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Posted: 1/26/2011 8:57:56 PM EDT
Just tried my hand at annealing some 300 wsm brass, and I dunno if Im on the right track. My method is turn off the lights in the room insert case in the socket in the cordless drill and spin in flame until the neck just starts to glow a dark maroon then remove heat Ive marked all the cases lengthwise with 450 degree tempilaq as you can see in the pictures that has went opaque about half way down the case. My concerns are Im not seeing any of the blue color like you would normally see when annealing cases all I get is a straw color no matter how long the case sits in the flame is this normal, it also seems to take a while to get the case neck to glow maroon? Any ideas on what Im doing wrong? Its Winchester brass, im using propane gas and this is the torch http://www.drillspot.com/products/1347422/worthington_cylinder_310769_self_igniting_torch_kit_pack_of_4 here are some pics of the brass after my annealing
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If it glows it's to hot as has been said, 650-700 degrees is the max and your well over that if the brass starts to glow.
My brass has just a little less color than yours where it is annealed. I also use 650* Tempilaq along with the 450* and heat to where the 650* melts just below where the case stops changing color and no further and the 450* should not melt any further than say 1/3 of the way down(2/3 not melting). I'll try and get some pic's up for you to see the test cases and some finished cases after properly annealed. |
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Wouldn't the bullets be somewhat self-annealing when the gun powder burns?
You got to figure that the temperature that gunpowder will burn will be over 1,000°. Although, it's for just a fraction of a second, it still will heat up the brass. Especially on a bottle neck case, where the explosion is squeezed into a smaller diameter hole. |
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Wouldn't the bullets be somewhat self-annealing when the gun powder burns? You got to figure that the temperature that gunpowder will burn will be over 1,000°. Although, it's for just a fraction of a second, it still will heat up the brass. Especially on a bottle neck case, where the explosion is squeezed into a smaller diameter hole. That is a good question, but experience shows that the short duration surface exposure to plasma temperatures of the burning powder does not change the metallurgy that much for a normal firing event. In fact, if it did, there would be big trouble. The lower parts of the case (barrel, web, and head) section are hardened and must retain their hardness in spite of the high gas temperature. The neck and shoulder are made softer by the thermal anneal to expand out and make a gas seal against the chamber and hold that seal during chamber pressure excursion, at which the proportional limit or yield stress of the material in the neck is exceeded. The neck also is expanded out during the interference fit of the projectile into the case during assembly of the round, again, typically beyond the proportional limit to assure a good fit (intended bullet retention force), in spite of slight tolerance variations between bullet diameter and neck diameter. When the neck is resized during case preparation for reloading, the neck material is compressed back to the pre-bullet-insertion shape, then sized on the ID with the expander ball on the sizer die stem. This process is repeated as many times as the case is used. This mechanical expansion and compression beyond yield stress of the material causes cold working and hardening of the brass. Eventually, if used and resized a number of times, the neck will reach a point where bullet insertion will expand the neck brass beyond its new hardened tensile limit and cause cracking of the case neck or, at best, shift the neck retention force higher than originally intended. |
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When the neck is resized during case preparation for reloading, the neck material is compressed back to the pre-bullet-insertion shape, then sized on the ID with the expander ball on the sizer die stem. This process is repeated as many times as the case is used. This mechanical expansion and compression beyond yield stress of the material causes cold working and hardening of the brass. Eventually, if used and resized a number of times, the neck will reach a point where bullet insertion will expand the neck brass beyond its new hardened tensile limit and cause cracking of the case neck or, at best, shift the neck retention force higher than originally intended. If you use a FL sizing die that uses a collet to set the neck diameter you will not have the double sizing of the neck that is caused by an expander ball or mandrel. This results in less working of the brass neck with the resulting longer brass life. |
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Using propane torch bottles....the blue ones you see in hardware stores and the cheapest torch head on medium setting.... I heat brass while spinning in a drill mounted socket for 5 seconds while holding case mouth at tip of hottest portion of flame. Then water quench. To get the "pretty colors" Roque4 and I have speculated moving to a hotter burning gas, like map gas for a shorter duration. Haven't tried it yet. Oxygen is what really heats gas. If Map gas doesn't work by its self you can add an Oxygen tank..... Too much expense for "pretty" is my opinion.. Then again some folks paint bullet tips green.
