Armory Sponsor
Posted: 4/5/2011 10:20:40 PM EDT
| My Redding competition die (.223 Rem.) did not come with directions, bought it used but new. I got on line and looked at the Redding site and followed the directions....I think. My COAL is waaaaay off, no two are the same and 10 thousandths spred between them is not unusual. Please help before I toss this in the trash. BTW, a regular RCBS .223 die yealds OACL of less than .002 spred. Thank you. |
|
Have you taken the die apart and cleaned it? That's always the first place to start..
You said you did go to Redding's site and downloaded the directions correct? Have you tried calling Redding on the phone? They can help you trouble shoot and if they decide that the die is faulty they can setup an RMA to exchange/repair it for you. I don't know what all to suggest, I don't understand how the 1 die is inconsistant but the other is +/- 0.002"? I assume everything else is the same? Same bullets? Your Trim Length is consistant? Headspace consistant? When you installed the die, you raised the shell plate all the way up, then threaded the die down untill the threaded die body just touches the shell plate (Compressing the spring loaded seater plug)? Then backed the die out so the indicating marking was facing in a direction easily visable to you? I would hope you wouln't "throw it away" but if you are going to, I'll take it off your hands. -Masta |
|
My Hornady .223 seater with a mic will seat to a COAL of anywhere between 2.256" and 2.267" when set to 2.26" It's never bothered me- as long as it stays under the 2.27" mag clearance, it's fine. If you're worried about potential accuracy, have you measured the OGL instead of COAL? I've found that even with COAL values being +/- 0.005", the OGL values will stay within a +/- 0.001" tolerance. Also, it'd help to tell us what bullets, press, cases you're using. And what brass prep steps you've taken |
|
Quoted:
My Hornady .223 seater with a mic will seat to a COAL of anywhere between 2.256" and 2.267" when set to 2.26" It's never bothered me- as long as it stays under the 2.27" mag clearance, it's fine. If you're worried about potential accuracy, have you measured the OGL instead of COAL? I've found that even with COAL values being +/- 0.005", the OGL values will stay within a +/- 0.001" tolerance. Also, it'd help to tell us what bullets, press, cases you're using. And what brass prep steps you've taken AH-Ha - so you realize the oft stated COAL that will fit in a mag is 2.27 and NOT 2.26 . . . OP - I'd clean it really well. Grab 10 pieces of brass - set the COAL using the shortest piece. Load the other 9 and see what you get and post an AAR. I am pretty certain it will be much, much better. Also make sure the die is not screwed in as far as needed to put a crimp - back it off some to make sure. the other thought I had was it is crimping while seating and that wil make it pretty hard to get consistent results. |
|
Quoted:
Also make sure the die is not screwed in as far as needed to put a crimp - back it off some to make sure. the other thought I had was it is crimping while seating and that wil make it pretty hard to get consistent results. He has a Redding Competition seating die, It doesn't have a crimp ring. I just bought and recieved my Redding .223 Competition Seating die, I installed it in the press but havent used it yet.. Previous to the Competition Seating Die I had the standard Redding seating die and all my COAL's were within 0.001". But even though no one seems to want to listen to me on this, EVERYTHING I do I allow a 0.001" variance. So by keeping EVERYTHING (Headspace, Trim Length, COAL, etc) within 0.001" it keeps EVERYTHING else consistant. It all starts when you FL resize your brass, If your headspaces are all "Whithin spec" of a drop in case gauge, but have a 0.010" variance between them, then your trim length wont be consistant, and your bullet seating wont be consistant. It's a domino effect folks. But what do I know? 100's of posts every week with people having issues with .223, I tell everyone the same thing, stop buying cheap Lee Rifle die's, use spray lube for consistant lubing, measure you headspace with a hornady headspace gauge, etc, etc, etc.. But no one listens to me. They listen to the new guy with 10 posts that says "Hey I use Lee .223 die's they work great!" (He doesn't have a CLUE that his headspace is all over the place, probably doesn't care and has never used a quality set of dies or any higher end equiptment), Yeah that's the guy I want to take advice from. -Masta |
|
Which bullet are you seating?
