind. Also, I'm sure that the max loads are labelled such for a reason (as these companies surely have lots of measuring equipment I can't afford to measure pressures, velocities, fragmentation of bullets, etc.). However, After working up from starting to max load, if there are absolutely zero differences in the brass, and there are zero flattened and/or loose primers, would it be ok to go above the published starting load? Of course, this is assuming that you do it extremely carefully and thoroughly check your brass and gun for signs of overpressure. Read the two parts of your statement in red, and then think.. You say they have equipment you don't, then you proceed to say you'll use that non-existent equipment to check for over-pressure of an explosive that you are holding in your hand in front of your face. |
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I'm sure that the max loads published in my reloading manuals are published with a margin of error in mind. Also, I'm sure that the max loads are labelled such for a reason (as these companies surely have lots of measuring equipment I can't afford to measure pressures, velocities, fragmentation of bullets, etc.). However, After working up from starting to max load, if there are absolutely zero differences in the brass, and there are zero flattened and/or loose primers, would it be ok to go above the published starting load? Of course, this is assuming that you do it extremely carefully and thoroughly check your brass and gun for signs of overpressure. Hi Pete, you posted a good question and got a wide assortment of feedback. Some of it very good information (I tend to side with AeroE on this one) and some of it a little off if not down right incorrect. Here are some facts for you to use in your decisions in this matter. 1) No two rifles are exactly alike in how they shoot, and what exact loads perform well in them. 2) Loading manuals take #1 into consideration and are guidelines. These guidelines as a rule of thumb are extremely good data and will hold true for about 99.9% of the rifles out there. At the top of the charts you run a high risk of seeing some signs of high pressure and increase your chances for wear and tear on all components. Below the listed data and you run the risk of low pressure. The front section of your manual says the same thing, make sure you read it. 3) Also because of # 1, the manuals are not a total guarantee that your rifle must perform well in the specified ranges. 4) Going beyond and above the published data IS RISKY and as a general rule should not be done unless the reloader has a genuine need and is experianced enough to recognize the danger signs before he goes too far. It is not to be considered lightly as most of the common signs you hear and read about are very near the danger point and should be avoided. 5) #4 also holds true for substituting components, especially powders. With that said, I personally have had 1 rifle that showed pressure (locked bolt) with loads that all manuals listed as middle of the charts and another that would swell case heads to the point that primers would fall out well before max. Conversely i have had two rifles that did not even begin to perform or show any signs of pressure until about 10% over the listed max loads (I assure you, the pucker factor was tight during the load developing for those two but man did they shoot good). So the big question you need to ask yourself is "Do you really need to go higher than the charts?" Or, is it just a thrill to be headed off the reservation? The odds are that your rifle will perform just fine within published data and you don't really need to exceed the manuals. But if you do need to go higher, i would suggest starting with PO Ackley's reloading manual, Vol 1, "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders". Some of his data is a good bit higher than the others. Some of it is flat out crazy. First and foremost, be safe, MLG |
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Ok, to clarify some points: 1. I'm loading .40S&W for a Springfield XD 2. I'm not looking to go over max because I haven't found a load that suits my needs. Rather, I'm about 80% just curious, and 20% considering actually doing this, just to see how much it could take 2-A. I am not trying to blow up my gun
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Blowing up a gun is not the problem. A moderate over-load won't do that, (most of the time). The problem is a moderate over-load will severely shorten the service life. Also, as mentioned, a moderate over-load in September can become a drastic over-load in the dog days of August, (or yesterday, for that matter).
With the wide selection of powders available today, most cartridges can provide better performance than that which they made their reputions on. All with reasonable loads and safe pressures. Today's .308 is fully the equal of the ,30/06 loads which developed that cartridge's reputation. I used to hot rod the .38 Super, but as soon as I obtained a 9x23mm WInchester, I gave it up. One has no problems with high pressures, and the other occasionally does. None of this means that if you go .1 grain over max, that the Earth will reverse rotation. |
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Here's my answer. With a .40 S&W, NO. The data available that is within SAAMI specs will get anything done that you to get done with a pistol. All you need is to either move up or down in bullet weight and find a powder and bullet in that weight class that is accurate in YOUR firearm. What you gain in velocity from being near max to over max won't do you any good. The .40 S&W cases are designed to operate at 9mm pressures which are generally around 35.000psi, so if you plan to load anything in the 180 or up weight you should be especially cautious. The 180 and up bullets are longer and while they are ok in a 10mm case, which is in itself longer, they take up a lot of space in the 40S&W which raises pressures greatly, and you really have to pay attention to the seating. Pressures can spike quickly.