btw: pictured brass looks to be appropriatly heated. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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When the neck is resized during case preparation for reloading, the neck material is compressed back to the pre-bullet-insertion shape, then sized on the ID with the expander ball on the sizer die stem. This process is repeated as many times as the case is used. This mechanical expansion and compression beyond yield stress of the material causes cold working and hardening of the brass. Eventually, if used and resized a number of times, the neck will reach a point where bullet insertion will expand the neck brass beyond its new hardened tensile limit and cause cracking of the case neck or, at best, shift the neck retention force higher than originally intended. If you use a FL sizing die that uses a collet to set the neck diameter you will not have the double sizing of the neck that is caused by an expander ball or mandrel. This results in less working of the brass neck with the resulting longer brass life. With no annealing I got 76 loadings out of a piece of .22-250 brass a few years ago. I posted here when I did it. A guy on a local gun group who has built an automated annealer and I are going to get together to run some tests on brass life with annealed versus non annealed because everyone SAYS it extends brass life, but thus far no one has been able to point me to empirical data that shows this (I'd love it if someone can). There's good reasons to anneal for the precision shooter, but I'm very curious as to how much brass life is extended, if any. We're starting with .308 brass and may expand the test depending on the results. |
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When the neck is resized during case preparation for reloading, the neck material is compressed back to the pre-bullet-insertion shape, then sized on the ID with the expander ball on the sizer die stem. This process is repeated as many times as the case is used. This mechanical expansion and compression beyond yield stress of the material causes cold working and hardening of the brass. Eventually, if used and resized a number of times, the neck will reach a point where bullet insertion will expand the neck brass beyond its new hardened tensile limit and cause cracking of the case neck or, at best, shift the neck retention force higher than originally intended. If you use a FL sizing die that uses a collet to set the neck diameter you will not have the double sizing of the neck that is caused by an expander ball or mandrel. This results in less working of the brass neck with the resulting longer brass life. With no annealing I got 76 loadings out of a piece of .22-250 brass a few years ago. I posted here when I did it. A guy on a local gun group who has built an automated annealer and I are going to get together to run some tests on brass life with annealed versus non annealed because everyone SAYS it extends brass life, but thus far no one has been able to point me to empirical data that shows this (I'd love it if someone can). There's good reasons to anneal for the precision shooter, but I'm very curious as to how much brass life is extended, if any. We're starting with .308 brass and may expand the test depending on the results. First, that is a remarkable record. At my rate of fire, I should live that long. 
Second, the .22-250 implies a bolt-gun. One could play with the numbers, run a tight chamber neck relief and a low retention force to minimize cold working, perhaps. Did you trim or was it necessary to trim the .22-250 case each reload? |
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With no annealing I got 76 loadings out of a piece of .22-250 brass a few years ago. I posted here when I did it. A guy on a local gun group who has built an automated annealer and I are going to get together to run some tests on brass life with annealed versus non annealed because everyone SAYS it extends brass life, but thus far no one has been able to point me to empirical data that shows this (I'd love it if someone can). There's good reasons to anneal for the precision shooter, but I'm very curious as to how much brass life is extended, if any. We're starting with .308 brass and may expand the test depending on the results. First, that is a remarkable record. At my rate of fire, I should live that long.