The HPBT target bullets vary in length; the fault is not the die unless there is something unusual wrong. The seater stem contacts every bullet at the same location on the ogive, so each bullet is seated to the same depth in the case. This is more important than the minor variation in length. But, you have to find the longest seated bullets, adjust the seater to get them to magazine length, and then seat the rest of the bullets. This is one reason some people simply seat to 2.25 inches and press on. |
|
Ogive to bullet tip is where I get my variance. If brass gages fine brass sizing has zero effect on COAL.
and those cheap Lee dies work fine. They don't control run out quite as well as my Forster or Redding. But it's a difference that won't be discernible for most riflemen inside of 500 yards. While I hear you loud and clear Masta and respect your knowledge and input as all do. Your bias against Lee is obvious and your claims questionable. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
Ogive to bullet tip is where I get my variance. If brass gages fine brass sizing has zero effect on COAL. and those cheap Lee dies work fine. They don't control run out quite as well as my Forster or Redding. But it's a difference that won't be discernible for most riflemen inside of 500 yards. While I hear you loud and clear Masta and respect your knowledge and input as all do. Your bias against Lee is obvious and your claims questionable. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile EVERYTHING in loading ammo is a domino effect, if you start out bad nothing else after is going to be right, doesn't mean it wont be in "Spec" but definitly not consistant. I don't have a Bias against Lee, I still will tell any new reloader just starting out to buy a Lee Classic Turret press as their first press, but I WON'T tell them to buy Lee Rifle Die's. My "bias" as you call it is based on real life experience not an opinion with no experience to back it up. I make reccemondations/suggestions based on what I've learned personally. This is where the internet sucks, I wish I could demo these things live, then all opinions and bias go out the window. There will always be people that don't give a crap about consistancy or anything really as long as the ammo chambers and goes bang. But I don't live the rest of my life like that, so why would I reload like that? I may be OCD, but everything I do weather it be reload or build a house or work on a car, I take pride in the work I do and consistancy is everything. Lee's products work with no doubt, the'll get the job done. But they are in NO way a "High Quality" product and it shows. The fact that you can see machining marks on their dies shows. Their press's 'float' alot more then a Dillon, RCBS or Hornady. No Bias here, just facts. I have spent hours in real life talking to people about reloading and I NEVER tell them to go out and buy $3,000 worth of reloading equiptment, because reality says many people that start reloading decide they don't like it or it takes too much time or whatever and don't end up doing it. But those that do decide reloading is for them, instead of buying 2-3 sets of dies for the same caliber, why not buy a good set to start and never need or want to buy another set? I speak of what I know from experience. If that's Bias, then I guess I am bias. -Masta |
| Hmm, that's lots of food for thought. The bullets I'm useing are Speer 55gr. Hollow Point, flat base. $16.97 per hundred at Sportsmans Whorehouse, should be a good bullet. I use an RCBS single stage press. Caseings are trimed to 1.750, give or take a thousandth, sorted by brand. As mentioned I'm crimpping in a seperate step. When I use Hornady bulk 55 gr. FMJBT, I'm always within + or - a thousandth or so with the regular RCBC seater die, so I'm a bit disappointed with this set up. To me, seating depth is not as important as a consistant OACL. I don't think I'm asking too much to get closer than 2.239 then 2.233 then one that's right at 2.235. I can go back to Hornady bullets and my RCBS seat/crimp die and be a ton closer. I just hope I'm setting everything up correctly. Thank you for the input. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ogive to bullet tip is where I get my variance. If brass gages fine brass sizing has zero effect on COAL. and those cheap Lee dies work fine. They don't control run out quite as well as my Forster or Redding. But it's a difference that won't be discernible for most riflemen inside of 500 yards. While I hear you loud and clear Masta and respect your knowledge and input as all do. Your bias against Lee is obvious and your claims questionable. