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Posted: 6/2/2011 4:30:13 PM EDT
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I've started having a strange problem when depriming. The deprining pin takes the end off the primer but leaves the body in the primer pocket. It only seems to be happening some of the time. This is on a single stage Lee press with Lee dies. Anyone else run into something like this? If so, is there any way to salvage this brass? Thanks. David |
| I've only had that happen to brass that got wet or had been soaked in some kind of brass cleaning liquid. The moisture seems to weld the primer wall to the primer pocket. I've tried 2 or 3 methods to get the broken piece of primer out of the case but have had poor success usually damaging the primer pocket. |
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Caused by soaking cases in a brass cleaner without depriming first. Those cases are toast, lesson learned. I didn't soak them in anything, they went straight from the range into my brass tumbler. David What is the headstamp? Once fired cases? Range brass? |
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Quoted: What is the headstamp? Once fired cases? Range brass? Most of the problem cases are headstamped MRP. They are a mix of range brass and factory fresh. The range brass was recovered from an enclosed area, so they were not sitting out in the elements. CBC headstamped brass did not have this issue, even though it is from the same manufacturer. Bad primers? Thanks. David |
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Me.......I'd recycle the bad brass (the ones with some stuck cup material still left).
Then.......... As for the rest, that was properly decapped (w/ the same headstamp)....... Maybe, they have an undersized primer pocket? OR Maybe, the mfn didn't clean the brass properly and the primer cup got stuck (sort of welded in there) as a result of some chemical reaction? But, you got "lucky." Whatever........I'd use my reamer to "true" the pockets and I'd also clean the brass. Aloha, Mark |
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Quoted: When I used my reamer on the cases where the primer came out properly, it barely even scratched the pocket. I'm leaning towards a chemical from manufacturing "gluing" some primers in the primer pockets.Me.......I'd recycle the bad brass (the ones with some stuck cup material still left). Then.......... As for the rest, that was properly decapped (w/ the same headstamp)....... Maybe, they have an undersized primer pocket? OR Maybe, the mfn didn't clean the brass properly and the primer cup got stuck (sort of welded in there) as a result of some chemical reaction? But, you got "lucky." Whatever........I'd use my reamer to "true" the pockets and I'd also clean the brass. Aloha, Mark Anyone have any ideas on how to rescue this brass? Thanks. David |
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Quoted: With all due respect to the mod, I have cleaned over 3,000 pieces of 9 mm brass with the wet method for SS media i.e. Lemishine/Dawn without depriming and only have seen one single pieces that has this problem within the last week. The item in question was a range pickup R-P headstamped 380 that slipped in but was caught when it got hung on the Lee FLR/deprimer die.Caused by soaking cases in a brass cleaner without depriming first. Those cases are toast, lesson learned. So I have to ask again, what is the evidence that doing the wet method without depriming will cause significant corrosion of the brass/primer. I think it is important to clear this up one way or the other for those of us that use this method. I am not wed to the idea that using the wet method is safe and trouble free but at the same time I would like someone to come up with some concrete evidence to support this contention so that we know what is the best path forward. |
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Quoted:
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With all due respect to the mod, I have cleaned over 3,000 pieces of 9 mm brass with the wet method for SS media i.e. Lemishine/Dawn without depriming and only have seen one single pieces that has this problem within the last week. The item in question was a range pickup R-P headstamped 380 that slipped in but was caught when it got hung on the Lee FLR/deprimer die.
Caused by soaking cases in a brass cleaner without depriming first. Those cases are toast, lesson learned. So I have to ask again, what is the evidence that doing the wet method without depriming will cause significant corrosion of the brass/primer. I think it is important to clear this up one way or the other for those of us that use this method. I am not wed to the idea that using the wet method is safe and trouble free but at the same time I would like someone to come up with some concrete evidence to support this contention so that we know what is the best path forward. Meant soaking the cases in something like Birchwood Casey brass cleaner without depriming, no tumbling involved. That thread was a month or two back, you may of missed it. We are talking about 2 different things. I have no problem with you not depriming your cases before wet tumbling. Depriming first before wet tumbling works better for me. I've tried both ways. Just like the crimp/no crimp on bullets, try both ways. Do what works best for you. You are certainly free to disagree with me, everyone has their own ways of doing things. 