Second, the .22-250 implies a bolt-gun. One could play with the numbers, run a tight chamber neck relief and a low retention force to minimize cold working, perhaps. Did you trim or was it necessary to trim the .22-250 case each reload? It was a bolt gun. The post should be in the archives around here, I was pretty detailed about the test and posted updates as I did it. I did check the case length every so often and trimmed every 5-10 loadings. I also posted a brass life test I did on a .50bmg and a batch of .40s&w. Like I said, annealing SHOULD extend brass life, but I'm interested in empirical data that shows such. I mean, if it extends brass life 4-5x if annealed every few loadings then it might be worth it just for the life. If it extends it 10% and you have to anneal every time then it's not worth it just for the additional life (though for precision shooting it's worth it for consistent neck tension). |
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It wouldn't be hard at all to get that many shots out of a case if you neck size, use a bushing die without the expander, and shoot low to mid powered loads.
I got 43 shots out of 223 brass, full length sized without an internal expander, using a Lyman "M" die to expand, annealing every fifth shot shooting above mid loads fed from the mag in an AR. 'Borg ETA, I did have some neck splits at first, so annealed |
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Using propane torch bottles....the blue ones you see in hardware stores and the cheapest torch head on medium setting.... I heat brass while spinning in a drill mounted socket for 5 seconds while holding case mouth at tip of hottest portion of flame. Then water quench. To get the "pretty colors" Roque4 and I have speculated moving to a hotter burning gas, like map gas for a shorter duration. Haven't tried it yet. Oxygen is what really heats gas. If Map gas doesn't work by its self you can add an Oxygen tank..... Too much expense for "pretty" is my opinion.. Then again some folks paint bullet tips green. btw: pictured brass looks to be appropriatly heated. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is how I do it, too. I hit upon ~5 seconds by testing 10 different pieces of polished brass at 1 second intervals. 5 seconds was where I consistently saw the color change and got nice annealing. You don't have to quench the cases if you use this method. |
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Using propane torch bottles....the blue ones you see in hardware stores and the cheapest torch head on medium setting.... I heat brass while spinning in a drill mounted socket for 5 seconds while holding case mouth at tip of hottest portion of flame. Then water quench. To get the "pretty colors" Roque4 and I have speculated moving to a hotter burning gas, like map gas for a shorter duration. Haven't tried it yet. Oxygen is what really heats gas. If Map gas doesn't work by its self you can add an Oxygen tank..... Too much expense for "pretty" is my opinion.. Then again some folks paint bullet tips green. btw: pictured brass looks to be appropriatly heated. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is how I do it, too. I hit upon ~5 seconds by testing 10 different pieces of polished brass at 1 second intervals. 5 seconds was where I consistently saw the color change and got nice annealing. You don't have to quench the cases if you use this method. I spin mine between my gloved fingers. The glove I use is a very light weight skin tight deal. When my fingers get hot, I drop the case in water. It winds up in the flame much longer that 5-10 seconds. By my estimation if I am not burning my fingers I am not softening the base and body of the case. |
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I spin mine between my gloved fingers. The glove I use is a very light weight skin tight deal. When my fingers get hot, I drop the case in water. It winds up in the flame much longer that 5-10 seconds. By my estimation if I am not burning my fingers I am not softening the base and body of the case. What about the neck? |
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Using propane torch bottles....the blue ones you see in hardware stores and the cheapest torch head on medium setting.... I heat brass while spinning in a drill mounted socket for 5 seconds while holding case mouth at tip of hottest portion of flame. Then water quench. To get the "pretty colors" Roque4 and I have speculated moving to a hotter burning gas, like map gas for a shorter duration. Haven't tried it yet. Oxygen is what really heats gas. If Map gas doesn't work by its self you can add an Oxygen tank..... Too much expense for "pretty" is my opinion.. Then again some folks paint bullet tips green. btw: pictured brass looks to be appropriatly heated. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is how I do it, too. I hit upon ~5 seconds by testing 10 different pieces of polished brass at 1 second intervals. 5 seconds was where I consistently saw the color change and got nice annealing. You don't have to quench the cases if you use this method. I spin mine between my gloved fingers. The glove I use is a very light weight skin tight deal. When my fingers get hot, I drop the case in water. It winds up in the flame much longer that 5-10 seconds. By my estimation if I am not burning my fingers I am not softening the base and body of the case. Time spent in flame depends on distance from flame. That said if brass is anywhere in flame for 10 to 15 seconds your over heating case mouth and weakening it. Sure your protecting case head (maybe if water quenched to stop heat from traveling) I wouldn't recommend this method. |