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile EVERYTHING in loading ammo is a domino effect, if you start out bad nothing else after is going to be right, doesn't mean it wont be in "Spec" but definitly not consistant. I don't have a Bias against Lee, I still will tell any new reloader just starting out to buy a Lee Classic Turret press as their first press, but I WON'T tell them to buy Lee Rifle Die's. My "bias" as you call it is based on real life experience not an opinion with no experience to back it up. I make reccemondations/suggestions based on what I've learned personally. This is where the internet sucks, I wish I could demo these things live, then all opinions and bias go out the window. There will always be people that don't give a crap about consistancy or anything really as long as the ammo chambers and goes bang. But I don't live the rest of my life like that, so why would I reload like that? I may be OCD, but everything I do weather it be reload or build a house or work on a car, I take pride in the work I do and consistancy is everything. Lee's products work with no doubt, the'll get the job done. But they are in NO way a "High Quality" product and it shows. The fact that you can see machining marks on their dies shows. Their press's 'float' alot more then a Dillon, RCBS or Hornady. No Bias here, just facts. I have spent hours in real life talking to people about reloading and I NEVER tell them to go out and buy $3,000 worth of reloading equiptment, because reality says many people that start reloading decide they don't like it or it takes too much time or whatever and don't end up doing it. But those that do decide reloading is for them, instead of buying 2-3 sets of dies for the same caliber, why not buy a good set to start and never need or want to buy another set? I speak of what I know from experience. If that's Bias, then I guess I am bias. -Masta Ok, I get you. No bias. Got it. Let's go back to a prior statement. I probably misunderstood you. How does case sizing effect COAL if brass fits within case gage. How then when brass is sized correctly that variance in COAL would be fault of seating die since the die seats off Ogive. Because, all four brands of seating dies I use have the same issue as none of them seat off bullet tip. I've seated with my son's Redding BR die. My .308 Win die is Forster BR micro seat My .223 Micro adjust comp die is RCBS, it seats north of Ogive and south of bullet tip. Both .308 & .223 Lee dies seat off Ogive. All four brands will have variances in COAL. It's not the fault of the dies, it's variances in ogive to bullet tip that caused variances. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
Hmm, that's lots of food for thought. The bullets I'm useing are Speer 55gr. Hollow Point, flat base. $16.97 per hundred at Sportsmans Whorehouse, should be a good bullet. I use an RCBS single stage press. Caseings are trimed to 1.750, give or take a thousandth, sorted by brand. As mentioned I'm crimpping in a seperate step. When I use Hornady bulk 55 gr. FMJBT, I'm always within + or - a thousandth or so with the regular RCBC seater die, so I'm a bit disappointed with this set up. To me, seating depth is not as important as a consistant OACL. I don't think I'm asking too much to get closer than 2.239 then 2.233 then one that's right at 2.235. I can go back to Hornady bullets and my RCBS seat/crimp die and be a ton closer. I just hope I'm setting everything up correctly. Thank you for the input. You're thinking is not correct about seated depth. Uniform combustion is promoted by uniform internal volume in the cartridge, and uniform engagement of the bullet with the case neck. Anyway, measure a few of the bullets. I bet you'll find they are slightly different length. If all you find is 0.006 inches difference, you're good to go, that's not perfect, but it's perfectly acceptable. |
| I mesured 60 bullets for length and the spred was 12/1000ths. Anywhere from .749 to .761, most were .752 and .759, the rest were mostly in between. I really don't feel so bad if Speer can't do better than that. I took 4 bullets of the same length and 4 cases of the same length and ran them through the Redding Competition Die, COAL was 2.235, 2.237, 2.2375 and 2.2375. Although 3 were longer than the 2.235 target OACL, I guess that's acceptable. What does this less than scientific test prove? Bullet length and case length DO have some bearing on the final product. I may want perfect plinking rounds, but the rest of the industry is not in-tune with my thinking. No reason for us reloaders to beat ourselves up about it. I am thinking about filling the seating portion of the seating die with JB weld and seating from case head to bullet tip. Thanks for the advise and for letting me know that all the components have a bit to do with OACL. |
|
Varying case length has nothing to do with oal provided it headspaces in case gage.