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The other thing to consider on the wet cleaning with the primer in place, the problem would be more evident the longer the cases sat between the time they were wet cleaned and when they were subsequently deprimed, a shorter time frame probably wouldn't be a problem, but if you set them back and then try to deprime them 6 months or a year later you might experience a completely different result. |
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Dryflash3 - Thanks for the info and sorry for the misunderstanding – just trying to do some due diligent to figure out if there is a problem that I did not know about. I did miss the Birchwood Casey brass cleaner, unfortunately did a quick search and came up empty, must be using the wrong keywords. Can someone point me to the right direction? Just wondering what is in that stuff as their website is pretty close mouth on content. Wingman26 – the thing to keep in mind about wet cleaning and time the brass sits wet is that most of the handgun brass we shoot are range pickups and it is not unusual to find ones that has been out there for months if not years, and so they certainly have been exposed to wet conditions for serious stretched of time, but it is rare to find any that have primers that fall apart or the casing being degraded to the extend that they are not safe. Granted that they have not been exposed to Lemishine but that is actually a very weak acid and ground water is frequently not neutral in pH either. |
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Primers are made from cartridge brass and they can be sensitive to stress corrosion cracking. This is most commonly from ammonia but could also be from other chemicals. Either way, the corner of the primer is doubly stressed since it is smashed flush under pressure. If the break line is ragged, this is the case. I doubt a reamer would work because you have no centering. A step drill could work but you risk damaging the primer pocket. Forget heat, too easy to anneal the case head. A taper reamer could be used to expose a small shoulder of the case, allowing a primer pocket reamer to take care of the remaining part. If this is embrittlement by stress corrosion cracking, the primer rim should be easy to cut. |
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Quoted:
Dryflash3 - Thanks for the info and sorry for the misunderstanding – just trying to do some due diligent to figure out if there is a problem that I did not know about. I did miss the Birchwood Casey brass cleaner, unfortunately did a quick search and came up empty, must be using the wrong keywords. Can someone point me to the right direction? Just wondering what is in that stuff as their website is pretty close mouth on content.
Wingman26 – the thing to keep in mind about wet cleaning and time the brass sits wet is that most of the handgun brass we shoot are range pickups and it is not unusual to find ones that has been out there for months if not years, and so they certainly have been exposed to wet conditions for serious stretched of time, but it is rare to find any that have primers that fall apart or the casing being degraded to the extend that they are not safe. Granted that they have not been exposed to Lemishine but that is actually a very weak acid and ground water is frequently not neutral in pH either.
Here are some cases that I just cleaned. The 3 RP cases on the left were not deprimed before wet tumbling, the Norma cases were deprimed before tumbling. Why I deprime before wet tumbling. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Dryflash3 - Thanks for the info and sorry for the misunderstanding – just trying to do some due diligent to figure out if there is a problem that I did not know about. I did miss the Birchwood Casey brass cleaner, unfortunately did a quick search and came up empty, must be using the wrong keywords. Can someone point me to the right direction? Just wondering what is in that stuff as their website is pretty close mouth on content. Wingman26 – the thing to keep in mind about wet cleaning and time the brass sits wet is that most of the handgun brass we shoot are range pickups and it is not unusual to find ones that has been out there for months if not years, and so they certainly have been exposed to wet conditions for serious stretched of time, but it is rare to find any that have primers that fall apart or the casing being degraded to the extend that they are not safe. Granted that they have not been exposed to Lemishine but that is actually a very weak acid and ground water is frequently not neutral in pH either. http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg272/dryflash3/Wet%20Tumbling/P6040118.jpg Here are some cases that I just cleaned. The 3 RP cases on the left were not deprimed before wet tumbling, the Norma cases were deprimed before tumbling. Why I deprime before wet tumbling. Yes, nice! I always deprime my rifle brass before using the SS media method, just not the pistol brass. Apart from getting the rifle brass primer pocket clean which is necessary for precision reloading, it is also necessary for proper drying because of the bottle neck. |
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I think it has something to do with the brass setting out in the weather, and what kind of acidity in the soil/residue from powder. I've picked up brass from all across this country and have noticed that different areas will work on the case differently. In Az, the brass will turn black and stay, in Tx the brass will turn black and then corrode white, At Camp Perry, the brass will turn a petina, then corrode white, and so on.