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Using propane torch bottles....the blue ones you see in hardware stores and the cheapest torch head on medium setting.... I heat brass while spinning in a drill mounted socket for 5 seconds while holding case mouth at tip of hottest portion of flame. Then water quench. To get the "pretty colors" Roque4 and I have speculated moving to a hotter burning gas, like map gas for a shorter duration. Haven't tried it yet. Oxygen is what really heats gas. If Map gas doesn't work by its self you can add an Oxygen tank..... Too much expense for "pretty" is my opinion.. Then again some folks paint bullet tips green. btw: pictured brass looks to be appropriatly heated. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile This is how I do it, too. I hit upon ~5 seconds by testing 10 different pieces of polished brass at 1 second intervals. 5 seconds was where I consistently saw the color change and got nice annealing. You don't have to quench the cases if you use this method. I spin mine between my gloved fingers. The glove I use is a very light weight skin tight deal. When my fingers get hot, I drop the case in water. It winds up in the flame much longer that 5-10 seconds. By my estimation if I am not burning my fingers I am not softening the base and body of the case. Time spent in flame depends on distance from flame. That said if brass is anywhere in flame for 10 to 15 seconds your over heating case mouth and weakening it. Sure your protecting case head (maybe if water quenched to stop heat from traveling) I wouldn't recommend this method. There is such a thing as over-annealing. I think it's smart to work up whatever your method of choice is using some spare cases and find out exactly how long in the flame it takes to develop a faint color change on a polished case neck. It seems to me that many of the internet-recommended methods will over-anneal casenecks. |
| Thanks for all the input fellas, figured a couple things out. First the torch I was using was not a pencil torch it spread the heat way to much to be of any use, secondly I was holding the case way to close to the torch I backed the case out to the tip of the bright blue flame thats in the middle was just touching the case neck and they heated right up. |
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Thanks for all the input fellas, figured a couple things out. First the torch I was using was not a pencil torch it spread the heat way to much to be of any use, secondly I was holding the case way to close to the torch I backed the case out to the tip of the bright blue flame thats in the middle was just touching the case neck and they heated right up. Glad you got it figured out. I spin my 223 brass in a cordless screw driver (400rpm) at the tip of the inner blue flame cone while counting to 12 (the moment immediately before any "glow" of the brass) , then drop into water bucket. By holding at an angle facing slightly away from the flame (pointing downstream), I can control how much heat gets to the shoulder area. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html |
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Those of you interested in quantifying the effects of annealing on your prepared brass, might be interested in the Ames portable superficial rockwell hardness tester model S on bid now on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ames-rockwell-hardness-tester-model-s-machinists-tool-/270699932598?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f06f92bb6
I bought one off of Ebay about 1 year ago. The model S is no longer actively supported by the company, but there is not much to go wrong, particuarly if the known hardness brass calibration block(s) is there for reference. I bought a used set of steel pin gages to act as backstops and use the vee block anvil that comes with the tester to check neck material hardness in a pseudo non-destructive manner. I say pseudo because the penetrator squishes the brass enough to change the ID slightly, particularly if you take several sample readings. So, I propose setting up your annealing process and sacrificing a few cases, both new unfired, and your annealed unknowns to determine if the annealing process is bringing the temper back to where you started new. The goal is to quantify the desired effects of annealing on a relative basis. As with most experimental test data there will be scatter so achieving the goal is not as straight forward as it first might sound. But, it beats guessing at colors or pinching the neck with handtools and such. Here is the Model S in action: 
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