To correct oal issue with bullets, tips will have to be trimmed. Now for my opinion. I'm using 77 grain Nosler in 1/7 Noveske N4. Even with varying oal. I'm having zero issues when banging the Hell out of a six inch steel plate at 500 yards. There's only so far you can take exacting tolerances. In my case I run out of effective operating range with rifle before having meplat issues. I don't get all worked up about small oal variances on my .308 Win loads. They vary and still sub moa at 600 yards. BTW: Roque had this Noveske out to 750 meters, slaughtering a 18x26" LaRue pop up using Hornady 75 gr.hpbt with varying oals using Lee RGB .223 dies. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
I mesured 60 bullets for length and the spred was 12/1000ths. Anywhere from .749 to .761, most were .752 and .759, the rest were mostly in between. I really don't feel so bad if Speer can't do better than that. I took 4 bullets of the same length and 4 cases of the same length and ran them through the Redding Competition Die, COAL was 2.235, 2.237, 2.2375 and 2.2375. Although 3 were longer than the 2.235 target OACL, I guess that's acceptable. What does this less than scientific test prove? Bullet length and case length DO have some bearing on the final product. I may want perfect plinking rounds, but the rest of the industry is not in-tune with my thinking. No reason for us reloaders to beat ourselves up about it. I am thinking about filling the seating portion of the seating die with JB weld and seating from case head to bullet tip. Thanks for the advise and for letting me know that all the components have a bit to do with OACL. Don't seat on the bullet meplat. If you really, really think this will help, plug the seater with candle wax, this is an old dodge for adjusting seaters that don't fit a bullet just right. Don't ignore my advice about seating depth when you start loading pistol ammunition in straight wall cases, you'll find yourself with a lap full of high pressure. With respect to the lengths you measured, your thumb is worth 0.0005 inches on a caliper and your instrument can't measure to the fourth place anyway, unless you're using a micrometer. Case length has no bearing on the COAL. |
|
Quoted:
Ok, I get you. No bias. Got it. Let's go back to a prior statement. I probably misunderstood you. How does case sizing effect COAL if brass fits within case gage. Just because the brass fits within a case gauge, doesn't make it consistant. A case gauge is a WIDE range of "In Spec", Just like your car says it gets 13-23 MPG, but you know 99% of the time it's more like 14-15. But it's "In Spec". How then when brass is sized correctly that variance in COAL would be fault of seating die since the die seats off Ogive. I didn't say it was the seating die's fault, If a case if FL sized and is "within spec" of a case gauge, but has a .010" variation in actual headspace between cases, then a trimmer that indexes off the headspace is used to trim the brass then you will have a .010" variation in trim length as well. Domino effect. Because, all four brands of seating dies I use have the same issue as none of them seat off bullet tip. I've seated with my son's Redding BR die. My .308 Win die is Forster BR micro seat My .223 Micro adjust comp die is RCBS, it seats north of Ogive and south of bullet tip. Both .308 & .223 Lee dies seat off Ogive. All four brands will have variances in COAL. It's not the fault of the dies, it's variances in ogive to bullet tip that caused variances. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile My Redding standard seat die seats from ogive, and all my ammo is +/- 0.001" COAL. As I said, I just got my Redding Competition Seating Die and have not used it yet, So we'll see what happens.. With my current standard Redding seating die in both .223 and 9mm my COAL is +/- 0.001" across thousands of rounds... (and yes I check). I use Hornady 55gr FMJ BT for .223 and I've used both Berry's 115gr RN Plated bullets and Precision Delta 115gr FMJ RN for 9mm. -Masta |
Armory Sponsor