{Overall Length Pressure 1.140" 26,195 psi 1.130" 27,521 psi 1.120" 29,079 psi 1.115" 29,924 psi 1.100" 32,900 psi 1.075" 39,641 psi 1.050" 50,954 psi 1.040" 57,926 psi 1.030" 66,890 psi 1.020" 80,345 psi 1.010" 101,286 psi 1.000" 138,744 psi} You go from a tame and safe load to an explosion very quickly. You are better off trying to find a more efficient powder. for instance. Both of these loads are with the 155gr Hornady XTP {155 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon HP-38 .400" 1.125" 5.0 937 22,900 PSI 6.0 1103 33,000 PSI}*******min load=302ft/lbs––max=418ft/lbs {155 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Longshot .400" 1.125" 7.5 1129 24,900 PSI 9.3 1283 31,900 PSI }min load=438ft/lbs––max=566ft/lbs |
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Are you saying your rifle has a higher max load? Curious––do you have testing equipment to determine the maximum for YOUR rifle?
BTW, it has been proven the old "signs of excessive pressure" don't begin to show until one is about 10,000 PSI over SAAMI maximum pressure for the cartridge/caliber. No, I'm saying my rifle is different than their rifle. Most of mine have very long throats that are well outside of a SAAMI chamber. I only have a single rifle that has anything close to a SAAMI chamber. The actual ANSI publication Z.299.3 1993 has a list of about 25 things that can generate errors when measuring pressures with a test gun. Although it would be fun to play with, I don't have an instrumented rifle. However that is also prone to measuring errors and you need to calibrate the system with pressure test ammo. B |
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Here's my answer. With a .40 S&W, NO. The data available that is within SAAMI specs will get anything done that you to get done with a pistol. All you need is to either move up or down in bullet weight and find a powder and bullet in that weight class that is accurate in YOUR firearm. What you gain in velocity from being near max to over max won't do you any good. The .40 S&W cases are designed to operate at 9mm pressures which are generally around 35.000psi, so if you plan to load anything in the 180 or up weight you should be especially cautious. The 180 and up bullets are longer and while they are ok in a 10mm case, which is in itself longer, they take up a lot of space in the 40S&W which raises pressures greatly, and you really have to pay attention to the seating. Pressures can spike quickly. {Overall Length Pressure 1.140" 26,195 psi 1.130" 27,521 psi 1.120" 29,079 psi 1.115" 29,924 psi 1.100" 32,900 psi 1.075" 39,641 psi 1.050" 50,954 psi 1.040" 57,926 psi 1.030" 66,890 psi 1.020" 80,345 psi 1.010" 101,286 psi 1.000" 138,744 psi} You go from a tame and safe load to an explosion very quickly. You are better off trying to find a more efficient powder. for instance. Both of these loads are with the 155gr Hornady XTP {155 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon HP-38 .400" 1.125" 5.0 937 22,900 PSI 6.0 1103 33,000 PSI}*******min load=302ft/lbs––max=418ft/lbs {155 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Longshot .400" 1.125" 7.5 1129 24,900 PSI 9.3 1283 31,900 PSI }min load=438ft/lbs––max=566ft/lbs Here is ANOTHE BIG NO! for loading .40 past published max loads, for another reason: The max loads published today take into account that the .40 is a MODERN caliber: meaning it did NOT exist prior to the late 1980s and hence, every single gun made for the caliber is MODERN. That matters because, unlike other popular calibers (such as .45 and 9mm - both over 100 years old) there are NO antique .40 cals to worry about. Hence, the maximum load data REALLY IS the max that your XD can handle. I would NOT give you the same warning if your XD was chambered in 9mm; the data for 9mm is configured to be safe in EVERY 9mm handgun going all the way back to turn-of the century guns - that data MUST be safe - even for antiques. Here is another reason to abide by the book limits on .40 cal: there is still suspect brass floating around out there which caused us USPSA (aka IPSC) shooters many problems in the 1990s, particularly the "Federal" cases with the smaller lettering. When it is worn out, that type of case suffers total head separation (have seen it at a shoot - not fun). Again - I am not giving this warning as just a knee-jerk reaction or to simply parrot the loading manuals' cautions. I am telling you that I would NEVER exceed published loads for .40 S&W (or .357 Sig for that matter). And that is coming from a guy who loads "9mm Major" for USPSA (google it - you will be amazed). |
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Quoted: Quoted: Snip ...And that is coming from a guy who loads "9mm Major" for USPSA (google it - you will be amazed).  I just looked that up, and HOLY CRAP! That's just amazing to think about working up loads like that... Talk about pushing limits. Yeah. The 9mm Major is pretty spectacular. |
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Ok, to clarify some points: 1. I'm loading .40S&W for a Springfield XD 2. I'm not looking to go over max because I haven't found a load that suits my needs. Rather, I'm about 80% just curious, and 20% considering actually doing this, just to see how much it could take 2-A. I am not trying to blow up my gun Then stay within published range for your gun. 40S&W is the worst choice to hot rod and case strength falls far short of pressure that can be produced for it. Speaking for race gun velocities. Those guys push max knowing the risk. The ones who push max in 40S&W whom I know do it with 1911s and Hi-Powers. Both all metal guns, guns that they don't intend to use but one season before building another. They get the shit pounded out of them. Also these guns use fully supported chambers. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Going above published max load (Page 1 of 2)
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