A case will get water in it from rain, dew, condensation, and the primer pocket is the last thing to dry out. I've picked up cases that have sat out in the weather just a couple of days and it's already starting to turn green from the corrosion. It may also be the type of powder(residue) used. I noticed when I was using Varget, if I left the cases in the back of my truck, that after a couple of days they would start to turn green and corrode around the mouth. Just my experience. 'Borg |
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Quoted: That is what I would think too, but at least up here in Michigan, I have picked up and used many thousands cases of 9mm and only remember one single case that looks significantly corroded and one single one that has the primer break up upon depriming. Most rejects are due to smashed up lips and loose primer pockets (always FC).I think it has something to do with the brass setting out in the weather, and what kind of acidity in the soil/residue from powder. I've picked up brass from all across this country and have noticed that different areas will work on the case differently. In Az, the brass will turn black and stay, in Tx the brass will turn black and then corrode white, At Camp Perry, the brass will turn a petina, then corrode white, and so on. A case will get water in it from rain, dew, condensation, and the primer pocket is the last thing to dry out. I've picked up cases that have sat out in the weather just a couple of days and it's already starting to turn green from the corrosion. It may also be the type of powder(residue) used. I noticed when I was using Varget, if I left the cases in the back of my truck, that after a couple of days they would start to turn green and corrode around the mouth. Just my experience. 'Borg |
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I has absolutely nothing to do with sitting out in the weather, the weather doesn't expose it to corrosive chemicals, depending on what someone uses to wet clean their brass, most liquid solutions for cleaning brass have some kind of aggressive chemical in them to cut the crud, when you clean brass with the primers in place those chemicals get into the primer pocket and interact with the primer residue. If the primers are still in place that chemical is trapped and can't easily be rinsed out, attacking the primer, weakening it and also kind of gluing it in place, if the primers are removed its easy to completely rinse out and dry. |
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Quoted: I has absolutely nothing to do with sitting out in the weather, the weather doesn't expose it to corrosive chemicals, depending on what someone uses to wet clean their brass, most liquid solutions for cleaning brass have some kind of aggressive chemical in them to cut the crud, when you clean brass with the primers in place those chemicals get into the primer pocket and interact with the primer residue. If the primers are still in place that chemical is trapped and can't easily be rinsed out, attacking the primer, weakening it and also kind of gluing it in place, if the primers are removed its easy to completely rinse out and dry. Yes, I can certainly see that happening if the solution was not properly diluted and rinsed out. The other question is what kind of chemical do they use. The citric acid in Lemishine I would not characterize as harsh chemical, but I was wondering what was in the Birchwood Casey brass cleaner. |
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I has absolutely nothing to do with sitting out in the weather, the weather doesn't expose it to corrosive chemicals, depending on what someone uses to wet clean their brass, most liquid solutions for cleaning brass have some kind of aggressive chemical in them to cut the crud, when you clean brass with the primers in place those chemicals get into the primer pocket and interact with the primer residue. If the primers are still in place that chemical is trapped and can't easily be rinsed out, attacking the primer, weakening it and also kind of gluing it in place, if the primers are removed its easy to completely rinse out and dry. If that were true, then brass wouldn't turn color/corrode out in the weather. I'm talking about the soil in combination with water, or powder residue and water, otherwise brass wouldn't corrode there is a certain amount of salts in the residue. 'Borg |
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Having spent a number of years in the chemical industry I can tell you that citric acid isn't the strongest acid, but it rates about 2 on the ph scale* (sulfuric acid's ph is 1), and just like any acid it can attack metals if left in contact too long, no problem if you clean and then properly rinse, but leave an acidic residue in the primer pocket for a few months it can damage it. Brass has been used for thousands of years for fittings on ships and other outdoor functions, while it can discolor and look bad, it doesn't really lose much strength from outdoor weathering. *The exact ph of a solution will vary by concentration, but even a ph of 4 or 5 can be destructive if left in contact with a material over a period of time. |
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